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  1. I just learned that Adobe Premier Elements (the light/consumer version of the Adobe editor) does not support lossless video codecs such as Huffyuv or Lagarith. The user cannot import and use video compressed with either.

    Can anyone suggest a light/consumer-level video editor that supports the Huffyuv or Lagarith codecs?

    Vegas Studio has a good reputation, but despite much research I cannot determine if it supports Huffyuv or Lagarith codecs.

    If pertinent, know that I wish to capture VHS video using VirtualDub (applying Huffyuv or Lagarith compression), then import into a video editor.

    Thank you.
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  2. Does not support at all?

    I think they all support huffyuv, lagarith etc... , as long as you have matching x86 vs. x64 version of the codec installed. But the issue is they treat YUV lossless codecs as RGB, and there are various issues , the potentially bad one is clipping in the RGB conversion

    Vegas works in studio range RGB normally (Y 0-255 <=> RGB 0-255) , where the black level is RGB16, white is RGB 235 (it's setup to work in this range) . Once codec that will work is magicyuv with the full range yuv option checkmarked, and that will preserve the range. (You still get minor rounding losses from the YUV>RGB conversion

    Free/open source software like shotcut treat lossless YUV codecs as YUV , but they have some issues with proper interlaced workflows

    I check recently again, and x264 was truly lossless in Adobe, the only lossless YUV codec that was truly lossless as YUV (all the others get RGB treatment). You can test in Elements
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  3. poisondeathray ---

    Thank you for your response.

    I currently have Adobe Premier ELEMENTS (I'm a beginner). After capturing VHS video using a separate program (such as VirtualDub2 or PotPlayer) wherein I used Huffyuv compression (codec downloaded from this site), only the audio --- NOT THE VIDEO --- loads into the Adobe Premier Elements project assets screen or into the timeline.

    (By contrast, when the original compression was, for example, h.264, it loads into Premier Elements without problem).

    After investigation (online Premier Elements support), their stated list of "SUPPORTED" video codecs did not include any lossless codecs, such as Huffyuv or Lagarith. It only then occurred to me that that was one of the ways that Adobe crippled the ELEMENTS version of Premier.

    So, even though I am quite new to all of this, I am about as certain as I can be (subject to the paragraph below) that a VHS video captured with lossless compression such as Huffyuv or Lagarith cannot be used in Adobe Premier ELEMENTS.

    Notwithstanding all of the above, I must add that I do not know whether the Huffyuv codec that I downloaded from this site is 32-bit or 64-bit. In order to install the Huffyuv codec on my Windows 7-64-bit machine, I had to go through the convoluted process described by lordsmith of this site. (It does show-up in the list of codecs under the "Video Compression" dialog in VirtualDub2.) I seem to recall that those who recommended VirtualDub advised to install the 32-bit version since that's where most of the filters work.

    Thus, before we even get to the YUV vs, RGB issues, do you believe that video captured with either the Huffyuv or Lagarith codec should load properly in, and be usable by, Premier ELEMENTS, and thus my problem is the 32-bit vs. 64-bit issue? If so, how would one address this? Should/can I, for example, download another version of the Huffyuv codec so that, in the VirtualDub2 codec list, I would observe two Huffyuv codecs: 32-bit and 64-bit?

    As you can tell, I'm a bit confused here.

    Thanks.
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  4. In general, you need x64 codec versions installed for x64 programs. So if Elements was x64, you need to follow the x64 install instructions for that codec. Check vdub2 x86 and x64, does huffyuv show up on the compression list for both ?
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  5. poisondeathray,

    Please excuse that I’m taking this one step at a time, so I’ll place the matter of Adobe Premier Elements aside, and focus on Huffyuv and Lagarith codecs.

    When I began this venture into converting my VHS video to digital (ultimately for burning to DVD), the “word from higher-up” was capture to either the MP-4 or AVI container with the H.264 codec. So I did, and the captures imported into Adobe Premier Elements (64-bit) without problem.

    Then I found this “VideoHelp” website. Over and over I read that since I intend post-capture editing, I should instead capture with a lossless codec such as Huffyuv and Lagarith as that would provide a much better foundation for editing. The concept seemed obvious, so I tried it out, along with VirtuialDub.

    When I downloaded VirtualDub, I read that I should use the 32-bit version since that version supported many, many filters. When viewing the “Compression” dialog there was no codec for Huffyuv or Lagarith listed. I downloaded the Huffyuv codec from this website. I had no idea whether it was 32-bit or 64-bit, and did not know that it mattered. In any event, after installing it on my Windows-7, 64-bit machine (which required lordsmith’s work-around to get it installed), “Huffyuv v. 2.1.1” appeared in the “Compression”. I assumed I was good to go.

