Which cameras do I need?

[davorr]

We wanna live stream the church ceremonies via OBS. Trying to define the setup. Here some requirements:

• permanent installation
• 3 Full HD cameras, far from each other
• 70m long cables (sdi, ndi…?)
• optical zoom, remotely controlled on some control surface
• nice picture
• budget not fixed, but somewhere between 4-7k $ would be fine

Any ideas? Thanks!

[smrpix]

You haven't mentioned audio. And your budget may be a bit low.

Take a look at this: (I am completely unaffiliated with it, but they give a good overview. Also some good tutorials at videoguys.)

https://ptzoptics.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Essential-Guide-to-Church-Live-Stream...pment-List.pdf

[TreeTops]

We are doing what you want to do much cheaper than your budget using Zoom. Borrowed camera & tripod from a Church member. Downloaded free Zoom. Emailed members to get Zoom application and wham all done. Working just fine.

[babygdav]

We are doing what you want to do much cheaper than your budget using Zoom. Borrowed camera & tripod from a Church member. Downloaded free Zoom. Emailed members to get Zoom application and wham all done. Working just fine.

Zoom - the video application currently BANNED from use by ALL US Senators, at ALL Google sites and employees, etc due to existing security flaws and threats actively exploited.

The hacks where porn show up on your live stream is just one of many problems.

[babygdav]

https://www.churchproduction.com/
https://www.avinteractive.com/markets/house-of-worship/
There are some really good magazines focued on only church A/V setups and gear.
Great resources as you expand out (e.g. Full on led displays, live broadcast, etc.)

They showcase different setups monthly.

....

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicmicrostudiocamera4k
You can do it with professional grade cameras with full sdi control, remote switching, etc.

...

You can do it with ptz (security camera like) ones.
https://www.churchproduction.com/education/building-a-ptz-camera-system-for-your-church/
https://ptzoptics.com/choosing-a-ptz-camera-for-your-church/amp/

...

You'd want to think it through.
E.g. Will you ever want more cameras?
Mass may not need it, but if you hold weddings.

E.g. Mics
Only up front? Mobile? All the way in back?

Lighting
How low will the light levels get? Lux - a camera that can't handle the latest levels you anticipate won't do.
Color balance? Some cameras can't handle funky new led lighting well.

Broadcast? Recording? Storage and distribution - online, dvd.

[Cornucopia]

Please don't regurgitate the false, fearmongering BS!

Zoom had previously some security settings that defaulted to more OPEN, when the current crisis spiked their uptake, they took steps to make those settings default to CLOSED (unless you opt out). There can now be up to 6 levels of security applied (non-publicized ID, internal server authenticated only, pre-registered whitelist only, password on all meetings, multi-factor auth., end-to-end encryption), along with greater lockout options for during-meeting sharing capability.

By the time the news had come out about that, they had already taken care of it.

The other "banning" stuff - Google, M$ - they have their own apps/platforms that compete with Zoom. No surprise they want to take advantage of the notoriety to promote themselves instead. Similarly the people in the Senate who were pushing this were investors in those competitors.

In other words, anybody who was/is still encountering zoombombers are people who may be technologically clueless and/or lazy/bad habits.

The only legit gripe about zoom lately has been the account data sharing w 3rd party businesses. They were called out on that and apologized and curtailed it (but didn't stop altogether). You can now explicitly opt-out of this.
However, this is indicative of a major problem with the tech industry as a whole, because they all do data sharing for profit to some extent.

Note: I say this as a user admin for an institution which happily & successfully uses zoom, has at least 1000 users, hundreds of sessions a week since beginning of March and so far have had ZERO zoombombings. Just depends on maintaining good security habits.
......................

However, I probably wouldn't recommend relying on it for streaming to users in a church environment for the simple reason that a basic account only allows up to 100 attendees, and only allows meetings up to 40-45 minutes before cutting you off cold. Most churches I know, that be would severely limiting.

But I don't think the OP was really asking specifically about online/streaming options. More it was about equipment to use on the production side rather than the distribution side.

