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  1. Anyone else think it's weird they are pushing to release this so early? I mean, H.264 came out a decade after MPEG2, H.265 was out in 2013, a decade after H.264. Now H.266 suddenly appears a month ago only 7 years after the failed mess?

    H.264 was way better than MPEG2, H.265 isn't much better than its predecessor, certainly not for the much higher resources it takes. Adoption has been a failure, everybody flocked to alternatives due to the strict licensing issues and the best alternative (AV1) not only isn't any better from the quick test I did but takes WAY LONGER to encode than H.265.

    H.266 threatens to be far worse in terms of complexity. CPU frequency has not increased for 16 years now, so we can forget about Moore's law saving the day.

    Why in holy hell are they pushing for this standard? We aren't ready for it.
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  2. H266 is still not fully finalized yet as standard so relax. Besides, You do realize that creating optimized encoder will take another 5 years?
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  3. Member azmoth's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Aludin View Post
    Anyone else think it's weird they are pushing to release this so early? I mean, H.264 came out a decade after MPEG2, H.265 was out in 2013, a decade after H.264. Now H.266 suddenly appears a month ago only 7 years after the failed mess?

    H.264 was way better than MPEG2, H.265 isn't much better than its predecessor, certainly not for the much higher resources it takes. Adoption has been a failure, everybody flocked to alternatives due to the strict licensing issues and the best alternative (AV1) not only isn't any better from the quick test I did but takes WAY LONGER to encode than H.265.

    H.266 threatens to be far worse in terms of complexity. CPU frequency has not increased for 16 years now, so we can forget about Moore's law saving the day.

    Why in holy hell are they pushing for this standard? We aren't ready for it.
    I think OP has made a very good point. Get H265 finalised for(hardware compatibility!) before jumping the gun! But h266 is years away so no need to worry as yet.
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  4. The standard is finalized, encoders are to follow. H.265 was finalized in April 2013 and the x265 implementation reached version 1.0 a year later, quality not increasing since then despite the new features. This means in summer 2021 we'll have a stable H.266 implementation if the same pattern follows.

    It is also doomed to repeat the same licensing problems and will go nowhere but the alternatives aren't going anywhere either.

    Why doesn't MPEG get their shit together before prematurely pushing another standard?
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  5. Member azmoth's Avatar
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    I was being a bit facetious regarding h265 being finalised hence brackets hardware. Is it going out on a limb to say hardware has not kept up with it nor ever will? I'm sticking with h264. I think your post highlights a lot of frustrations people still feel with hevc. You'll probably get some 'comeback' from advocates of it.
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  6. Originally Posted by Aludin View Post
    The standard is finalized, encoders are to follow. H.265 was finalized in April 2013 and the x265 implementation reached version 1.0 a year later, quality not increasing since then despite the new features. This means in summer 2021 we'll have a stable H.266 implementation if the same pattern follows.

    It is also doomed to repeat the same licensing problems and will go nowhere but the alternatives aren't going anywhere either.

    Why doesn't MPEG get their shit together before prematurely pushing another standard?
    Compare 1.0 vs current version. Quality was worse than x264. Current 3.x version is noticeable more efficient even in 1080p. Like I said. In 2025 we will have the same level of optimilaztion like in x264/x265.
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  7. Seeing that vpu encoder chips support for newer formats get better and better I'm wondering what will happen on that front with H.266,...
    But I agree, it'll probably not before 2025 that we will have mature encoders for H.266.
    users currently on my ignore list: deadrats, Stears555
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  8. Originally Posted by Atak_Snajpera View Post
    Originally Posted by Aludin View Post
    The standard is finalized, encoders are to follow. H.265 was finalized in April 2013 and the x265 implementation reached version 1.0 a year later, quality not increasing since then despite the new features. This means in summer 2021 we'll have a stable H.266 implementation if the same pattern follows.

    It is also doomed to repeat the same licensing problems and will go nowhere but the alternatives aren't going anywhere either.