    In my learning/practicing, I captured using VirtualDub with the “Huffyuv v. 2.1.1” codec. Upon loading the resulting AVI file into Adobe Premier Elements (64-bit), only the audio ---- but no video ---- appeared. I tested this several times; same result. Since video H.264 files, but not the video Huffyuv file, imported into Adobe Premier Elements, I checked the Adobe Premier Elements online guide. There was a list of "SUPPORTED" video codecs, which included H.264 and others; it did not include any lossless codecs, such as Huffyuv or Lagarith. From this I concluded that VirtualDub captures using Huffyuv compression were a no-go with Adobe Premier Elements.

    From some additional reading on this site, yesterday I installed VirtualDub2. Based on your comments (see above), I just looked into VirtualDub2 to see what was what.

    In reviewing the “Compression” dialog of 32-bit VirtualDub2, I see that there is “Huffyuv v. 2.1.1” (that I manually installed several days ago) . . . and a codec named “FFMPEG Huffyuv lossless codec”. QUESTION: For the purposes at hand, are these the same?

    Then I looked into the folder for 64-bit VirtualDub. In the “Compression” dialog I see that there is a codec named “FFMPEG Huffyuv lossless codec”. However, “Huffyuv v. 2.1.1” is not listed. I assume what’s going on is that the manually downloaded “Huffyuv v. 2.1.1” is 32-bit only and therefore it shows up only in the 32-bit version of VirtualDub2.

    Before I end-up breaking something, would it be your thought that if I had originally captured my VHS video using the 64-bit version of VirtualDub and applied the “FFMPEG Huffyuv lossless codec” (assuming it is effectually the same as “Huffyuv v. 2.1.1”), that the resulting AVI, audio AND VIDEO, would have imported and worked in Adobe Premier Elements ---- even though Adobe does not list it as a “supported” codec?

    (Sorry that it took so many words to describe my somewhat frustrating experience.)

    Thank you.
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  6. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post

    In reviewing the “Compression” dialog of 32-bit VirtualDub2, I see that there is “Huffyuv v. 2.1.1” (that I manually installed several days ago) . . . and a codec named “FFMPEG Huffyuv lossless codec”. QUESTION: For the purposes at hand, are these the same?
    No.
    If you click on it in vdub2, you will see FFmpeg Huffyuv has a different fourcc "FFVH" . “Huffyuv v. 2.1.1" is "hfyu"


    Then I looked into the folder for 64-bit VirtualDub. In the “Compression” dialog I see that there is a codec named “FFMPEG Huffyuv lossless codec”. However, “Huffyuv v. 2.1.1” is not listed. I assume what’s going on is that the manually downloaded “Huffyuv v. 2.1.1” is 32-bit only and therefore it shows up only in the 32-bit version of VirtualDub2.

    Before I end-up breaking something, would it be your thought that if I had originally captured my VHS video using the 64-bit version of VirtualDub and applied the “FFMPEG Huffyuv lossless codec” (assuming it is effectually the same as “Huffyuv v. 2.1.1”), that the resulting AVI, audio AND VIDEO, would have imported and worked in Adobe Premier Elements ---- even though Adobe does not list it as a “supported” codec?


    "AVI" imported codecs into most editors will need the AVI version of huffyuv , which is "hfyu" . The "codec" includes an encoder and a decoder . The NLE requires the decoder portion in order to decode. "AVI" codecs are also known as "VFW" or video for windows codecs.

    A x64 NLE will not be able to use the x86 huffyuv decoder, so you get black screen, since you are missing the x64 huffyuv decoder

    It's unlikely that you will "break" anything by installed x64 version of a VFW codec. I have both x86, x64 versions of hfyu installed concurrently - many people do.

    Those codecs are not listed as "supported" for Premiere Pro either;
    https://helpx.adobe.com/ca/premiere-pro/using/supported-file-formats.html

    "Supported" means natively supported, "out of the box" so to speak. These are 3rd party codecs, rely on 3rd party decoders.

    Will it work for sure? I don't know , I don't have Elements, but it should. This is how it works for Premiere Pro and most Windows NLE's (and other Windows programs)
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  7. poisondeathhray —

    Thank you.

