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  1. Where to Resize?

    I have an ongoing project in Adobe Premier Elements where the original VHS video was shot at 640x480. I captured the VHS video as AVI and loaded into Premier Elements. All is good so far.

    Now I wish to add to the Premier Elements project a two-minute (public-domain) video. As downloaded, it is 480x360 MP-4.

    If I load this 480x360 file as a “project asset” into Premier Elements, the program will force it to my project’s stated 640x480 resolution. However, I am new to VirtualDub and in noodling around I came upon the “Resize” filter. I tested resizing the aforesaid two-minute video from 480x360 to 640x480, thinking that this then could be loaded into my Premier Elements project as then “native” to the project ---- no further recoding.

    Realizing that this is a theory question, which route would the experienced Premier and VirtualDub users take: simply load the 480x360 video into my Premier Elements 640x480 project, or first load the 480x360 video into VirtualDFub, resize it there and then load onto the timeline of my Premier Elements project?

    Thank you for your thoughts on the matter.


    By the way, I’ve not before used VirtualDub. It appears that after resizing, I can save the project either as:

    EXPORT>Save Old Format AVI, or
    EXPORT>Save Segmented AVI.

    I don’t know what the difference is between these to ways to Export/Save.

    Any help.

    Thanks again.
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  2. Depending on your final output you will almost certainly have to re-encode whichever method you use.

    Since it's only a two minute clip, try this:

    Resize with VirtualDub and bring it into your project.
    Also bring the original file into your project.
    Put both versions into your timeline stacked on separate tracks.
    Switch back and forth between the two to see which you prefer.
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  3. smrpix,

    Thank you for your suggestion. That is a clever approach.
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  4. There are dozens different types of scaling algorithms. Generally a NLE uses a soft bicubic to prevent aliasing. It's generally a softer scaling algorithm. If you used something like "lanczos3" in vdub it will be a "sharper" upscale.

    It depends on the scenario you are facing. I suspect 480x360 public domain video will be soft and a sharper upscale would be beneficial. On the other hand, if it's "noisy", you might upscale sharpened artifacts

    Or, if the goal was to "match" the existing VHS segments, there might be other approaches .


    By the way, I’ve not before used VirtualDub. It appears that after resizing, I can save the project either as:

    EXPORT>Save Old Format AVI, or
    EXPORT>Save Segmented AVI.
    To save a video:

    In vdub classic it's "file > save as avi"

    In vdub2 it's "file > save video" and that gives you more options other than AVI

    Generally you want to select a compression first (video > compression) , otherwise it will export uncompressed video
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  5. poisondeathray:

    Thank you.

    My purpose is to capture VHS by way of VirtualDub, perhaps apply a filter or two (maybe denoiser or deshaker), then to do the major file editing in Adobe Premier Elements.

    Based on what you wrote, I assume that in VirtualDub2 I should "SAVE" as AVI since I would then begin my editing in Premier Elements with an uncompressed file. Is that not correct?

    If "Save as AVI" or "Save Video" is the correct execution for the purposes described above, what then is "EXPORT"?

    Thank you.
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  6. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    Based on what you wrote, I assume that in VirtualDub2 I should "SAVE" as AVI since I would then begin my editing in Premier Elements with an uncompressed file. Is that not correct?
    Yes, but uncompressed files are very large


    If "Save as AVI" or "Save Video" is the correct execution for the purposes described above, what then is "EXPORT"?
    In vdub classic, export is for other formats, image sequences , external encoder

    Save as old format AVI uses an older AVI spec AVI 1.0 . It's for some older legacy software compatibility. Don't use it
    Save as segmented AVI breaks the AVI into separate AVI segments. Generally you wouldn't want to use it
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  7. poisondeathray:

    Got it. (Finally!) Thank you.

    By the way, my sole reason for jumping into VirtualDub is because this website strongly urges that one not begin a video capture/editing project with MP-4s (how I was initially learning to capture VHS and to use in Premier Elements), but instead begin with uncompressed/lossless files (which I had not earlier known about).

    In light of all this, are you in favor of my SAVING my VirtualDub-captured VHS projects as UNCOMPRESSED AVI?