Scott

[babygdav]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/technology/zoom-security-dropbox-hackers.html

https://in.mashable.com/tech/13117/hackers-are-selling-zooms-zero-day-exploits-on-dark...0-report?amp=1

https://www.cnet.com/google-amp/news/zoom-every-security-issue-uncovered-in-the-video-chat-app/

https://m.economictimes.com/tech/internet/zoom-video-conferencing-app-is-not-a-safe-pl...w/75181094.cms

I'll let the reader decide since even this past week, security vulnerabilities exist and countries continue to add Zoom to their list of vulnerable apps.

Not even on the same level as a Windows 10 vulnerability where a quick patch will be released and things go back to normal.

An entire app ban - complete no use, no install. That from the highest level of governments. So rare, it makes no sense to not listen.

....

Online / Streaming - anyone in the corona lockdown able to go to church anymore? No?
Right. Perfect to start thinking about this in the new age of sars/swine/mers/corona.

Also, what about elderly who can't make it to church?
The sick? Disabled?

That said, it's all built in and included nowadays with control decks like what Blackmagic offers. It's simply part of the modern age of video production and doesn't cost much more than an internet connection nowadays to do live streaming.

Even camcorders come with built in live streaming nowadays.
https://www.churchproduction.com/gear/jvc-gy-hm200hw-streaming-camcorder/

[Cornucopia]

I read those articles. They basically reiterate what I just said, except in a more salacious & provocative manner.

Scott

[davorr]

Thanks friends! Lot of great ideas!!!

The audio is already covered.

I was just curious which cameras would you prefer? PTZ? DSLR?
Which cabling: ndi or sdi for a long distance cable?

[Cornucopia]

Depends on your workflow, your quality expectations, and your budget. You want to get the best cam that your budget can afford.

Note that length need not be an issue for either hdmi-based, nor usb-based cams, as there are known good workarounds (hdbaset extenders & usb3 fiberoptic extenders, respectively).

Are those cams going to be manned?

Do you have dynamic range issues in that venue (bright spotlights, sunlight through clear window)? That will strongly determine your calibre of cam quality.

Are you hardware or software switching? (OBS, I would assume)

Scott

[babygdav]

1. Ptz cameras are easier to deal with, setup, install.

Basically, they were designed for this, whereas with cameras, you can use ones with bigger sensors for better very low light images, but you'd have to assemble the kit - rotating base, remote controllable lens - and still have a slew of cables and potential issues.

That said, both have been used along with camcorders.

2. Ndi and sdi both introduce latency delays.
A good sdi connection is 1 frame or less.

Same with ndi if you're running gigabit Ethernet and routers/switches, but with slower Ethernet, your latency can go up to several frames (ie. The video lags the real speech noticeably.)

If you've already got coax in the building at all the right places, easy enough to run sdi / hdmi over that to save money with converter boxes.

For a new, proper build, ndi with gigabit equipment (which is easier to extend down the street as needed, too. Lol. Let's say you have a satellite building built and then use a laser communications link to beam building to building.)

3. https://www.newtek.com/tricaster/mini/
https://www.vmix.com/

Commonly used ndi production switchers.

....

If you use ptz and ndi, generally much easier to upgrade as you go because everything just works (easier). 2k to 4k, just swap in new cameras. More cameras. Just connect one cable.

[davorr]

Depends on your workflow, your quality expectations, and your budget. You want to get the best cam that your budget can afford.

Note that length need not be an issue for either hdmi-based, nor usb-based cams, as there are known good workarounds (hdbaset extenders & usb3 fiberoptic extenders, respectively).

Are those cams going to be manned?

Do you have dynamic range issues in that venue (bright spotlights, sunlight through clear window)? That will strongly determine your calibre of cam quality.

Are you hardware or software switching? (OBS, I would assume)

Scott

Very good questions!

