Brighteye 75 issues or my settings

[Sergei316]

I am having issues getting my Ensemble BrightEye75 to work properly.

I have been having issues with the BE75 disconnecting from my USB2.0 port with software vers 3.0.2 so I downgraded to software vers 2.1.5.

I am using a Win 7 x64 capture box with Vdub 1.9.11 and a BM SDI card.

I have attached 2 clips so you can see the issues.

Here are my workflows:
A) 7800 (TBC on, NORM)--> AVT-8710--> PA-100--> BE75 (frame sync off)--> BM Sdi--->VDUB
B) 7800 (TBC on, NORM)--> PA-100--> BE75 (frame sync ON)--> BM Sdi--->VDUB

BE75 Settings:
1. INPUT --> Y/C / Analog ON
2. PROC AMP--> GAIN 100 / Chroma 100 / Pedestal 0 / Hue 0
3. TIMING--> Timing 0 / Frame Sync--> Workflow A-OFF / Workflow B-ON
4. CONFIG--> Signal Mute NO MUTING / Analog Setup ON / V Blanking NARROW / Comb Mode COMB ON / Peak Indicator 2db Headroom / Dig Ref level -20dBFS / Anlg Ref Level +4dBu
5. TRIM--> Composite Trim 0 / Saturation Trim 0

Any help or ideas appreciated.

[dellsam34]

Your VCR should be in Edit mode not normal, Why are you using TBC's with BE75? did you have issues with signal stability? USB port on the BE75 is just for changing settings, it doesn't to be hooked up all the time.

[Sergei316]

Not sure how NORM vs EDIT mode would effect the stability of the signal.

I was/am using the BE75 for SDI.

No issues with signal using the AVT8710, the signal going through the BE75 is definitely not stable. I would assume the frame sync is not working. I have tried three diffrent VCR's and the same thing happens on all three with BE75 with Frame Sync ON (No AVT-8710 in workflow).

I understand now the USB is for settings.

[dellsam34]

Can you post samples with AVT8710 (BE75 TBC OFF) and without it (BE75 TBC ON)? SDI transfer is better done on USB 3.0 in case you are using USB 2.0.
Edit mode on the VCR turns off picture settings such as sharpness and stuff like that. Just like turning off the equalizer/DSP when capturing an analog audio cassette.

[Sergei316]

Both clips have been uploaded.

The first is the Avt8710 with Be75 frame sync OFF.
The second is the BE75 with frame sync ON and NO Avt8710 in the workflow.

[Sergei316]

Are you saying SDI transfer is better with USB 3.0 than with a SDI PCIe card?

[dellsam34]

No, I wasn't aware that you are using PCIe, so you're good to go on that, The sample I'm looking for is VCR-> BE75 -> BM SDI. In the first sample I see that the AVT8710 didn't eliminate the flagging, in the second clip looks like the BE75 took care of it, I don't understand the issue. What is PA100? a DVD recorder?

Edit: I think I mixed up the samples, sorry. I would still like to see the PA-100 (whatever that is) taken out the workflow and try with VCR line TBC on and off..

[Sergei316]

Sign Video PA-100 Proc Amp.

I will work on a clip without the Proc Amp.

[Sergei316]

Here is the clip.

7800--> BE75--> BMsdi

7800 Settings (TBC=ON, Video Calibration=OFF, Picture Control =EDIT, Digital R3=OFF, Video Stabilizer=OFF)

BE75 Settings:
1. INPUT --> Y/C / Analog ON
2. PROC AMP--> GAIN 100 / Chroma 100 / Pedestal 0 / Hue 0
3. TIMING--> Timing 0 / Frame Sync ON
4. CONFIG--> Signal Mute NO MUTING / Analog Setup ON / V Blanking WIDE / Comb Mode COMB OFF / Peak Indicator 6db Headroom / Dig Ref level -20dBFS / Anlg Ref Level +4dBu
5. TRIM--> Composite Trim 0 / Saturation Trim 0

[dellsam34]

So what's the problem with this workflow?

[Sergei316]

Nothing. Working perfect now for about 4 hours.

Just surprised that the PA-100 is the issue. It works with the AVT-8710 fine but with the BE75 the issue is so apparent.