    Thanks again.
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  8. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post

    In light of all this, are you in favor of my SAVING my VirtualDub-captured VHS projects as UNCOMPRESSED AVI?
    Filesizes are large, but if you hardware is sufficient, go ahead. It makes editing more difficult. I probably would not

    You can use lossless compression to reduce the filesize, but do you need truly lossless ? Most professional workflows use something "near lossless" like cineform, prores, dnxhr for intermediates, even Hollywood movies, TV shows, Netflix productions

    You won't notice the difference in the end result



    If it's something that's priceless , or archival, you might consider using a true lossless workflow. But if that's the case, you'd just make multiple backups all the original clips and references




    Fine details, feel free to ignore this -

    There are different types of "Uncompressed AVI " . Different pixel formats, subsampling. By default, vdub will use YV12 for 8bit 4:2:0 uncompressed, and YUY2 for 8bit 4:2:2 uncompressed

    Adobe (and most Windows NLE's) require 8bit 4:2:2 "UYVY" to get true lossless uncompressed YUV treatment, otherwise they get converted to RGB . There are no lossy compression losses, but there are rounding lossless and colorspace conversion losses. Most NLE's do not support 4:2:0 uncompressed, and if they do, they require "IYUV" fourcc

    In Adobe, most lossless YUV codecs are not truly "lossless", in that they also get converted to RGB

    If you need a truly mathematically lossless workflow for input/output, it's a bit technical. You'd have to upsample 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 using nearest neighbor algorithm, then export in 4:2:2 UYVY configuration, then downsample back to 4:2:0 using nearest neighbor
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 13th Aug 2020 at 13:05.
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  9. Try nnedi3_rpow2 in AviSynth.
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  10. poisondeathray ----

    Thank you . . . that was quite a lot.

    In my initial reading, learning and practice, the key points for capture of VHS video were to set the capture software (I was using PotPlayer to capture) to MP-4 format, H.264 codec, video bit rate at 8000 kbs and a fixed 30 frames per second. I did this and I was able to capture without problem and then load the resulting file into Adobe Premier Elements for editing. But due to the original source ---- VHS tape ---- the result was hardly pristine, notwithstanding my use of a very good VHS player (JCV w TBC).

    Ok, so I found this VideoHelp website . . . and in terms of capture, the common knowledge seemed to be that I was way off. The key, I learned, was to avoid compression and lossy formats. The most commonly recommended scheme was to use VirtualDub with the Huffyuv codec, though it produces only large AVI files.

    Until today, I did (do) not know whether capturing with the combination of the Huffyuv codec and the AVI format results in files that are uncompressed or slightly compressed. I went back into VirtualDub and just noticed that in screen “Video > Compression”, the first option in the list of codecs is “Uncompressed RGB/YVbCr” (never noticed that before).

    Do I interpret this to mean that if I REALLY wanted uncompressed video, this is what I would select when setting-up my capture workflow? It would seem such, but I don’t know for sure. But if that it is correct, then I must assume that the Huffyuv codec does NOT result in uncompressed video, but some a form of highly efficient lossless file.

    Do I have that about right?

    (These VHS videos are, to us, very important family videos. So long as it is not incomprehensibly difficult, I would like to begin my Adobe Premier Elements editing with the best source material reasonably possible, thus my willingness to redo my MP-4/H.264 captures to AVI/Huffyuv.)


    A final question: In VirtualDub2, I observe the following three relevant options ----

    File > Save Project
    File > Save Project As
    File > Save Video

    My I assume that the two “Save Project” options are for temporary/intermediate saves, where one is later going to return to work on the project, and thus there is no re-encoding . . .

    Whereas, the “File > Save Video” re-encodes the project then saves it in AVI format?

    Thank you.
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  11. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    Until today, I did (do) not know whether capturing with the combination of the Huffyuv codec and the AVI format results in files that are uncompressed or slightly compressed. I went back into VirtualDub and just noticed that in screen “Video > Compression”, the first option in the list of codecs is “Uncompressed RGB/YVbCr” (never noticed that before).