Regarding the budget, I'm trying to find a sweet spot. It is not set ready. I have to make a proposal and then we'll see.
I think the cams are more there to be set and forget, but maybe from time to time there will be some camera movement or zoom needed. I planned more to add excitement for the viewer just by switching the cameras. Coz I don't know if they can manage always to have 2 guys: audio and video. If that one guy is going to mix the audio, he shouldn't have too complicated tasks for video. Just trying to make an efficient long term setup, if that makes sense...

It is a church with smaller windows, not so many lights there. The nature of that kind of church is more on the mystical, silent side and doesn't need too much lights. I've seen some great results with some Panasonic Lumix (GH5 or somethin) under the low light conditions. There are in fact already two Sony Alpha (II and III) in the church on disposal, which is great. So maybe we even don't need an upgrade But I was just curious, if an upgrade would make any sense. You asked, if the cams are gonna be manned, TBH they probably won't. So those current Sony are probably gonna be enough. Got to buy only HDMI to NDI boxes. BTW yesterday I tested NDI in OBS and it was really easy to integrate my iPhone into the setup. But the latency was different among the connected cameras. Maybe there is some setting in the OBS, got to investigate....

[davorr]

1. Ptz cameras are easier to deal with, setup, install.

Basically, they were designed for this, whereas with cameras, you can use ones with bigger sensors for better very low light images, but you'd have to assemble the kit - rotating base, remote controllable lens - and still have a slew of cables and potential issues.

That said, both have been used along with camcorders.

2. Ndi and sdi both introduce latency delays.
A good sdi connection is 1 frame or less.

Same with ndi if you're running gigabit Ethernet and routers/switches, but with slower Ethernet, your latency can go up to several frames (ie. The video lags the real speech noticeably.)

If you've already got coax in the building at all the right places, easy enough to run sdi / hdmi over that to save money with converter boxes.

For a new, proper build, ndi with gigabit equipment (which is easier to extend down the street as needed, too. Lol. Let's say you have a satellite building built and then use a laser communications link to beam building to building.)

3. https://www.newtek.com/tricaster/mini/
https://www.vmix.com/

Commonly used ndi production switchers.

....

If you use ptz and ndi, generally much easier to upgrade as you go because everything just works (easier). 2k to 4k, just swap in new cameras. More cameras. Just connect one cable.

Great ideas!

Didn't know that I can re-use the coaxial connecters in the walls for that purpose in general. You probably solved some other problems that I had outside this project
Yeah, PTZ seems to be simpler in terms of scalability...

Maybe I should firstly give those two above mentioned Sony Alpha's a try. You said something regarding a rotating base and remote controllable lens. Do you have some links? Didn't know that there are remotely controllable lenses! Or you meant, you can control them with a mobile app?

[Cornucopia]

re: latency, make sure if you use NDI that you are using true full, original NDI spec and not NDI/HX spec. The NDI spec has higher bandwidth expectations, but very low latency (~16 scanlines - less than 1 frame), but the NDI/HX spec is compressed, so uses less bandwidth, but has latency in the 100's of ms and has some (minor) compression artifacts.
In general, SDI & NDI are best, then HDbaseT, then NDI/HX, then anything else (talking long distance stuff here). Always do at least Cat6a & Gbit Ethernet switches, no matter what. Best for them to be physically isolated from standard net traffic, unless you're a whiz at QoS routing.
Unless you have a specific platform that takes advantage of Coax, it is NOT a good idea.
And, almost all newer tech going forward relies on Ethernet/IP infrastructure.

If you're doing locked down shots on some cam angles, you don't necessarily need a PTZ, just a way to manually adjust occasionally. That could save you a lot.
Almost ALL PTZ cams with remote capability (IP, USB/UVC, serial, IR) have rotating base & remotely-adjustable lens zooms. Kinda the whole point of PTZ. I'm a big fan of the ClearOne Unite200 one, but there's plenty of good ones out there. Go with known good manufacturers, though.

The problem with DLSR/mirrorless cams, including Sony Alphas is the age-old problem of design for short-term shots (photo-based) vs long-term shots (video-based). It's not as clearcut as it once was, but there is still a dividing line between cams that shoot continuous well for up-to-30mins (and then stop or overheat, need a reset, etc after that) and cams that shoot as long as power holds out.


