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  1. Member
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    Hi

    OK...... a few thing I know / have already

    1) I know VHS is a real crappy format that the world and I have had to endure and suffer for many many years, even as a young boy, recording various TV programs I knew the result were total garbage quality wise (and that was on 1000+ panasonic vhs machines), compared to normal 625 line broadcast! why oh why did crappy JVC win the battle and not Sony Betamax back in the late 70s/80s,

    JVC with there crap VHS offering caused decades of millions and millions of poor quality sub standard recordings.

    2) ok now with that off my chest, I have a stack load of crap VHS recordings thanks to JVC winning the Video war, that i would like to archive, not really sure why because the quality of VHS is so poor, but for some strange reason, I would like to archive these memories, even though I will ALWAYS be disappointed with the results

    I tried years ago with a Black magic intensity pro, USB3 thingy but with varied results, some not too bad.


    I have now invested loads of $$$$ in a AJA Kona LHI setup and have a SONY SVO5800 VHS machine and I am feeding a SVIDEO signal in to the Kona LHI capture card, I also have a JVC 50hz CRT monitor connected to the output of the Kona LHI card for monitoring the input (VHS) tape being captured and monitoring the playback of the recording.

    The problems I am facing is the over all quality of playback on any software player VLC etc.


    when I view the captured recording on my 50hz JVC monitor its as good as the original, but when I view the same recording in windows its very average, I have tried turning on de-interlacing ? still not great, why is the digital playback in software of the analogue capture poor, even though I have captured the analog vhs at the highest raw video settings. I know my CRT has an electron beam scanning at 50hz and I have captured at 25 frames per sec. Is this what is missing in windows and why the CRT plays back so much better that windows, or do I need to do something to the raw copy ?

    is it frame rate ? is it interlacing ? is it impossible to get analogue playing nicely on digital screens/computers/software video plays

    I LOVE the 50hz CRT playback, on the JVC monitor, from the archived capture It's Crisp, Flow Nicely, it looks the same as the original

    Why won't the PC playback look as good ?


    why is this, I understand VHS is crap quality, but I am happy to accept the playback of my CRT 50hz pal monitor, it just the digital playback that's looks rubbish

    is it the interlacing ? that when played back through software video player looks rubbish

    is it that I recording in to high quality on the kona LHI, but NO..... i want to record in lossless, 10bit, I'm trying to archive ?

    I'm sure I can see a slight improvement at 10bit vs 8bit

    To make these archives play better digitally, do they need to be converted to a different format ?? i.e interlace / de interlace ??? Mpeg / MKV / Mpeg2

    I don't really want to compress the result, I would like to keep lossless, but maybe for better results digitally I need to have a second compressed version ??

    There are so many settings everywhere Digital / Analog / YCbCr / DVpro50 / ProRes422 etc etc

    I'm totally confused and would like some help please


    my current settings for capturing VHS on the kona LHI are as follows


    PAL

    file: abc123.mov file
    Format: 720x575i (1.093) 25.00
    Video: 10bit YCbCr ('V210')
    Audio: 24bit LE PCM 48khz


    now I think these are maxed out and the very very best I could expect to archive from VHS


    So why is the digital playback so average VLC player

    does this need converting / encoding to mpg / avi / MKV

    I understand some of these are not codecs, they are containers for the video


    But help...... just need some uncomplicated basic explanation of what I need to do


    I 'm possibly thinking maybe analogue archives can not be played back that well / great on digital systems ?


    I have a great VCR with TBC / I have a great capture card AJA Kona LHI / I am archiving at 10bit raw yet the digital playback is just ok ?

    yet the analogue playback on the CRT is great


    is it the scan lines/ the frame rate

    Any Help will be very much appreciated


    There is just to many settings / standards / codecs /etc



    Regards


    John
    Last edited by Johnnysh; 28th May 2020 at 08:19.
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    Your old monitor is hiding the defects. Modern monitors and HDTVs accurately (within limits of personal settings) show the video as it truly is. In addition, your computer monitor and HDTV are probably much larger than your CRT, allowing you to see the defects even more clearly.