    Why doesn't MPEG get their shit together before prematurely pushing another standard?
    Compare 1.0 vs current version. Quality was worse than x264. Current 3.x version is noticeable more efficient even in 1080p. Like I said. In 2025 we will have the same level of optimilaztion like in x264/x265.
    I disagree, I have been doing tests and have not seen quality improve with x265 at all since version 1.0. Now, it was with 480p videos but I don't see why that would utterly negate an increase in quality.

    Other than with anime, no H265 implementation I've seen has surpassed x264 more than marginally. It has been a disappointment.
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  9. Originally Posted by Aludin View Post
    Originally Posted by Atak_Snajpera View Post
    Originally Posted by Aludin View Post
    The standard is finalized, encoders are to follow. H.265 was finalized in April 2013 and the x265 implementation reached version 1.0 a year later, quality not increasing since then despite the new features. This means in summer 2021 we'll have a stable H.266 implementation if the same pattern follows.

    It is also doomed to repeat the same licensing problems and will go nowhere but the alternatives aren't going anywhere either.

    Why doesn't MPEG get their shit together before prematurely pushing another standard?
    Compare 1.0 vs current version. Quality was worse than x264. Current 3.x version is noticeable more efficient even in 1080p. Like I said. In 2025 we will have the same level of optimilaztion like in x264/x265.
    I disagree, I have been doing tests and have not seen quality improve with x265 at all since version 1.0. Now, it was with 480p videos but I don't see why that would utterly negate an increase in quality.

    Other than with anime, no H265 implementation I've seen has surpassed x264 more than marginally. It has been a disappointment.
    You are trolling now. I'm done with you. Go back to MPEG-4 ASP era then.
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  10. Originally Posted by Aludin View Post
    I disagree, I have been doing tests and have not seen quality improve with x265 at all since version 1.0. Now, it was with 480p videos but I don't see why that would utterly negate an increase in quality.

    Other than with anime, no H265 implementation I've seen has surpassed x264 more than marginally. It has been a disappointment.
    Your statement is laughable, x264 is not in the same league as x265 and I wouldn't expect it to be. The only thing that "hurts" x265 is that it's pretty slow relative to x264, but if the x265 teams would actually keep the promise they made years ago to incorporate GPU acceleration the same way the Main Concept people have done with their HEVC encoder, then, for the time being, x265 would be untouchable.
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  11. Originally Posted by azmoth View Post
    I was being a bit facetious regarding h265 being finalised hence brackets hardware. Is it going out on a limb to say hardware has not kept up with it nor ever will? I'm sticking with h264. I think your post highlights a lot of frustrations people still feel with hevc. You'll probably get some 'comeback' from advocates of it.
    Most Roku players support both h265 and h265 10-bit, so I would say that hardware has kept up with it.
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  12. Member azmoth's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MindController View Post
    Originally Posted by azmoth View Post
    I was being a bit facetious regarding h265 being finalised hence brackets hardware. Is it going out on a limb to say hardware has not kept up with it nor ever will? I'm sticking with h264. I think your post highlights a lot of frustrations people still feel with hevc. You'll probably get some 'comeback' from advocates of it.
    Most Roku players support both h265 and h265 10-bit, so I would say that hardware has kept up with it.
    Thanks I wasn't sure on that. So the whole h265 slow speed issue is more to do with the codec itself rather than hardware issues?
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  13. Originally Posted by sophisticles View Post
    Originally Posted by Aludin View Post
    I disagree, I have been doing tests and have not seen quality improve with x265 at all since version 1.0. Now, it was with 480p videos but I don't see why that would utterly negate an increase in quality.