Scott

[babygdav]

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/atemtelevisionstudio

Another switcher that handles video and audio.
Runs hdmi/sdi.

....

Issue with most dslrs is the artificial 30 minute cut off time when recording - they will stop, must manually restart.
The other is most will auto shut off in monitor mode after a period of time.

Gh5 for sure was designed to go until the power dies.

....

If not using a camcorder/ptz that is designed for full remote operation, https://www.varizoom.com/product/vzefc2u/ to remote control the lens zoom if you don't have an operator on each.
But if you're doing locked down shots, not that big of a deal unless you're zooming in and out often for some reason.

...
https://cinetics.com/lynx-pan-tilt-kit/
https://store.kesslercrane.com/second-shooter-pan-tilt-head.html

...

Naturally, ptz means 1 person at the switching deck can control cameras, audio, video by himself easier.

[babygdav]

Old coax. If you're lucky, 1080I will work and no need to recable.
1080p probably won't.

[Cornucopia]

Just did a search on "hdmi to coax" adapters/extenders. NONE are reputable brand commercial-grade distributors, just shorter, cheap, easy, lite home use. Like I said, NOT a good idea.

Scott

[babygdav]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YMKIiBNCnk4

Keep in mind. Tons of church production setup videos out there, like this one using dslrs to help you get a quick idea what works, what it looks like, and what's the setup.

E.g. Pan camera base used
https://www.bescor.com/product-page/mp1ac

[davorr]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YMKIiBNCnk4

Keep in mind. Tons of church production setup videos out there, like this one using dslrs to help you get a quick idea what works, what it looks like, and what's the setup.

E.g. Pan camera base used
https://www.bescor.com/product-page/mp1ac

Thanks for the pan base info!
yeah, CBC Owasso is a cool source, lot of useful info there!

[davorr]

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/atemtelevisionstudio

Another switcher that handles video and audio.
Runs hdmi/sdi.

....

Issue with most dslrs is the artificial 30 minute cut off time when recording - they will stop, must manually restart.
The other is most will auto shut off in monitor mode after a period of time.

Gh5 for sure was designed to go until the power dies.

....

If not using a camcorder/ptz that is designed for full remote operation, https://www.varizoom.com/product/vzefc2u/ to remote control the lens zoom if you don't have an operator on each.
But if you're doing locked down shots, not that big of a deal unless you're zooming in and out often for some reason.

...
https://cinetics.com/lynx-pan-tilt-kit/
https://store.kesslercrane.com/second-shooter-pan-tilt-head.html

...

Naturally, ptz means 1 person at the switching deck can control cameras, audio, video by himself easier.

Thanks!

What I don't get are the benefits of a blackmagic switcher over an OBS on a MacPro with 4 HDMI inputs on PCI.
Is it just about the ergomics and a seperate DSP? Can somebody explain to me?


Yes, the time restriction at the DSLRs of 30mins, especially Sony alpha we have. That's an issue. But I've seen some guys hacked the camera, some easy patch killed the time restriction. Gonna try that out

[davorr]

re: latency, make sure if you use NDI that you are using true full, original NDI spec and not NDI/HX spec. The NDI spec has higher bandwidth expectations, but very low latency (~16 scanlines - less than 1 frame), but the NDI/HX spec is compressed, so uses less bandwidth, but has latency in the 100's of ms and has some (minor) compression artifacts.
In general, SDI & NDI are best, then HDbaseT, then NDI/HX, then anything else (talking long distance stuff here). Always do at least Cat6a & Gbit Ethernet switches, no matter what. Best for them to be physically isolated from standard net traffic, unless you're a whiz at QoS routing.
Unless you have a specific platform that takes advantage of Coax, it is NOT a good idea.
And, almost all newer tech going forward relies on Ethernet/IP infrastructure.