Not sure how to trouble shoot the PA-100.

[dellsam34]

The BE75 has its own proc amp and own TBC you don't need any extra hardware with it, It can handle lousy signal from VHS and Betamax because its TBC was designed for that purpose and it's 12bit not 10bit like most stand alone TBC's, Here is how the engineer designer described the TBC functionality:

The BrightEye 75 is a Time Base Corrector, combined with a frame synchronizer. And it includes analog audio inputs which are digitized at 48Khz to a resolution of 24 bits per channel (professional standard). That audio is embedded in the final SDI output.
The time base correction is performed through a proprietary system that digitally tracks the incoming signal. It is much more sophisticated than a conventional line rate process, as it also provides velocity compensation, which makes it ideal to process the output of a VHS helical scan player. In addition to the TBC functions, the signal digitizer features oversampling and greater bit depth than traditional TBCs.
The Frame Synchronizer that follows the TBC function is a traditional implementation that uses frame drop and double to accommodate the difference between input and output frame rates. It is frame based, not field based.

Regards,

David Wood
++++++++
David Wood
President and Chief Design Engineer
Ensemble Designs

You should also try turning TBC and DNR on in the VCR, most of the time it improves the picture quality and makes the encoding task later on for the compression algorithm a lot easier. You should only turn them off if they worsen the picture or destabilize it.

[oln]

Nothing. Working perfect now for about 4 hours.

Just surprised that the PA-100 is the issue. It works with the AVT-8710 fine but with the BE75 the issue is so apparent.

Not sure how to trouble shoot the PA-100.

Maybe it works by digitizing the signal and struggles with unstable video, or alternatively maybe whatever level adjustments it made confused the sync detection in the BE. Do you get the same issue it if it's put BEFORE the AVT-8710? When you had the AVT in the setup you had the PA-100 behind it so the video would have already been digitized and re-made into a stable signal by the AVT.

[dellsam34]

I think it's time to sell all the extra equipment and keep the BE75 for the task of capturing, It has all the functions needed (proc amp, TBC, Frame sync) with small footprint (5.5"x5.5"x3/4"), If you have the green AVT you could be sitting on a brick of gold, Those go for over $500.

By the way here is your sample cropped, de-interlaced and encoded. I could use some de-noising but I'm certain you can get rid of that noise at the source if you turn the VCR's DNR ON:

[Sergei316]

Maybe it works by digitizing the signal and struggles with unstable video, or alternatively maybe whatever level adjustments it made confused the sync detection in the BE. Do you get the same issue it if it's put BEFORE the AVT-8710? When you had the AVT in the setup you had the PA-100 behind it so the video would have already been digitized and re-made into a stable signal by the AVT.

That is great point. I will try the PA-100 before the AVT to see if that causes an issue.

[Sergei316]

I think it's time to sell all the extra equipment and keep the BE75 for the task of capturing, It has all the functions needed (proc amp, TBC, Frame sync) with small footprint (5.5"x5.5"x3/4"), If you have the green AVT you could be sitting on a brick of gold, Those go for over $500.

By the way here is your sample cropped, de-interlaced and encoded. I could use some de-noising but I'm certain you can get rid of that noise at the source if you turn the VCR's DNR ON:

I wont be selling off any extra equipment anytime soon.

Video looks good. QTGMC or HYBRID for deinterlace?

7800 DNR is which setting? Digital R3?

[dellsam34]

I used QTGMC, Probably Digital 3R or R3, I have the HR-S7600AM PAL/NTSC the names on the menu are completely different from a US version.

[oln]

DNR is part of the TBC function that's turned on with the button on the front of the VCR. Digital 3R is a different thing, it sharpens the image a bit, and is turned on in the menus.

[dellsam34]

Yes the manual suggested to turn 3R off if the VCR is used for editing which capturing is a form of, And yes TBC/DNR or NR is on the front, Another features worth checking is "Active video calibration" and "Video Stabilizer" but the latter cannot be used with TBC/NR at the same time.