    I now understand that for 64-bit VitualDub2, I need the AVI version of huffyuv, which is "hfyu", in turn the x64 huffyuv decoder. Interesting that, apparently, the 64-bit version of VirtualDub2 comes with the Lagarith lossless codec (observed in the “Compression” dialog) but not the 64-bit huffyuv decoder.

    Any idea where I can find the 64-bit huffyuv decoder?

    Related, since many on this site also recommend the Lagarith lossless codec, and it comes with the 64-bit version of VirtualDub2, I just did a sample VHS capture using the Lagarith lossless codec. I opened Adobe Premier Elements and loaded this AVI. As with the earlier test of the 32-bit Huffyuv, only the audio portion imported; the video did not.

    Back to square one. Perhaps an AVI made with the 64-bit huffyuv decoder will “work” with Adobe Premier Elements.

    Thank you.
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  8. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    Any idea where I can find the 64-bit huffyuv decoder?
    There are instructions somewhere on this site on how to install it. It' s not straightfoward. The actual x64 .dll , huffyuv.dll, should be found in Windows/System32 (all x64 codec .dlls will be found here)


    Related, since many on this site also recommend the Lagarith lossless codec, and it comes with the 64-bit version of VirtualDub2, I just did a sample VHS capture using the Lagarith lossless codec. I opened Adobe Premier Elements and loaded this AVI. As with the earlier test of the 32-bit Huffyuv, only the audio portion imported; the video did not.
    I think the actual lagarith installer includes both x86, x64 versions (Windows/System32 for x64, Windows/SysWOW64 for x86) - there are lagarith.dll's in both locations, just like there are for huffyuv (for me) . That's what another program such as a NLE is using. They can't use anything in the vdub2 directory such as the bundled lagarith. They have to be system installed VFW codecs

    For example, ut video does it this way too. (A single installer installs both x86, x64 versions)
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  9. poisondeathhray —

    Ok, I found that this website had both the 32-bit and 64-bit versions of the Huffyuv codec available for download.

    I just created a sample VHS capture using the 64-bit Huffyuv codec in VirtualDub2, 64-bit. I opened Adobe Premier Elements and loaded this AVI. As with the earlier tests, only the audio portion imported; the video did not.

    In frustration but bowing to reality, should I give up on Huffyuv or Lagarith compression and just capture to H.264 (either AVI or MP-4) and simply do my editing with this lossy format?

    Thanks.
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  10. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    poisondeathhray —

    Ok, I found that this website had both the 32-bit and 64-bit versions of the Huffyuv codec available for download.

    I just created a sample VHS capture using the 64-bit Huffyuv codec in VirtualDub2, 64-bit. I opened Adobe Premier Elements and loaded this AVI. As with the earlier tests, only the audio portion imported; the video did not.
    Did you verify it was installed correctly ? Does it show up in vdub2 x64 compression list ?

    Earlier , did you actually install lagarith ? Or just use vdub2's bundled one ?


    In frustration but bowing to reality, should I give up on Huffyuv or Lagarith compression and just capture to H.264 (either AVI or MP-4) and simply do my editing with this lossy format?

    Thanks.
    h264 doesn't have to be lossy . x264 is a h264 encoder that can encode lossless. - It's the actually only lossless YUV format accepted by Adobe Premiere Pro , that is truly lossless. All those other ones, huffyuv, ut video, lagarith, magic yuv, are not. That's not the codec's fault, it's just they way they are handled by other programs . I don't know if Elements accepts the lossless version, but you can test it

    For x264, at QP1, the quality is significantly higher than even ProRes XQ4444 or Cineform Filmscan3 . Those latter ones are professional quality codecs that are used for mastering. At QP1, it will be accepted by almost everything, and still be treated as YUV .

    Don't bend over backwards - Lossless vs. lossy is a non issue, expecially if you're going to DVD. You won't notice the difference even on single frames. By all means, keep a truly lossless version for archival. But for the NLE and producing a DVD, it's not going to make a difference in terms of quality
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  11. Poisondeathray ----

    Yes, I see the Huffyuv 2.1.1 codec in the Compression dialog under VirtualDub2, 64-bit. When I created my sample VHS capture I was sure to designate that codec.

    I did not personally install Lagarith. It came with Vdub2's bundled program.

    As mentioned earlier, neither Huffyuv nor Lagarith works with my Adobe Premier Elements. I’ve tested some other codecs, H.264 example; they import into Premier Elements without problem.

    I also did not know that H.264 could be lossless. Never heard of that. Where might I find it for download? You mentioned x.264 at “QP1”. I don’t know what “QP1” is. Is that a reference to a website where I might find the version of x264 that you noted?