    Post short clip of your actual untouched capture and others may able to help you with filtering and other settings. You're way overthinking and complicating things.
    Last edited by lingyi; 28th May 2020 at 10:22.
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    Hi

    thanks for the reply

    first what is the best PC software to take a small clip from a 2 hour rip? without changing the format. would like to edit the original but not change anything, so NO re-encoding.


    I want to be able to place start and stop markers and then extract the video and NOT re-encode


    I don't fancy paying Adobes GREEDY prices each month, I dont agree with monthly renting of software anyway,


    I will only ever purchase software NOT rent, so what is the very best software to allow video editing? other than Premiere, one day Adobe will hopefully lose the market due to greed.


    also I know you say I am over complicating things, but....I'm not sure I am, there are definitely interlacing to consider and refresh & frame rates

    My JVC monitor size is roughly the same size as the PC video player window so lets rule out defects from physical window size between the real monitor and the PC player

    Now the VIDEO I am watching on the PC that was captured from VHS is now almost ending, the credit are scrolling from bottom to top

    I have paused the software player and I am looking at the text i.e. words I can see lots lines across the words, this is the interlacing, causing horrible defects on the digital playback

    I dont get this on the CRT monitor,

    also the CRT plays smoother, where as the PC player seem more jerky, delayed just not as smooth....

    so what I am seeing is incompatibility between two systems analog vs digital


    Now.... my super dooper AJA has capture analog and digitized it, but do I not need to re-encode to get rid of these interlace lines ???


    RegardsImage
    [Attachment 53559 - Click to enlarge]
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    Assuming you're on a PC, you can use Virtualdub or AVIDemux to cut a short sample.
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    Thank You


    Much Appreciated


    Regards
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  6. Member DB83's Avatar
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    My friend above stated 'Assuming you are on a PC'


    Your earlier post suggested something else since we tend to regard a PC as a Windows machine. Noone here would capture anything as a .mov.


    So let's cut the crap and state what your 'PC' actually is and, more importantly, state the hardware and software you use to 'capture' the VHS.
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    Good catch on the PC. I forget and think of the computer world as PC, Mac and Linux.

    The OP stated "...a AJA Kona LHI setup and have a SONY SVO5800 VHS"
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    DB83... first of all


    Your earlier post suggested something else since we tend to regard a PC as a Windows machine. Noone here would capture anything as a .mov.

    So let's cut the crap and state what your 'PC' actually is and, more importantly, state the hardware and software you use to 'capture' the VHS.
    Whats the CRAP ???..... there is no crap....

    A PC is a windows machine, never stated anything else ??


    Why would no one here as You put it..... NOT capture anything as a .mov, explain yourself,.... They are lossless are they not ?


    whats wrong with .mov its one of the default formats in the AJA KONA capture software, on $1500 capture card, I would imagine there not too much wrong with .mov ???

    ProRes 422 is compressed,

    so why NOT .mov ??






    just googled .mov........ because no one here use .mov well not DB83

    and this is the first thing that came up


    There are various advantages associated with MOV format, which makes it much more popular and usable format for videos. ... In spite of the fact that MOV was intended for QuickTime player and MP4 uses the same lossy compression standards, they are mostly interchangeable in a QuickTime-only environment.18 May 2020


    My hardware is more than, much much than respected for the job in hand.


    Hardware is

    HP Z640 WORKSTATION xeon 3.4ghz E5-2643 v3 @ 3.4ghz

    64 Gig DDR4

    Graphics 12gig Nvidia GTX Titan X Graphics Card

    Primary Drive Samsung 500gig 970 Evo Plus NVM

    Windows 10 64bit


    AJA Control Room Capture Software


    AJA Kona LHI Capture Card (Very respected)

    SONY SVO5800 VHS
    Last edited by Johnnysh; 28th May 2020 at 12:15.
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  9. That's actually a pretty good capture for VHS. You have interlaced video. It needs to be deinterlaced for display. Time base is pretty clean. Minimal oversharpening halos. Levels and saturation might need adjusting. But those are all things you do after capturing.
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  10. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Apologies if you do not understand the expression 'Cut the crap'. It simply means state the core problem (which you probably did) and not post 'flannel' which much of you OP is.


    So to cut the crap do the following.


    1. Upload a mediainfo report (text mode) of one of these captures.
    2. Upload a sample capture from your equipment - even from Corrie (which many on here will never have heard of )


    And for the record you 'rubbished' .mov yet that is also a container format. In the days gone by it would have meant quicktime. Yet the whole point of a capture is not to be the end all of the process.