[Sergei316]

Here is a clip with oln's suggestion

7800-->PA100--> AVT871--> BE75--> BMsdi

7800 Settings (TBC/DNR=ON, Video Calibration=OFF, Picture Control =EDIT, Digital R3=OFF, Video Stabilizer=OFF)

BE75 Settings:
1. INPUT --> Y/C / Analog ON
2. PROC AMP--> GAIN 100 / Chroma 100 / Pedestal 0 / Hue 0
3. TIMING--> Timing 0 / Frame Sync[B]OFF/B]
4. CONFIG--> Signal Mute NO MUTING / Analog Setup ON / V Blanking WIDE / Comb Mode COMB OFF / Peak Indicator 6db Headroom / Dig Ref level -20dBFS / Anlg Ref Level +4dBu
5. TRIM--> Composite Trim 0 / Saturation Trim 0[/QUOTE]

So I can assume that the PA-100 needs to be repaired or I have to use it after the TBC.

[dellsam34]

I have no idea what is the purpose of that workflow, Not only the picture lost a lot of details compared to the sample in post 9 due to multiple conversions, chances of getting audio sync problems are very high, Also the chroma is a mess. That is not the ideal way of preserving tapes.

[oln]

Presumably it was just to test whether the PA-100 was causing the issues, which it looks like it was. Maybe that's just how it works, but idk, the BE75 has level adjustments so it shouldn't be needed anyhow.

[Sergei316]

I have no idea what is the purpose of that workflow, Not only the picture lost a lot of details compared to the sample in post 9 due to multiple conversions, chances of getting audio sync problems are very high, Also the chroma is a mess. That is not the ideal way of preserving tapes.

It was just to test the PA-100 in a workflow.

Not sure I understand what you mean by multiple conversions. PA-100 to AVT-8710? AVT-8710 to SDI?

[Sergei316]

Presumably it was just to test whether the PA-100 was causing the issues, which it looks like it was. Maybe that's just how it works, but idk, the BE75 has level adjustments so it shouldn't be needed anyhow.

That is correct. Just testing the PA-100.

[dellsam34]

Not sure I understand what you mean by multiple conversions. PA-100 to AVT-8710? AVT-8710 to SDI?

The AVT-8710 takes the analog video converts it to digital apply TBC then converts it back to analog, The PA-100 if digital processing used it does the same thing so that's 4 conversions, If the PA-100 uses analog processing that's even worse, the losses will be greater. There is a reason why the BE75 digitizes the signal first at 12 bit apply TBC and other proc amp adjustments if requested in the 12bit domain and never converts the signal back to analog, From there the SDI adapter/card steps it down to 10/8 bit for file creation.

[dellsam34]

Here is a sample from a pre-recorded tape, When VCR setting are properly set the BE75 can achieve results pretty close to the RF signal (though the sample is encoded to H.264):

[Sergei316]

Not sure I understand what you mean by multiple conversions. PA-100 to AVT-8710? AVT-8710 to SDI?

The AVT-8710 takes the analog video converts it to digital apply TBC then converts it back to analog, The PA-100 if digital processing used it does the same thing so that's 4 conversions, If the PA-100 uses analog processing that's even worse, the losses will be greater. There is a reason why the BE75 digitizes the signal first at 12 bit apply TBC and other proc amp adjustments if requested in the 12bit domain and never converts the signal back to analog, From there the SDI adapter/card steps it down to 10/8 bit for file creation.

That makes sense. I still am not sure why the TBC's choke on the signal if the PA-100 is before either in the workflow.

I have had excellent results with AVT-8710--> PA-100 workflow in the past and have had no issues. I never had the PA-100 before a TBC though.

[FLP437]

I beginning to think that the ensemble designs brighteye devices do have compatibility hardware issues with other devices. The brighteye control program frequently disconnection is a well-known problem that apparently Ensemble Designs have not been able to solve in the last 13 years.

I have a different situation with a similar equipment ( BE 3 ) that do seems to have some remote similarities with those described .

