x265 CRF Encoding - Quality & file sizes.

[pezwf]

I've been experimenting with different settings to see what is the smallest file size I can get and still have excellent quality.
I am basically trying to archive my collection of TV series.
Not being an expert, I'm using DVDfab 11 to rip the files from the discs.

Firstly, I seem completely unable to rip some PAL DVDs without "combing" on the moving lines, whilst others rip perfectly with no noticeable loss of quality from the original mpeg 2 stream. This happens with every codec I've tried, x264, x265, mpeg4, xvid, etc.
e.g "It Ain't Half Hot Mum" only produces acceptible quality when using mkv passthrough, copying the original video & audio streams to an .mkv container. This does mean that the file size is considerably larger than I would like.
Other DVDs (such as "Follyfoot") compress using x265 without any noticeable artefacts. Anybody know why this is?

Secondly, I had been ripping all the Blu-Ray material to 1080p x265 using a constant rate of about 5-bit and a 2-pass setting for higher quality. This seems to give excellent quality with a file size slightly smaller than an x264 720p version of the same episode.
I've now been experimenting with x265 CRF encoding.
Example: "Supernatural" Season 13, Episode 20. Run time: 42:21
5-bit x265 encoding at 1080p results in a file size of 921MB and quality that looks (to me anyway) as good as the original Blu-Ray.
CRF 15 encoding = 920MB
CRF 26 encoding = 586MB
CRF 35 encoding = 244MB


The thing is, ALL of these seem to look as good as the original which can't be the case!

Is it that the higher CRF values can only be played back effectively on higher end hardware?
Can someone please explain this to me?
Smaller file sizes are wonderful, but no good If I can only play them back on high end PCs!

Any help / explanations / information would be appreciated as I am fairly new to all this.

Thanks

Pez

[sneaker]

Is it that the higher CRF values can only be played back effectively on higher end hardware?

No. (Quite the opposite, actually: lower bitrate requires less potent hardware.)

Can someone please explain this to me?

Your eyes are bad. (Or you are accidentally playing the wrong files.)

[sneaker]

Firstly, I seem completely unable to rip some PAL DVDs without "combing" on the moving lines, whilst others rip perfectly with no noticeable loss of quality from the original mpeg 2 stream. This happens with every codec I've tried, x264, x265, mpeg4, xvid, etc.

Depending on the content you should apply inverse telecining (IVTC) or de-interlacing before encoding to x265.

[pezwf]

Unfortunately the combing remains when checking the "deinterlace" box on DVDfab before ripping. I can't rip DVDs without it as it crashes the program!

I tend to agree that it must be my eyes on the quality but I would appreciate a second opinion.
I was mistaken on the file sizes by the way, the one ripped at CRF 15 is a HUGE 4.9GB!
Here's a link to a test folder with the standard and the highly compressed one:

http://www.filefactory.com/folder/a015c643e465adfc

Please let me know what you think of the quality.

Thanks again.


Pez

[sneaker]

- Don't upload the complete files, e.g. 30 seconds is sufficient. (*)
- Don't upload to external hosters. They can be slow, otherwise difficult or even impossible to reach for other forum members. You can attach files up to 500 MB (1 GB?) directly in this forum.



(*) You can cut e.g. the first 30 second using MKVToolNix GUI by opening the file (you can un-tick all other tracks except video), in Output tab set "split by parts based on timestamps" and entering: "-00:30" into the field, then clicking "Start multiplexing" at the bottom.

[johnmeyer]

You are probably simply seeing interlacing. This is normal, and you do not need to get rid of it or do anything. You only see it on some DVDs because those are actual video, whereas the ones where you don't see combing were created from 24 fps film (or 24p video).

So, don't do anything. Just proceed with your project, but when you watch the films turn on the deinterlacer that is probably built into your viewing software.

[sneaker]

This is normal, and you do not need to get rid of it or do anything.

While not strictly required to IVTC/deinterlace:
- HEVC is not very efficient at encoding interlaced material
- interlaced HEVC is not well supported in free software

So I would recommend to always de-interlace interlaced sources before encoding using x265 (or other HEVC encoders). If the source is telecined, I would always apply IVTC (irregardless of the codec).

[pezwf]

You are correct about the quality, but it only becomes really obvious when I zoom in.