    Do I interpret this to mean that if I REALLY wanted uncompressed video, this is what I would select when setting-up my capture workflow? It would seem such, but I don’t know for sure. But if that it is correct, then I must assume that the Huffyuv codec does NOT result in uncompressed video, but some a form of highly efficient lossless file.

    Do I have that about right?
    Yes, video > compression > uncompressed RGB/YCbCr means uncompressed video. Huffyuv is a lossless codec, it applies lossless compression. Lossless compression means when you decode or decompress it, you get back the original uncompressed file. It's similar to zip or rar file archive compression .


    (These VHS videos are, to us, very important family videos. So long as it is not incomprehensibly difficult, I would like to begin my Adobe Premier Elements editing with the best source material reasonably possible, thus my willingness to redo my MP-4/H.264 captures to AVI/Huffyuv.)
    That's a good reason - more importantly for archival reasons


    A final question: In VirtualDub2, I observe the following three relevant options ----

    File > Save Project
    File > Save Project As
    File > Save Video

    My I assume that the two “Save Project” options are for temporary/intermediate saves, where one is later going to return to work on the project, and thus there is no re-encoding . . .

    Whereas, the “File > Save Video” re-encodes the project then saves it in AVI format?
    Yes - Save Project just saves the settings/filters that you've applied. There is no re-encoding, no video is being encoded.

    Save Project As - just saves an additional iteration of a project. It's like manually doing an incremental backup copy of the project file with a different name. Nothing is being encoded either

    Save Video encodes the video (and not necessarily as AVI if you 're using vdub2)



    Re-encoding an uncompressed or lossless video with uncompressed, or lossless codec results in no degradation, provided the involved software handles everything properly, not additional colorspace or sampling conversions

    eg. Adobe does not handle huffyuv as YUV, it gets converted to RGB . This is potentially problematic for several reasons. If your capture has usable highlight data >Y=235 - that will get clipped, that's the biggest one you might notice. If your captures were all within Y 16-235, you should be safe. The other issues like rounding errors are not really noticable , but you can measure the differences, it's more of an academic thing and on VHS material you won't notice the difference
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  12. Thank you.

    If Huffyuv does not "play nice" with Adobe Premier, another lossless codec I've seen mentioned many times on this site is "Lagarith". Would you recommend that instead, or, for purposes of carrying over to Adobe Premier, are the two codecs about the same?

    Thanks.
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  13. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post

    If Huffyuv does not "play nice" with Adobe Premier, another lossless codec I've seen mentioned many times on this site is "Lagarith". Would you recommend that instead, or, for purposes of carrying over to Adobe Premier, are the two codecs about the same?
    They are about the same, but lagarith offers higher compression (smaller filesizes).

    But most lossless YUV codecs , including lagarith, huffyuv, ut video, magicyuv get converted to RGB in Adobe, so you will encounter the same problems. Some older versions of Premiere Pro CC accepted lossless x264 as YUV, but I doubt elements does, and newer versions have changed behaviour as well

    If your captures are adjusted to Y 16-235, using huffyuv won't be a big problem . For the minor rounding error issues, you won't notice the difference in the final export if you view it on DVD, or web video, those sorts of things. It's negligible. But the levels issue can potentially be important, if you have usable data Y<16, Y>235. Those are salvagable in YUV. You're going to keep the original huffyuv and archive it anyways (or you should be), so what you bring into Premiere is less important

    "Uncompressed" has the same problems too; unless it's one of the "special" versions. That's what the little speech above was about . "UYVY" in 8bit 4:2:2 configuration gets treatment as YUV in Adobe . If you just save "uncompressed" from vdub2 as 4:2:2 , it will be "YUY2" and get RGB treatment
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  14. Thanks again.

    Practicably speaking, my choices for capture of VHS seem to be:

    1) MP-4/H.264 (my original/learning approach), or
    2) AVI/Huffyuv.

    No doubt there are trade-offs with either (or any), but all considered, would you suggest that I implement the AVI/Huffyuv? It seems to be the suggested method by members of this website, but then again they may be using an editor other than Adobe.

    Thanks.
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  15. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post

    Practicably speaking, my choices for capture of VHS seem to be:

    1) MP-4/H.264 (my original/learning approach), or
    2) AVI/Huffyuv.