    Throwing at the capture hardware/software does not neccessarily make it any better than a 50 usb device.
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    Jagabo

    Thank you for your reply

    now we are getting somewhere,


    The SONY SVO5800 which blows away most VCRs has a TBC built in, its a broadcast studio quality VCR, so this is a major factor and a great starting point for good source quality

    The AJA Kona Card is also well up there in quality..

    look at these two images of the same frame from the captured video, one on the JVC monitor taken from my iphone and the other screen captured from the player software




    Image
    [Attachment 53560 - Click to enlarge]


    Image
    [Attachment 53561 - Click to enlarge]
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    3.mov

    ok here is a sample of a capture


    regards
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    Image
    [Attachment 53563 - Click to enlarge]


    these are the various file formats I can capture too ?


    here is the file info you required, this is for the clip I uploaded


    Regards


    General
    Complete name : C:\Users\HP-Z640\Downloads\3.mov
    Format : QuickTime
    Format/Info : Original Apple specifications
    File size : 321 MiB
    Duration : 11 s 680 ms
    Overall bit rate : 230 Mb/s
    Encoded date : UTC 2020-05-28 17:39:43
    Tagged date : UTC 2020-05-28 17:39:43
    Writing library : Apple QuickTime

    Video
    ID : 1
    Format : YUV
    Codec ID : v210
    Codec ID/Hint : AJA Video Systems Xena
    Duration : 11 s 680 ms
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 221 Mb/s
    Width : 720 pixels
    Clean aperture width : 702 pixels
    Height : 576 pixels
    Clean aperture height : 576 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 4:3
    Clean aperture display aspect ratio : 4:3
    Frame rate mode : Constant
    Frame rate : 25.000 FPS
    Standard : PAL
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:2
    Bit depth : 10 bits
    Scan type : Interlaced
    Scan type, store method : Interleaved fields
    Scan order : Top Field First
    Compression mode : Lossless
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 21.333
    Stream size : 308 MiB (96%)
    Language : English
    Encoded date : UTC 2020-05-28 17:39:43
    Tagged date : UTC 2020-05-28 17:39:43
    Color primaries : BT.601 PAL
    Transfer characteristics : BT.709
    Matrix coefficients : BT.601

    Audio #1
    ID : 3
    Format : PCM
    Format settings : Little / Signed
    Codec ID : in24
    Duration : 6 s 83 ms
    Source duration : 11 s 680 ms
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 2 304 kb/s
    Channel(s) : 2 channels
    Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
    Bit depth : 24 bits
    Stream size : 1.67 MiB (1%)
    Source stream size : 3.21 MiB (1%)
    Language : English
    Encoded date : UTC 2020-05-28 17:39:43
    Tagged date : UTC 2020-05-28 17:39:43
    mdhd_Duration : 6083

    Audio #2
    ID : 4
    Format : PCM
    Format settings : Little / Signed
    Codec ID : in24
    Duration : 6 s 83 ms
    Source duration : 11 s 680 ms
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 2 304 kb/s
    Channel(s) : 2 channels
    Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
    Bit depth : 24 bits
    Stream size : 1.67 MiB (1%)
    Source stream size : 3.21 MiB (1%)
    Language : English
    Encoded date : UTC 2020-05-28 17:39:43
    Tagged date : UTC 2020-05-28 17:39:43
    mdhd_Duration : 6083

    Audio #3
    ID : 5
    Format : PCM
    Format settings : Little / Signed
    Codec ID : in24
    Duration : 6 s 83 ms
    Source duration : 11 s 680 ms
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 2 304 kb/s
    Channel(s) : 2 channels
    Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
    Bit depth : 24 bits
    Stream size : 1.67 MiB (1%)
    Source stream size : 3.21 MiB (1%)
    Language : English
    Encoded date : UTC 2020-05-28 17:39:43
    Tagged date : UTC 2020-05-28 17:39:43
    mdhd_Duration : 6083