If you're doing locked down shots on some cam angles, you don't necessarily need a PTZ, just a way to manually adjust occasionally. That could save you a lot.
Almost ALL PTZ cams with remote capability (IP, USB/UVC, serial, IR) have rotating base & remotely-adjustable lens zooms. Kinda the whole point of PTZ. I'm a big fan of the ClearOne Unite200 one, but there's plenty of good ones out there. Go with known good manufacturers, though.

The problem with DLSR/mirrorless cams, including Sony Alphas is the age-old problem of design for short-term shots (photo-based) vs long-term shots (video-based). It's not as clearcut as it once was, but there is still a dividing line between cams that shoot continuous well for up-to-30mins (and then stop or overheat, need a reset, etc after that) and cams that shoot as long as power holds out.


Scott

Thanks! Great stuff!!

[babygdav]

obs is mostly take video -> send to a stream online.
Cute, very basic, and lots of mousing about to control things on the screen.
Targeted mostly for gamer-boys and tube streamers initially.
Not integrated - meaning your audio deck is sitting next to the PC running OBS. Same with camera pan/tilt controllers.

blackmagic switcher + PTZ cameras + control deck = full on TV studio
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/atem/workflow
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/atem/cameracontrol
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicmicrostudiocamera4k
Everything goes into the Blackmagic Atem, one person can fully control everything from audio/video/color/cameras/graphics/etc with the panels in front of him, plus live stream, record, etc.

....

For a small church with just 3 cameras, you can get away with OBS, even an ATEM mini pro over HDMI, even a Roland (https://proav.roland.com/global/products/vr-50hd_mk_ii/).

Tons and tons of ways to go about it for a small church and simple setup.

Even using just iphones/ipads for the cameras and controller.
https://teradek.com/collections/live-air-family
https://www.myslingstudio.com/

....

What you should do is to come up with a wishlist and start looking at solutions that meet those needs.
You can use publications like Church Production to help give you an idea what small and large churches can do.
eg. Do you want to have the ability to pop up verses on some screen at the same time as the video of the speaker?
eg. Do you want to livestream?
eg. Do you want to record?
eg. How fancy do you want the graphics to be? Static? Motion? Simple? Fancy?
eg. Remote Pan and tilt of cameras? Zoom? Adjustment of exposure?
eg. Picture in Picture? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvxjMBW2Vbk
eg. Lower thirds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKVGV2NerBQ
eg. Greenscreen and virtual sets? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUySZhguU7Y
eg. Teleprompting - https://www.newtek.com/tricaster/

[Cornucopia]

You sound like a shill for BM, @babygdav. Hold on there, little dogie!

OBS may have started off primarily for gamers, but it has evolved way beyond that. It has or can have integration with audio mixing, with ndi, with ptz control, much more. It's not up to the level of BM, FOR-A, Newtek, etc., but for FREE it is by far the best out there. And for what it focuses on, it rivals those paid-for options.


Scott

[babygdav]

Obs is decent for the low end.
So are the other lower end choices.

...

But if you're trying to meet the expected demands on their install, then you'll need to move up.

Control surface for remote camera control, the slew of usual church needs, etc.

...

Eg obs and you need separate controllers for the dslr cameras. So now you've got three remote controllers on the desk + the obs computer.

A system designed from the start for production, bm, tricaster, you simply plug in ptz cameras into the deck and everything's controlled from one point. Obs can do, but not so plug and play.
https://player.vimeo.com/video/371429482
That fast to getting a ptz ndi system up and running on a tricaster (fully operational) vs still installing obs basically.

Offer services like video for weddings, higher end = easier to run wireless from pro camcorders into these higher end systems while live switching all of them + graphics, titles, etc. into a same-day record for delivery.

Obs - right. Not designed for that.
For a small church, adequate.
But as needs increase, obs isn't a vendor that'll support 24/7 and send out techs and replacement gear at a moment's notice to get the production up and running today. The bigger ones can.

...

But depends on the wishlist of the church.
Some do fine with the basics, others want a serious production.