    No doubt there are trade-offs with either (or any), but all considered, would you suggest that I implement the AVI/Huffyuv? It seems to be the suggested method by members of this website, but then again they may be using an editor other than Adobe.


    MP4/h264 can be lossless too . h264 can be placed in AVI as well. MP4 is just a container. AVI is just a container.

    I recommend lossless for important things like family videos , so you can archive them . Make multiple backups. This is a separate issue than what is being done later.

    Most commercial NLE's have this issue with "lossless" YUV codecs. (They are not truly lossless because of the colorspace conversions, and that has potential ramifications, some minor but the levels clipping can potentially be bad, because that can be "good" data you're throwing away, like shadow detail, or bright cloud detail)


    The biggest quality loss is going to be from MPEG2 DVD encoding.

    Most VHS is "noisy". The biggest subjective quality improvement you can do is process it with filters, clean it up, sharpen it, those sorts of things. At least it will be more enjoyable to watch. You still have the lossless original backup copies stored somewhere
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  16. Well, as an experiment, in VirtualDub2 I just tried to save a short test project as AVI, Quicktime MOV and MP-4.

    AVI and MOV ---- No Problem.

    Saving as MP-4, however, I got the following Error Warning:

    VirtualDub Error”
    “pcm_f32le: codec not currently supported in container MP-4”

    (I thought “PCM” was the designation for uncompressed audio.)

    In any event, I guess I’ll be saving my projects as AVI/Huffyuv.

    Thanks so much.
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  17. PCM WAV is not supported in MP4 container by open source muxers, such as the one used by vdub2
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  18. I guess that's why in my initial capture software (part of PotPlayer), when capturing to MP-4/H.264, the preferred Audio codec was AAC. I chose 192 kbs as the audio capture rate and it seemed fine (we're talk'in VHS here!).

    But in the project I recently made to learn and test and VirtualDub, I probably selected, to it defaulted to, PCM WAV.

    Now I know not to do that!

    Thanks.
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  19. poisondeathray ----

    Although I am new to digital video and know very little, I do have many years of hobbyist experience with Photoshop (the full version). As such, I fully understand your concern and caution with respect to the compressing of shadows and blowout of highlights where a VHS video capture includes data outside the Y 16-235 range. Indeed, from my experience with still images and Photoshop, I’d say that there can be lots of important data below 16 and above 235.

    Your specific comments focus on the matter that if one captures using the Huffyuv or Lagarith codecs then use Adobe Premier Elements (or most other NLE editors) for editing, the conversion of the color data from Huffyuv or Lagarith into the Adobe editor will result in the “Y 16-235 problem”. (And here it was just recently that I learned that I should be capturing with a lossless codec such as Huffyuv or Lagarith, rather than the MP-4/H.264 method that I initially learned!)

    So . . . now that I am aware of the potential “Y 16-235 problem”, it naturally leads me to ask:
    Knowing that my projects are all about capturing VHS video in VirtualDub, fixing them a bit in VirtualDub, then full editing in Adobe Premier Elements, can you recommend a lossless compression codec that will not result in the “Y 16-235 problem”, but still be usable/doable by an amateur hobbyist?

    Thank you.
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  20. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    poisondeathray ----

    Although I am new to digital video and know very little, I do have many years of hobbyist experience with Photoshop (the full version). As such, I fully understand your concern and caution with respect to the compressing of shadows and blowout of highlights where a VHS video capture includes data outside the Y 16-235 range. Indeed, from my experience with still images and Photoshop, I’d say that there can be lots of important data below 16 and above 235.

    Your specific comments focus on the matter that if one captures using the Huffyuv or Lagarith codecs then use Adobe Premier Elements (or most other NLE editors) for editing, the conversion of the color data from Huffyuv or Lagarith into the Adobe editor will result in the “Y 16-235 problem”. (And here it was just recently that I learned that I should be capturing with a lossless codec such as Huffyuv or Lagarith, rather than the MP-4/H.264 method that I initially learned!)

    So . . . now that I am aware of the potential “Y 16-235 problem”, it naturally leads me to ask:
    Knowing that my projects are all about capturing VHS video in VirtualDub, fixing them a bit in VirtualDub, then full editing in Adobe Premier Elements, can you recommend a lossless compression codec that will not result in the “Y 16-235 problem”, but still be usable/doable by an amateur hobbyist?

