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  1. ..
    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:06.
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  2. Depending on your final output you will almost certainly have to re-encode whichever method you use.

    Since it's only a two minute clip, try this:

    Resize with VirtualDub and bring it into your project.
    Also bring the original file into your project.
    Put both versions into your timeline stacked on separate tracks.
    Switch back and forth between the two to see which you prefer.
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  3. ..
    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:06.
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  4. There are dozens different types of scaling algorithms. Generally a NLE uses a soft bicubic to prevent aliasing. It's generally a softer scaling algorithm. If you used something like "lanczos3" in vdub it will be a "sharper" upscale.

    It depends on the scenario you are facing. I suspect 480x360 public domain video will be soft and a sharper upscale would be beneficial. On the other hand, if it's "noisy", you might upscale sharpened artifacts

    Or, if the goal was to "match" the existing VHS segments, there might be other approaches .


    By the way, I’ve not before used VirtualDub. It appears that after resizing, I can save the project either as:

    EXPORT>Save Old Format AVI, or
    EXPORT>Save Segmented AVI.
    To save a video:

    In vdub classic it's "file > save as avi"

    In vdub2 it's "file > save video" and that gives you more options other than AVI

    Generally you want to select a compression first (video > compression) , otherwise it will export uncompressed video
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    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:06.
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  6. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    Based on what you wrote, I assume that in VirtualDub2 I should "SAVE" as AVI since I would then begin my editing in Premier Elements with an uncompressed file. Is that not correct?
    Yes, but uncompressed files are very large


    If "Save as AVI" or "Save Video" is the correct execution for the purposes described above, what then is "EXPORT"?
    In vdub classic, export is for other formats, image sequences , external encoder

    Save as old format AVI uses an older AVI spec AVI 1.0 . It's for some older legacy software compatibility. Don't use it
    Save as segmented AVI breaks the AVI into separate AVI segments. Generally you wouldn't want to use it
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    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:07.
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  8. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post

    In light of all this, are you in favor of my SAVING my VirtualDub-captured VHS projects as UNCOMPRESSED AVI?
    Filesizes are large, but if you hardware is sufficient, go ahead. It makes editing more difficult. I probably would not

    You can use lossless compression to reduce the filesize, but do you need truly lossless ? Most professional workflows use something "near lossless" like cineform, prores, dnxhr for intermediates, even Hollywood movies, TV shows, Netflix productions

    You won't notice the difference in the end result



    If it's something that's priceless , or archival, you might consider using a true lossless workflow. But if that's the case, you'd just make multiple backups all the original clips and references




    Fine details, feel free to ignore this -

    There are different types of "Uncompressed AVI " . Different pixel formats, subsampling. By default, vdub will use YV12 for 8bit 4:2:0 uncompressed, and YUY2 for 8bit 4:2:2 uncompressed

    Adobe (and most Windows NLE's) require 8bit 4:2:2 "UYVY" to get true lossless uncompressed YUV treatment, otherwise they get converted to RGB . There are no lossy compression losses, but there are rounding lossless and colorspace conversion losses. Most NLE's do not support 4:2:0 uncompressed, and if they do, they require "IYUV" fourcc

    In Adobe, most lossless YUV codecs are not truly "lossless", in that they also get converted to RGB

    If you need a truly mathematically lossless workflow for input/output, it's a bit technical. You'd have to upsample 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 using nearest neighbor algorithm, then export in 4:2:2 UYVY configuration, then downsample back to 4:2:0 using nearest neighbor
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 13th Aug 2020 at 13:05.
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  9. Try nnedi3_rpow2 in AviSynth.
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  10. ..
    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:07.
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  11. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    Until today, I did (do) not know whether capturing with the combination of the Huffyuv codec and the AVI format results in files that are uncompressed or slightly compressed. I went back into VirtualDub and just noticed that in screen “Video > Compression”, the first option in the list of codecs is “Uncompressed RGB/YVbCr” (never noticed that before).

    Do I interpret this to mean that if I REALLY wanted uncompressed video, this is what I would select when setting-up my capture workflow? It would seem such, but I don’t know for sure. But if that it is correct, then I must assume that the Huffyuv codec does NOT result in uncompressed video, but some a form of highly efficient lossless file.