    And finally, if you suggest I cease punishing myself and just use “regular” h264 (or X.264), would you suggest I use container MP-4 or AVI? While VirtualDub is limited to AVI, PotPlayer can create video files with either the MP-4 or AVI container, as well as others.

    Thank you.
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  12. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Codecs work with their supported APIs and platforms. This can vary quite a bit.

    (example)
    For Macs, there was the old Quicktime (32bit only) platform and their installable codecs for the supported MOV container file format. Newer Macs only support the AVFoundation (64bit only) platform. And they hardly have any 3rd-party codec support, so what Apple provides are the ONLY codecs you can choose from. Note, still using MOV format, which means much confusion if moving from old Mac devices & storage to new Macs.
    Luckily -SOME- codecs are supported also by ffmpeg platform (likely only in 64bit on Macs), allowing conversion, storage, etc. But if you intend on working with standard Mac apps, they'll be using the AVFoundation platform.


    On the Windows side, where you're working, there are multiple APIs & platforms:
    1. the old VFW - video-for-windows (VCM, ACM) platform. Almost entirely 32bit but there are exceptions. Using codecs contained mainly in the AVI container file format.
    2. the newer DirectShow platform. Both 32bit and 64bit. Using codecs contained in the AVI and WMV, and other file formats.
    3. the newest MediaFoundation platform. Both 32bit and 64bit, but predominantly 64bit. Using codecs contained in different file formats (AVI, WMV, MKV, MP4, etc)
    4. the Windows version of Quicktime (32bit only), using codecs contained in the MOV file format. BUT, only a subset of what was available on the Macs (many MOV codecs were Mac-only).
    5. other platforms, such as ffmpeg (32 or 64 bit). It primarily uses codecs that match their supporting containers (e.g. WMV9 uses primarily ASF/WMV container, but also can be in AVI). Though strictly speaking, ffmpeg isn't a platform.

    Note: h264 and similar is NOT only a codec, but a FAMILY of codecs in a standard (varying in profile & level). "X264" is a specific codec implementation that supports a subset of those h264 profiles & levels, and works with specific bitness & APIs/platforms. The good thing about using something like h264 (and using a common profile & level such as MP@ML) is that the codec that READS the the compressed stream does not have to be the same as the codec that WRITES the stream, because they are all trying to conform to the same standard.

    Bottom line: Your capture app AND your editing app are going to need to agree on EVERYTHING in order to work together (32 vs. 64 bit, platform, supported container, color system & color subsampling.). Though you might skirt some of those issues using a standard like h264.

    Because of this, one way you could make your life easier would be by using Premiere Elements as both your capturing and your editing app (yes, it can do both).
    By default, P.E. can only do DV (saved as Type2 DV-AVI) or HDV (saved as MPEG2 TS) as capture formats. If you have a hardware capture device or card, it SHOULD support additional capture options (possibly both codec and container).


    HTH,

    Scott
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  13. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post

    Yes, I see the Huffyuv 2.1.1 codec in the Compression dialog under VirtualDub2, 64-bit. When I created my sample VHS capture I was sure to designate that codec.
    It might be an Elements limitation, not sure

    I did not personally install Lagarith. It came with Vdub2's bundled program.
    Then you would expect it not to work in other programs; they can't "see" vdub2's folder

    I also did not know that H.264 could be lossless. Never heard of that. Where might I find it for download? You mentioned x.264 at “QP1”. I don’t know what “QP1” is. Is that a reference to a website where I might find the version of x264 that you noted?
    I mentioned it several times in your other threads

    x264 is bundled with vdub2 "x264 8bit h.264/mpeg-4 AVC" , you can export different containers with vdub2

    The VFW version is known as x264 VFW , typically VFW format means AVI container
    https://www.videohelp.com/software/x264-VFW


    QP is quantizer parameter. QP 0 is mathematically lossless . Higher values are more lossy, smaller filesizes. QP 1 is the highest quality, but still considered "lossy" .

    For realtime capture, you'd usually want a GOP length of 1 (intra), for interlaced don't forget to set the field order (top field first vs. bottom field first)

    Premiere pro has no problems with 4:2:2, but Elements might only accept "consumer" 4:2:0 . You have to run some tests



    And finally, if you suggest I cease punishing myself and just use “regular” h264 (or X.264), would you suggest I use container MP-4 or AVI? While VirtualDub is limited to AVI, PotPlayer can create video files with either the MP-4 or AVI container, as well as others.
    Either should work fine in intra (I frame mode) . MP4 generally works better overall, especially when a stream has b-frames . When possible, MP4 is preferred

    When in MP4 , the field order, aspect ratio are usually conveyed properly , and automatically. AVI container sometimes you need to manual override in the editor
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  14. Thank you.