    Thank you.

    Yes, you can just adjust your levels during capture ~ Y16-235, either in hardware or software during capture , or after (but before Adobe) and you should be ok

    x264 (AVC encoder) using QP0 is still lossless in Adobe. It's really the only "lossless" YUV codec that works in Adobe, as YUV . But that might not apply to Elements. For example it's lossless in Resolve too, but only the "studio" version. The "free" version can't import it.

    It's more difficult to check in Elements, because you don't have a waveform monitor. As soon you import a known video with overbrights/darks (ie. values Y<16 , or >235) , you will see them clipped on a waveform if it's not being handled as YUV . It will be impossible to bring values >235 down, or values <16 up into range. For Elements, you'd have to adjust the levels and check (see if you can recover the superbrights), or export and check



    You got to ask yourself if you really "need" lossless, when the final format is something like DVD. It won't make a difference on the DVD if you use a high quality intermediate for editing (Of course use lossless for archival purposes, store it somewhere, multiple copies)
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  21. poisondeathray ----

    You may have provided me the solution.

    Even in my early stages of learning VirtualDub, I have observed and briefly tested the "HISTOGRAM" filter and the "CURVES EDITOR". Being an old Photoshoper, I understand "LEVELS" functions and the resulting HISTOGRAM quite well.

    Based on your comments and my recent understanding that VirtualDub filters are intended to be applied after the capture (not during capture), I suppose I could run through the project video and, using the VirtualDub "Curves Editor" "Histogram filter", back off the very darkest shadows and lightest highlights.

    Again, based on your comments, I'm thinking that that workflow would reasonably address your cautions.

    Thank you.
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  22. Beware that many of the filters in VirtualDub(2) work in RGB after a rec.601 conversion. So you may have the same crushing problems there.
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  23. jagabo, can you tell me what a "rec.601 conversion" is?

    Do you think there is a better approach to avoid the Y16-235 crushing problem?

    Although 16-235 would not be acceptable for a still image in Photoshop (assuming there is data outside that range), perhaps I'm making too much of the matter in terms of 1980s VHS video. Any thoughts?

    Thank you.
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  24. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    jagabo, can you tell me what a "rec.601 conversion" is?
    It's one of the standards for (among other things) converting YUV to/from RGB.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._601

    It performs the contrast stretch that poisondeathray is warning you about.


    Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    Do you think there is a better approach to avoid the Y16-235 crushing problem?
    Just be sure to adjust levels with one of the filters that works in YUV, not RGB. On the Filters dialog you can enable the Show Image Formats option to see what color format the filter is working in. One filter that works in YUV is Brightness/Contrast. The Histogram filter shows levels after a conversion to RGB -- so it crushes Y<16 and Y>235.

    Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    Although 16-235 would not be acceptable for a still image in Photoshop (assuming there is data outside that range), perhaps I'm making too much of the matter in terms of 1980s VHS video. Any thoughts?
    If you don't want to lose the darkest darks and brightest brights you care about this.
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  25. Here's an extreme example. See what you can get out of the attached Lagarith AVI.

    Image
    [Attachment 54548 - Click to enlarge]
    Image Attached Files
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  26. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Here's an extreme example. See what you can get out of the attached Lagarith AVI.

    Image
    [Attachment 54548 - Click to enlarge]
    I opened the file in VirtualDub2. I did nothing to the file. I ran it for both input and output. Screen totally black, no MGM logo.

    Surely the gray logo was not outside the Y16-235. Commonly, grays are in the 120 to 170 range.

    I am not sure what conclusion to draw.

    Thank you.
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  27. Every pixel in that AVI file has a luma value of less than 16. It's possible to recover those pixels with the right filters. That's what I showed in the screen cap. Obviously, you wouldn't capture a VHS tape like this. But if your VHS cap contains Y<16 values they can be made visible as very dark shades of grey, not just a flat black.
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  28. Oh, I see.

    I further see that I will have to be quite mindful of all these issues when I begin capturing.

    Thanks.
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