    Do I have that about right?
    Yes, video > compression > uncompressed RGB/YCbCr means uncompressed video. Huffyuv is a lossless codec, it applies lossless compression. Lossless compression means when you decode or decompress it, you get back the original uncompressed file. It's similar to zip or rar file archive compression .


    (These VHS videos are, to us, very important family videos. So long as it is not incomprehensibly difficult, I would like to begin my Adobe Premier Elements editing with the best source material reasonably possible, thus my willingness to redo my MP-4/H.264 captures to AVI/Huffyuv.)
    That's a good reason - more importantly for archival reasons


    A final question: In VirtualDub2, I observe the following three relevant options ----

    File > Save Project
    File > Save Project As
    File > Save Video

    My I assume that the two “Save Project” options are for temporary/intermediate saves, where one is later going to return to work on the project, and thus there is no re-encoding . . .

    Whereas, the “File > Save Video” re-encodes the project then saves it in AVI format?
    Yes - Save Project just saves the settings/filters that you've applied. There is no re-encoding, no video is being encoded.

    Save Project As - just saves an additional iteration of a project. It's like manually doing an incremental backup copy of the project file with a different name. Nothing is being encoded either

    Save Video encodes the video (and not necessarily as AVI if you 're using vdub2)



    Re-encoding an uncompressed or lossless video with uncompressed, or lossless codec results in no degradation, provided the involved software handles everything properly, not additional colorspace or sampling conversions

    eg. Adobe does not handle huffyuv as YUV, it gets converted to RGB . This is potentially problematic for several reasons. If your capture has usable highlight data >Y=235 - that will get clipped, that's the biggest one you might notice. If your captures were all within Y 16-235, you should be safe. The other issues like rounding errors are not really noticable , but you can measure the differences, it's more of an academic thing and on VHS material you won't notice the difference
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    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:07.
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  13. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post

    If Huffyuv does not "play nice" with Adobe Premier, another lossless codec I've seen mentioned many times on this site is "Lagarith". Would you recommend that instead, or, for purposes of carrying over to Adobe Premier, are the two codecs about the same?
    They are about the same, but lagarith offers higher compression (smaller filesizes).

    But most lossless YUV codecs , including lagarith, huffyuv, ut video, magicyuv get converted to RGB in Adobe, so you will encounter the same problems. Some older versions of Premiere Pro CC accepted lossless x264 as YUV, but I doubt elements does, and newer versions have changed behaviour as well

    If your captures are adjusted to Y 16-235, using huffyuv won't be a big problem . For the minor rounding error issues, you won't notice the difference in the final export if you view it on DVD, or web video, those sorts of things. It's negligible. But the levels issue can potentially be important, if you have usable data Y<16, Y>235. Those are salvagable in YUV. You're going to keep the original huffyuv and archive it anyways (or you should be), so what you bring into Premiere is less important

    "Uncompressed" has the same problems too; unless it's one of the "special" versions. That's what the little speech above was about . "UYVY" in 8bit 4:2:2 configuration gets treatment as YUV in Adobe . If you just save "uncompressed" from vdub2 as 4:2:2 , it will be "YUY2" and get RGB treatment
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    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:07.
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  15. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post

    Practicably speaking, my choices for capture of VHS seem to be:

    1) MP-4/H.264 (my original/learning approach), or
    2) AVI/Huffyuv.

    No doubt there are trade-offs with either (or any), but all considered, would you suggest that I implement the AVI/Huffyuv? It seems to be the suggested method by members of this website, but then again they may be using an editor other than Adobe.


    MP4/h264 can be lossless too . h264 can be placed in AVI as well. MP4 is just a container. AVI is just a container.

    I recommend lossless for important things like family videos , so you can archive them . Make multiple backups. This is a separate issue than what is being done later.

    Most commercial NLE's have this issue with "lossless" YUV codecs. (They are not truly lossless because of the colorspace conversions, and that has potential ramifications, some minor but the levels clipping can potentially be bad, because that can be "good" data you're throwing away, like shadow detail, or bright cloud detail)


    The biggest quality loss is going to be from MPEG2 DVD encoding.