    At this point I think using h.264 is what I'll do, but also capture a lossless version for archival purposes.

    Finally, since my editing will be in an Adobe editor, and you have mentioned the YUV>RGB conversion problem (0-255 to 16-235) when Adobe is used, and since, at least in PotPlayer I believe I can tell the program to capture VHS as RGB (perhaps "convert to RGB" would be more accurate). Would you suggest I set the capture program to YUV 4.2.2 or to RGB?

    Thank you.
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  15. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post

    At this point I think using h.264 is what I'll do, but also capture a lossless version for archival purposes.

    Finally, since my editing will be in an Adobe editor, and you have mentioned the YUV>RGB conversion problem (0-255 to 16-235) when Adobe is used, and since, at least in PotPlayer I believe I can tell the program to capture VHS as RGB (perhaps "convert to RGB" would be more accurate). Would you suggest I set the capture program to YUV 4.2.2 or to RGB?
    Ideally you want to capture YUV. If you capture in RGB, you have the same RGB clipping problems

    I don't know if potplayer does it correctly or cleanly; or if it does some operations in between
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  16. Thank you, Cornucopia (Scott) ----

    I'm not having a problem capturing, whether h.264, Huffyuv or other. The problem is that my Adobe Premier Elements editor will not work with captures using Huffyuv, Lagarith, etc.

    Yes, Premier Elements has a capture function, but it's primitive. The PotPlayer, although primarily known as a player program, has a fairly powerful and option-laden capture function that is MUCH better than the capture function of Premier Elements. In fact, the many capture options and functions in PotPlayer are likely daunting to most non-professionals. But post-capture is where VirtualDub seems to shine, with all of its filters, the resizing function, and more. But using VirtualDub means an AVI output ---- which Premier Elements can accept but, in this scenario, poisondeathray suggests MP-4 instead.

    I'm guessing that if I had purchased Vagas Studio instead of Premier Elements, I could have captured using Huffyuv or Lagarith and the editing program would have accepted such files. In any event, I've learned as much as possible in the past week or so (I've pounded at it for hours and hours). Now it's time to convert my old family VHS tapes, lest I expire before the job is completed.

    Thanks again.
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  17. [/QUOTE]Ideally you want to capture YUV. If you capture in RGB, you have the same RGB clipping problems

    I don't know if potplayer does it correctly or cleanly; or if it does some operations in between[/QUOTE]
    __________________________________________________ ________


    Poisondeathray ---

    You obviously have only professional-grade equipment and software, but for the hell of it, look at PotPlayer. While primarily known as a player, it has incredibly detailed and powerful capture functions ---- way beyond what most amateurs would ever understand. (There is NO manual or user guide for PotPlayer. It's just "there" to use!)

    If one were having problems capturing with VirtualDub (the out-of-sync audio, for example), I could see capturing with PotPlayer, applying some filters in VirtualDub, then editing in Adobe Premier Elements. But due to the VirtualDub part, output would have to be AVI whereas you suggest capturing to MP-4.

    Thank you so much for all your help.
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  18. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    look at PotPlayer.
    I'd rather not - read up on potplayer discussions and how it "calls home." It's known spyware, as violated GPL ffmpeg licensing in the past (look up "ffmpeg hall of shame"). If it works for you... great

    But due to the VirtualDub part, output would have to be AVI whereas you suggest capturing to MP-4.
    The process of capturing AVI is ok for I-frame formats . "AVI" - as a container - is not handled as well in other programs like NLE's. Certain formats like long GOP are more prone to decoding issues in AVI container. If you just re-wrap it into a MP4 container or transport stream, some of those decoding issues go away. Also , there are various issues with metadata handling, field order signalling in AVI container, that tend to be more consistent with MP4 container . AVI will work if you capture as an I-frame format, but you might need to take some extra steps to interpret/override a few things. eg. If you bring a lagarith AVI into Premiere Pro, the field order might be incorrect, you just manually override it. If the aspect ratio is incorrect, you just override it. MP4, especially AVC in MP4, transmit that type of metadata more consistently . The only AVI format that transmits that metadata well is DV-AVI (only because that is part of the codec, not container) - but you're dealing with lossless or near lossless formats, so I'm assuming you want to avoid it
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  19. Thanks for the information.

    Time for me to test and settle on a final workflow.
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