Cost is a very minor part of the install because if they offer video for weddings and events, that's an immediate, continuous income stream.

[davorr]

thanks to everybody! I learnt a LOT!
Friends, is there a PTZ that will give me a great image somewhere near a DSLR?

[smrpix]

thanks to everybody! I learnt a LOT!
Friends, is there a PTZ that will give me a great image somewhere near a DSLR?

Sure:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/887098-REG/Canon_XU_80_PTZ_Camera.html

Might strain your budget.

[babygdav]

thanks to everybody! I learnt a LOT!
Friends, is there a PTZ that will give me a great image somewhere near a DSLR?

https://www.soundandcommunications.com/real-time-pope-phillys-cathedral-basilica/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N3aVMg7gboE

Keep in mind dslr imaging differs from camcorder/ptz imaging.
1. Dslr uses a bigger sensor to capture better in low light conditions even with slower lenses (e.g. F/3.5, 5.6, ....).

The moment you say Fast Zoom DSLR lens
A. Either you're getting a nice f/1.8 ish short zoom
B. Or a f/2.8, 3.5, even 4.0 longer zoom.
All at $1000+ prices.

2. Camcorders/ptz For video work typically use smaller sensors, 1" to 1/2.7", but often come with 20-40x zoom lenses that have fast apertures f/1.2-2.8~. The type of range you'll never get with a dslr.
The fast aperture allows these cameras to get away with smaller sensors.

......

Now, for 2K, what you see on tv, news, etc, all typically use smaller sensor cameras that do well as long as you've got good light levels.

..

Now, check out the Pope's visit.

Of note from the equipment list:
https://www.soundandcommunications.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Cathedral-Basilica-EL.pdf
6 Panasonic AW-HE130KPJ 3MOS integrated pan-tilt cameras

Watch the video.
A. Is this quality sufficient?
B. What's the light levels at your church?
If very low, can you upgrade?

...

Now, nothing wrong with the cameras you have if they can be adapted for use (e.g. At minimum, won't shut down automatically once powered on for use.).
The easiest is to ask the production deck vendor like Newtek - hey, can this camera work? They've likely seen it all being around for 20, 30 years.

[babygdav]

The Sony A7ii and iii cameras have a 30 minute record limit due to silly EU rules.

Apparently, hacks exist to work around this.
https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/a-first-real-sony-hack-removes-the-30min-video-recordi...language-menu/
https://www.sonyalphaforum.com/topic/11142-openmemories-bypass-of-4k-recording-time-li...in-sony-a7iii/
https://sony-pmca.appspot.com/

Doing so should allow these two cameras to work until manually shut off, however, you'd have to test if they overheat running hours and hours since it's not how they were designed to be used.

[Cornucopia]

Hacks void the warranty also. Not a good idea for mission-critical work.

I would recommend a combination of:
1. Plain, manually adjusted cams for lockdown shots (longshot overviews, etc)
2. Ptz cams for alternate/supporting/b-roll/cutaways, that way you can switch away make a change while using diff cam and then switch back. Ptz's are great but their movement is always gonna be robotic, so cover the change with a cutaway.
3. Main cams are best cams - dslrs/mirrorless, dig cinema, or ENG type depending on the look you want.
This type of breakdown should apply the money where that feature is most needed.
Plus, it will make it easier on a skeleton crew.

Scott

[davorr]

Hacks void the warranty also. Not a good idea for mission-critical work.

I would recommend a combination of:
1. Plain, manually adjusted cams for lockdown shots (longshot overviews, etc)
2. Ptz cams for alternate/supporting/b-roll/cutaways, that way you can switch away make a change while using diff cam and then switch back. Ptz's are great but their movement is always gonna be robotic, so cover the change with a cutaway.
3. Main cams are best cams - dslrs/mirrorless, dig cinema, or ENG type depending on the look you want.
This type of breakdown should apply the money where that feature is most needed.
Plus, it will make it easier on a skeleton crew.

Scott

This makes sense. Thank you.
Do you have any suggestion for a plain cam (No.1)?