    Most VHS is "noisy". The biggest subjective quality improvement you can do is process it with filters, clean it up, sharpen it, those sorts of things. At least it will be more enjoyable to watch. You still have the lossless original backup copies stored somewhere
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  16. ..
    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:08.
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  17. PCM WAV is not supported in MP4 container by open source muxers, such as the one used by vdub2
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    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:08.
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    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:08.
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  20. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    poisondeathray ----

    Although I am new to digital video and know very little, I do have many years of hobbyist experience with Photoshop (the full version). As such, I fully understand your concern and caution with respect to the compressing of shadows and blowout of highlights where a VHS video capture includes data outside the Y 16-235 range. Indeed, from my experience with still images and Photoshop, I’d say that there can be lots of important data below 16 and above 235.

    Your specific comments focus on the matter that if one captures using the Huffyuv or Lagarith codecs then use Adobe Premier Elements (or most other NLE editors) for editing, the conversion of the color data from Huffyuv or Lagarith into the Adobe editor will result in the “Y 16-235 problem”. (And here it was just recently that I learned that I should be capturing with a lossless codec such as Huffyuv or Lagarith, rather than the MP-4/H.264 method that I initially learned!)

    So . . . now that I am aware of the potential “Y 16-235 problem”, it naturally leads me to ask:
    Knowing that my projects are all about capturing VHS video in VirtualDub, fixing them a bit in VirtualDub, then full editing in Adobe Premier Elements, can you recommend a lossless compression codec that will not result in the “Y 16-235 problem”, but still be usable/doable by an amateur hobbyist?

    Thank you.

    Yes, you can just adjust your levels during capture ~ Y16-235, either in hardware or software during capture , or after (but before Adobe) and you should be ok

    x264 (AVC encoder) using QP0 is still lossless in Adobe. It's really the only "lossless" YUV codec that works in Adobe, as YUV . But that might not apply to Elements. For example it's lossless in Resolve too, but only the "studio" version. The "free" version can't import it.

    It's more difficult to check in Elements, because you don't have a waveform monitor. As soon you import a known video with overbrights/darks (ie. values Y<16 , or >235) , you will see them clipped on a waveform if it's not being handled as YUV . It will be impossible to bring values >235 down, or values <16 up into range. For Elements, you'd have to adjust the levels and check (see if you can recover the superbrights), or export and check



    You got to ask yourself if you really "need" lossless, when the final format is something like DVD. It won't make a difference on the DVD if you use a high quality intermediate for editing (Of course use lossless for archival purposes, store it somewhere, multiple copies)
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  21. ..
    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:08.
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  22. Beware that many of the filters in VirtualDub(2) work in RGB after a rec.601 conversion. So you may have the same crushing problems there.
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  23. ..
    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:09.
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  24. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    jagabo, can you tell me what a "rec.601 conversion" is?
    It's one of the standards for (among other things) converting YUV to/from RGB.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._601

    It performs the contrast stretch that poisondeathray is warning you about.


    Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    Do you think there is a better approach to avoid the Y16-235 crushing problem?
    Just be sure to adjust levels with one of the filters that works in YUV, not RGB. On the Filters dialog you can enable the Show Image Formats option to see what color format the filter is working in. One filter that works in YUV is Brightness/Contrast. The Histogram filter shows levels after a conversion to RGB -- so it crushes Y<16 and Y>235.

    Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    Although 16-235 would not be acceptable for a still image in Photoshop (assuming there is data outside that range), perhaps I'm making too much of the matter in terms of 1980s VHS video. Any thoughts?
    If you don't want to lose the darkest darks and brightest brights you care about this.
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  25. Here's an extreme example. See what you can get out of the attached Lagarith AVI.

    Image
    [Attachment 54548 - Click to enlarge]
    Image Attached Files
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  26. ..
    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:09.
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  27. Every pixel in that AVI file has a luma value of less than 16. It's possible to recover those pixels with the right filters. That's what I showed in the screen cap. Obviously, you wouldn't capture a VHS tape like this. But if your VHS cap contains Y<16 values they can be made visible as very dark shades of grey, not just a flat black.
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    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:09.
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