Check out these pic of Dean. the one on the left is done at a CRF of 26, the middle one is 5-bit, two-pass encoding, and the one on the right is done at CRF 35.


https://files.videohelp.com/u/294730/Dean%20Compare%2034.jpg

Also here are the two video clips for my standard (5-bit, two pass) encoding and the CRF 35

https://files.videohelp.com/u/294730/Supernatural%20-%20S13E20%20-%20Unfinished%20Busi...ez%20split.mkv

https://files.videohelp.com/u/294730/Supernatural%20-%20s13e20%20-%20Unfinished%20Busi...35%20split.mkv


As to the "combing" effect, it does seem to be the interlacing, thank you for that, but I thought I was getting DVDfab to de-interlace these files for me!
When I play them back, I use 'PowerDVD' which is set to apply deinterlacing 'based on bitstream flags' - obviously these are not being set automatically (is there a way to do this in MKVToolNix GUI?), because when i set it to 'always apply' I get the sort of quality I'm looking for.

However it would be nice if the files were all de-interlaced already, allowing higher quality playback on devices and software that don't have the de-interlace option - does anyone know of a way to do this?

Thanks again for all your help - I'm learning all the time!

Pez

[sneaker]

Note that visible combing can mean either interlacing or telecining. Make sure you are de-interlacing the former but IVTC the latter. So first you need to find out what you have (maybe someone who has the Supernatural DVDs can chime in).
If you are really unlucky you have sources which are hard to fix, e.g. NTSC field-blended to PAL. Unfortunately, there is no general solution that fits all.

[pezwf]

Sorry sneaker, the DVDs I'm converting as an example are the "It Ain't Half Hot Mum" set (originally from 1974), the Supernatural was an example of quality from a Blu-Ray.
However, I think it probably is the deinterlacing as when I turn on the 'deinterlace all' setting in PowerDVD, it results in a quality almost as good as the original mpeg2, without most of the 'combing'
I'd still like to know of any programs that can actually remove it from the finished .mkv file...

[pezwf]

Check these out to see what I mean:

https://files.videohelp.com/u/294730/Player%20Settings%20-%20Default.jpg
https://files.videohelp.com/u/294730/Player%20Settings%20-%20Deinterlacing%20always%20on.jpg

[blud7]

Use MakeMkv instead to dump the video, then encode using Staxrip, Handbrake or Hybrid with deinterlace settings

[manono]

Is there an untouched sample in all this? If not, cut one from the DVD. Use DGIndex and don't make an MKV. 10 seconds with steady movement will be plenty. Mark off a short section of VOB using the [ and ] buttons and then File->Save Project and Demux Video. Make the resulting M2V file available.

[pezwf]

Here you go.

https://files.videohelp.com/u/294730/Sample.demuxed.m2v

Will you be able to tell what the issue is?

[davexnet]

Here you go.

https://files.videohelp.com/u/294730/Sample.demuxed.m2v

Will you be able to tell what the issue is?

what do you mean by issue? the opening titles and the end sequence in the courtyard are interlaced -
but interlaced looks OK when watched because it's handled by the TV/media player in real time.

The original file will be the best quality. If you really want to encode it to save space you could
Bob deinterlace it using QTGMC and re-encode. Here is a result using Virtualdub2/ffmpeg-x265
using settings fast/27. You could choose 25 or 26 for bigger, but better quality files.

I remember this show from when I was a kid, one of my mum's favorites

[pezwf]

Ok. I think I understand now. PowerDVD (which I normally use as the player) is set in the settings to deinterlace playback base on 'bitstream flags', and obviously the playback direct from DVD and the .mkv with the passthrough from the DVD has this flag set, which made PowerDVD deinterlace the playback.
I had thought that the .mkv files I'd created were better quality, but all the time it was just the interlacing setting!

So, what are bitstream flags, and how can I set them on an h265 .mkv?
They are not set by DVDfab when it creates the files using h264 or h265 codecs, but are when it create the passthrough files.

Pez

[davexnet]

I dont' know what the rest of the forum think but I personally wouldn't recommend interlaced x264 or x265.
If you're really set on creating a smaller file,
use the method I used in the sample above, Avisynth script/QTGMC bob de-interlace to create a progressive file
resize it properly (which I neglected in my sample above) and re-encode

[pezwf]

I can't seem to work out how to use Avisynth, but I've converted some episodes of "Xena" with handbrake - it gives good results but it takes a long, long time!
I am a bit miffed that DVDfab's built-in deinterlacer doesn't seem to work, but I'm waithing for their tech guys to get back to me about that.

Thank you and every one else here for your help, I've learned a lot over the last few days.

Pez