    Audio #4
    ID : 6
    Format : PCM
    Format settings : Little / Signed
    Codec ID : in24
    Duration : 6 s 83 ms
    Source duration : 11 s 680 ms
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 2 304 kb/s
    Channel(s) : 2 channels
    Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
    Bit depth : 24 bits
    Stream size : 1.67 MiB (1%)
    Source stream size : 3.21 MiB (1%)
    Language : English
    Encoded date : UTC 2020-05-28 17:39:43
    Tagged date : UTC 2020-05-28 17:39:43
    mdhd_Duration : 6083

    Other
    ID : 2
    Type : Time code
    Format : QuickTime TC
    Duration : 11 s 680 ms
    Frame rate : 25.000 FPS
    Time code of first frame : 00:00:00:00
    Time code, striped : Yes
    Title : Untitled
    Language : English
    Encoded date : UTC 2020-05-28 17:39:43
    Tagged date : UTC 2020-05-28 17:39:43
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  14. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Not the right way to send a sample but it can be corrected post-download.


    The capture does indeed report Apple-quicktime (unless mediainfo has been 'fooled') and since it is lossless I guess you can not improve on that.


    But you will be dealing with 'Huge' files which could be making post-capture 'interesting' to say the least.


    Maybe you should state your final delivery format.
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    So

    from a PC software video playback Interlacing is one issue,

    obviously the playback on the JVC CRT is perfect because the interlacing is correct for the CRT

    but not so for the PC/software player

    ??

    so can this be rectified (deinteraced) without losing any quality from the original archive.

    are my dislikes down to this being a RAW copy which does not play great Digitally ?

    regards
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    I guess Apple Quick time is the codec being used in lossless format by AJA and the Control Room Capture Software

    What I'm trying to Achieve is to archive VHS video tapes at the very best quality, (lossless / 10bit) and I also understand this will make large files, / very large

    When I play back the captured video file and output it through the capture card on to the JVC CRT monitor, I can NOT FAULT or tell the difference between the source VHS tape, or the 10bit Archive

    so all good there

    my issue is, it does not play great on the PC / Digital player

    its ok, but just ok....


    I would have expected better, smoother play, smoother more defined image , no interlace lines or artifacts

    as for final format, I don't know ??

    I want the best lossless format, that looks and plays well on digital players

    was hoping the lossless .mov file I have just captured would be the final archive huge file, but interlacing seems one issue causing artifacts

    the problem is, if I compress to make it smaller you lose quality, the quality is crap at the best, so don't want to add more desegregation in the mix by compressing

    Regards
    Last edited by Johnnysh; 28th May 2020 at 13:22.
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  17. You can just force your player to deinterlace on the fly. Here's the video deinterlaced with QTGMC, the black level lowered a bit, and encoded as h.264.
    Image Attached Files
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    jagabo


    thank you for your reply


    so... your encoded version seems better quality when viewing on the computer than my original, albeit my original is vastly larger

    So what is it about the original lossless file that I don't like compared to your encoded compressed version that seems to me to favour better when playing and viewing on a computer

    is it the h.264 codec thats doing something when encoding, to make the raw format play smoother and better in a software player

    or

    is it the interlacing ??



    should I be choosing a different standard when capturing ?? apple proress 422 / DVCPro50, though thought I was choosing the best lossless settings already


    I appreciate turning on de interlacing on the fly, but the players still do not seem to play my large raw files great ?


    So are we saying I need to keep two files for the same VHS tape (1 HQ RAW Huge File) / (2 an encoded one that plays better on digital players) ?



    and the next questions....


    what is the best encoding software and what are the best settings for high quality results

    Its all so involved and such a long winded process archiving hours of poor quality VHS, just trying to get it right before wasting load of time,

    So really do appreciated any feedback

    regards
    Last edited by Johnnysh; 28th May 2020 at 13:43.
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  19. Visually, the difference between my video and your source is the deinterlacing. My video is also intentionally a little darker -- though that may not have been appropriate. It's possible the raised black level was intentional. QTGMC's default settings do sharpen a bit and reduce a little noise.

    If you were to play my video on your TV you would probably get a look similar to watching the tape on TV. TV's are usually set up to stretch contrast and boost saturation. Because that's what people like.
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    Hello

    Thanks for the reply


    so the bulk of what I am not liking is interlacing,

    I may be wrong but QTGMC seems very complicated, with scripts and a large learning curve

    or am I miss understanding,


    what would be the script or commands to achieve what you did in conversion?