Presently I do have issues with a workflow I was testing based on Ensemble Designs Brighteye 3 ( I wanted to test one based on the brighteye 75 , but so far I haven't been able to get one at an acceptable price, so I bought the brighteye 3 to begin with )

WF1- SVHS REC-> svideo->BE 3 -> SDI –>Magewell Pro SDI- pcie>VD2-lossless file

It worked fine without TBC/FS on, but when TBC/FS is engaged in BE 3 the Magewell card seems to lose the handshake with the SDI stream and reports unsupported signal constantly cycling this info

WF2 - SVHS REC-> svideo->BE 3-> SDI-> BE 11-> component YUV/RGB ->Magewell Pro capture HDMI-> VD2-lossless file

Works fine with BE 3 TBC on and off ( however involves unnecessary conversions that do degrade final quality)

*BE 11- Ensemble Designs brighteye 11 SDI to analog converter

I contacted Magewell and have been told that it was a hardware compatibility issue with the Pro SDI card . Because this issue was related with FPGA, it cannot be troubleshooted remotely. Only could be solved in theirs lab with a BE 3 to reproduce the issue.

WF3- SVHS REC-> svideo->BE 3-SDI-> Datavideo DAC 70-> SDI –>Magewell Pro SDI- pcie>VD2-lossless file

WF4- SVHS REC-> svideo->BE 3-SDI-> Datavideo DAC 70-> HDMI –>Magewell Pro HDMI pcie->VD2-lossless file

*Datavideo DAC 70 up/down versatile cross converter, VGA/SDI/HDMI input , SDI HDMI output + audio embedding ( it allowed me to identify and manipulate the SDI signal or only to embed the audio signal in the pass-through sdi stream.

In WF3 and WF4 everything works fine without TBC/FS engaged but again Datavideo dac 70 seems to lose input signal ( handshake off) and reports no SDI signal, as soon as TBC /FS in BE 3 is on.

WF5 -SVHS REC-> svideo->BE 3-SDI-> BM SDI to HDMI micro converter-> HDMI –>Magewell Pro HDMI pcie ->VD2->lossless file

BM SDI to HDMI micro converter loose signal when TBC/FS is engaged on BE3, without tbc on works fine

WF6- SVHS REC-> svideo->BE 3-SDI-> BM Decklink Mini Recorder 4k pcie->VD2->lossless file

Without BE 3 tbc on works fine, with BE 3 TBC on it does work but crops 32 pixels from the bottom of the image

None of the BE 3 settings has any impact on this situation

Tried also changing support for SDI levels A e B with datavideo DAC 70 but no luck

There are descriptions of this workflow working fine with some BM devices (like the one I include in the attachment), namely ,BM Decklink Studio capture PCi card and BlackMagic Ultrastudio SDI to usb3.

So far it does seems that the Brighteye 3 do have some significant hardware compatibility problems ( and probably the 75 also ) with other devices or is broken. However the fact that it works fine with the BE 11 and partially fine with the BM mini recorder 4k, lead me to think more about the first situation ( hardware compatibility issues , ( SMPTE payload ID problems or problems related to SDI handshake).

Without TBC on the BE 3 requires a very stable source, not all VHS player do provide this stable stream I do have four and the one that provides the most stable output is a Panasonic DMR-ES35V. The component out directly to the BE 3 do provides a very stable stream and good results even without the tbc on, however it was not the aim of this workflow test that was centered in the BE 3 TBC feature.

[Sergei316]

FLP437, as dellsam34 told me in Post #2, that the Ensemble software does not need to be used/open all the time during capture. I thought it did, so I would leave it open during capture and it would often drop out. However, at times, when I need to make adjustments, the software does not recognize the BE75 is connected. It is a PIA.

[dellsam34]

I've never owned a BE3 but I've had more than one BE75 and they all seem to work fine with USB 2.0 but all freeze with USB 3.0, lets not forget that USB is only for firmware update and changing settings.

I've had problems before with the BE75 when tried to use it with the Magewell Silver (SDI/USB3.0), but then 2 other devices didn't work with that Magewell, one Aja S-Video2SDI and one generic HDMI2SDI adapters, So got the black one (the older model), the same results with all three devices, black screen. From my personal testing and this thread, it seems the BE75 works perfectly with BM SDI devices USB3 and PCIe alike regardless who's fault is the BE or the receiving device.

As far as other analog devices in the workflow the only thing I've tried is the black AVT-8710 and that worked fine, not that I need it to be in the workflow but just for testing purposes after reading this thread. I've owned USB capture devices before that required other devices in the chain but since started using the BE75 I pretty much sold every device I had except for one AVT-8710 and an extra BE75 which will be gone when their time come.