    Other than with anime, no H265 implementation I've seen has surpassed x264 more than marginally. It has been a disappointment.
    Your statement is laughable, x264 is not in the same league as x265 and I wouldn't expect it to be. The only thing that "hurts" x265 is that it's pretty slow relative to x264, but if the x265 teams would actually keep the promise they made years ago to incorporate GPU acceleration the same way the Main Concept people have done with their HEVC encoder, then, for the time being, x265 would be untouchable.
    Sorry but I posted tests and the disappointing results remain unresolved, you are free to try to do a better encode than I did but knowing you, you'll bitch and moan about irrelevant points and it would go nowhere so I'm not gonna waste the time, deadrats.
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  14. Originally Posted by Atak_Snajpera View Post
    Originally Posted by Aludin View Post
    Originally Posted by Atak_Snajpera View Post
    Originally Posted by Aludin View Post
    The standard is finalized, encoders are to follow. H.265 was finalized in April 2013 and the x265 implementation reached version 1.0 a year later, quality not increasing since then despite the new features. This means in summer 2021 we'll have a stable H.266 implementation if the same pattern follows.

    It is also doomed to repeat the same licensing problems and will go nowhere but the alternatives aren't going anywhere either.

    Why doesn't MPEG get their shit together before prematurely pushing another standard?
    Compare 1.0 vs current version. Quality was worse than x264. Current 3.x version is noticeable more efficient even in 1080p. Like I said. In 2025 we will have the same level of optimilaztion like in x264/x265.
    I disagree, I have been doing tests and have not seen quality improve with x265 at all since version 1.0. Now, it was with 480p videos but I don't see why that would utterly negate an increase in quality.

    Other than with anime, no H265 implementation I've seen has surpassed x264 more than marginally. It has been a disappointment.
    You are trolling now. I'm done with you. Go back to MPEG-4 ASP era then.
    I am dead serious and have backed this up with tests, look them up if you're curious.

    No idea what MPEG-4 ASP has to do with this.
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  15. Originally Posted by Aludin View Post
    Sorry but I posted tests and the disappointing results remain unresolved, you are free to try to do a better encode than I did but knowing you, you'll bitch and moan about irrelevant points and it would go nowhere so I'm not gonna waste the time, deadrats.
    This statement is so confusing, it's hard to know where to begin. I don't know where you got the impression that someone wants or needs you to kill members of the genus Rattus, but I'll do a quick test encode for you.

    https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicpocketcinemacamera/workflow

    Source: 16:24GB Wedding video, 1034Mb/s, 6144*3456 (16:9), 24fps, cropped and resized via Handbrake to 4096x1712 (2.40:1, Mod16)

    I cheated in favor of x264, 2 pass, preset slow, tune film, 5Mb/s; x265 I used 1 pass, preset very fast, tune grain, 5Mb/s, I through in a quick nvenc hevc encode, just for shits and giggles.

    Note, I would never, ever use only 5Mb/s for 4k, not with AVC, not with HEVC, maybe with AV1, because I have seen some crazy good encodes with SVT-AV1 with the slower presets (6 and lower).

    Also note, that the x265 encode used less bit rate than the x264 one, and the nvenc encode used less still, and nvenc was not a Turing encode and it still managed to be pretty close to x264.

    So...
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  16. Just to really drive home the point, I did 3 more encodes, with the ToS 13GB JPEG2000 source, I exported it as a x264 CRF 0 lossless and used that as source, I did this because I wanted to minimize the decoding bottleneck associated with JPEG2000, due the desire to report encoding speed this time.

    Like the last encode, I cheated in favor of x264, 2 pass, preset slow, tune film, 5Mb/s, x265 was 1 pass,preset very fast, tune grain and I threw in an nvenc hevc encode as well. The source was a 4096x1714, which I cropped by 2 pixels from the top to make it 4096x1712 (MOD16).

    Again, this is way less bit rate than I would ever use for a 4k encode.

    As for encode times, x264 took 26min28sec, x265 took 46 minutes and nvenc took 6min18sec; this is for a 12min14sec source.

    I don't think anyone with even a modicum of intellectual honesty will say that x264 won either of these 2 test encode contests.
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  17. And this is all related to H.266, how?
    And this should be in this thread, why?
    At least I don't even care any more to look at such comparisons here any more unless they are in their dedicated own threads.
    -> time to abandon another thread,...
    users currently on my ignore list: deadrats, Stears555
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  18. A good quality video file if it results from h.266 will be nice for those of use who don't have super fast internet speeds. I do nearly all my encodes with h.264 because it takes up less time and not every device accepts h.265
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