    I have gone here

    http://avisynth.nl/index.php/QTGMC

    and wow, not sure where you would start


    Regards
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    Now....


    your file is a fraction of the size of mine and what appears to be as good in quality.

    so is my process still Right? for archiving even though interlacing is an issue, or should I be using a different format for capture,

    my theory although files are huge, the quality at 10bit lossless should be the best,

    but then I see your converted file a fraction of the size??

    this all so confusing as to what is the best workflow to follow

    Regards


    I do appreciate any feedback
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  22. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Lossless files will always be larger than lossy. Typical lagarith/huffyuv files a 30 - 60 gb per hour. You chosen format is larger than that.


    But the quality can be down to the efficiency of the codec compared with the visual perception of 'quality'. And since your captures are archival rather than delivery then you should always capture at the best your hardware will allow.


    Difference in file size is attributable to one thing and one thing only. Bitrate. AVC (h264) is a much more efficient codec than quicktime and as jagabo stated both could look the same.
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    Thanks for the reply


    So what are you saying then??

    am I archiving in the wrong format ? even though I thought lossless was the way to go ?

    should I be using apple prores 422 ??? but these are not lossless ?


    regards
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    You are cropping to 702, This might not be a legal resolution, It works in the computer environment but may not be compatible with some hardware.
    For PAL I crop to 704x576, de-interlace with QTGMC and encode to H.264 using the following commend:
    Code:
    ffmpeg -i input.avi -vf "format=yuv420p,setsar=sar=12/11" -c:v libx264 -crf 10 -x264opts colorprim=smpte170m:transfer=bt470bg:colormatrix=bt470bg:force-cfr -c:a aac -b:a 192k Output.mp4
    Most script apps work in 8 bit only so you may want to start capturing in 8 bit.
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    Methinks you misread me.


    I was merely comparing typical lossless codecs you your chosen one. You my wish to try capturing with vdub and lagarith just to see if you perceive a difference.


    Lossless is def. the way to go.
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    I second Vdub and AVI 4:2:2 lossless, wider compatibility with after capture applications.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    You can just force your player to deinterlace on the fly. Here's the video deinterlaced with QTGMC, the black level lowered a bit, and encoded as h.264.
    What filter you used to de-interlace, I've tried both TFF and BFF and produced flickering frames.
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    Ok Guys,

    thank you for all your feedback, and please keep it coming, as I'm a little new to this, it's a lot of info to take in and get right all at once.

    but your help is very much appreciated, thank you....

    But, maybe I should be looking at this differently, are you saying

    part of my issues and limitation is the capture software that AJA provided called Control Room! that i'm using to archive the VHS

    I was under the impression this is the only software I can use to capture, thus being forced to .mov lossless files that this software (Control Room) offers


    but ..... am I reading between the lines that other capture software can talk to my AJA kona card and offer a better lossless archive file format method of capture, outside of AJA Control Room software ??

    possibly adobe premiere or alike

    I was under the impression I'm forced to stay with Control Room Software? when arching/capturing

    So are we saying other Capture software may offer better file formats and results ??

    Oh I'm still confused,


    regards
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  29. Archive your orginal 10 bit 4:2:2. Make separate versions for watching. AviSynth+QTGMC is pretty difficult to get set up and requires Windows. I recommend you try using Handbrake first. Its deinterlacing isn't as good as QTGMC but it's similar to what most HDTVs do. On the Video tab set the Deinterlace pulldown to Yadif. The Preset to Bob. On the video tab set the frame rate to 50 fps.
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    Hi

    Thank you for the feedback


    I must say even though the last conversion you did was good, the first one was very very impressive not sure what settings you used, but wow

    comparing the the two MP4, the first one processed in AviSynth+QTGMC is amazing and guess this is what I need to master, I have installed AVISYNTH on my windows video machine


    just need to read up on how to use QTGMC, but very very impressed with your first result


    so I guess what we are saying, is that the 10bit .mov 422 lossless file has the maximum info and data from the archive VHS. So this part is good.

    But the PC / Windows / Flat Screen Monitor / Windows Drivers / Codecs etc etc

    can not decode this RAW .mov file correctly and display the info nicely, as to way the first converted .mp4 file you did in QTGMC


    Regards
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