VHS to Digital / TV Broadcast Quality

[Eric-jan]

It al depends on which equipment is available so far we know the OP has a "MAC" it all depends which interface he can use, over the years Apple changed a lot in that, depending the "make" year, it will have many different "faces" for that, older ones have Thunderbolt 2 the newest will have Thunderbolt 3/USB-C, i prefer Thunderbolt 2 (MBP 2013 - 2015) for this version of Intensity Shuttle because this is the fast one of the 2 flavours it comes in.
For professional video color correction/grading and editing, Davinci Resolve Studio (Studio version is not needed, Resolve version is free, Studio is a one time pay version, unlike FCP) is widely used, it's user interface is good for the job.
The OP should first sum up the (recording?) equipment that he already has available, that would save a lot of guess work in answers to be given, this could make the capture process easier/faster, it all depends.... the "make" of the MAC will dictate which capture device (iMac PCI?) or interface converters (MBP) will be needed, if any.
If professional recording equipment is going to be used, this could change the perspective on how to transfer the VHS/analog media into digital format.
If there is no Windows PC available, this has to be setup from ground, with a legacy PC/OS for old capture devices ? the speed will not be optimal for this, slow data rates for storage media..
Windows 10 is no option in this case what i hear all around, (semi?) profesional capture devices like BMD or other brands, will have the advantage to use a recent OS like Windows 10 or Catalina for Apple, the use of fast storage like SSD (m.2) will be available, this will help by uncompressed capture if needed, but capture with a intra frame based codec like ProRes422, or Avid DNxHD will do just fine.
But like i said, a detailed sum up of equipment already available, would help, help us in answering questions, without the guesswork.

[Eric-jan]

Regarding Eric-Jan's comments. Whose advice would you take if you needed to repair your car? A professional mechanic (many of the posters other than Eric-Jan) or a backyard DIYer? Again, "Good enough." probably (I'd say emphatically not in your case) isn't what you need.

Edit: Note that the best answer that Eric-Jan can give are variations of 'It works for me.' vs 'This is how the Pros do it'.

Well, if you think a car is the same as a vcr, there's something wrong with you, there are no professionals in capturing VHS VHS is a consumer format, and there has never been made any good special professional equipment to transfer/capture VHS.
TBC's, genlocks, where made only for having a good broadcast signal with studio equipment, or to copy from tape to tape when needed, so capturing comes down to using the least worse options, one can get, so yes, "works for me" means: with the equipment i have available, so no tons of hardware for me,
also, most people who are asking, don't give a complete list of their hardware/software already available, which is very important to start with ! then further actions can be tailored to that, and a good vcr/dvd recorder or combo option, will be a good head start...

[dellsam34]

The magic word is SDI, works with old and newer OS's PC and Mac alike, I posted this last year:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/393051-Capture-Analog-Video-Losslessly-Via-FireWir...!!#post2550170

[lingyi]

Regarding Eric-Jan's comments. Whose advice would you take if you needed to repair your car? A professional mechanic (many of the posters other than Eric-Jan) or a backyard DIYer? Again, "Good enough." probably (I'd say emphatically not in your case) isn't what you need.

Edit: Note that the best answer that Eric-Jan can give are variations of 'It works for me.' vs 'This is how the Pros do it'.

Well, if you think a car is the same as a vcr, there's something wrong with you, there are no professionals in capturing VHS VHS is a consumer format, and there has never been made any good special professional equipment to transfer/capture VHS.
TBC's, genlocks, where made only for having a good broadcast signal with studio equipment, or to copy from tape to tape when needed, so capturing comes down to using the least worse options, one can get, so yes, "works for me" means: with the equipment i have available, so no tons of hardware for me,
also, most people who are asking, don't give a complete list of their hardware/software already available, which is very important to start with ! then further actions can be tailored to that, and a good vcr/dvd recorder or combo option, will be a good head start...

So lordsmurf (and a handful of others) who provide video high quality tape transfer services aren't professionals?

Not sure what you mean by "good special professional equipment", but there are highly regarded professional machines like the AG-1980 that have been proven (by years of use by multiple people) to be very good for quality video capture.

Do you understand what a TBC does? As Cornucopia stated: "TBC stands for time-base corrector. It corrects WHATEVER signal is in need of it (assuming has support for appropriate connections & signaling protocols)." In layman's terms, it stabilizes the VBI signal to correct errors which may be caused by a myriad of issues. There are dozens of threads where the poster asks about an issue (eg. tearing) and the solution is to run the signal through a TBC. Just because you haven't had a need for one doesn't negate the need of others.

[lordsmurf]

there are no professionals in capturing VHS
and there has never been made any good special professional equipment to transfer/capture VHS.

So I don't exist?
So the AG-1980 and JVC S-VHS decks don't exists?

There's comes a point where limited experience, limited education, and limited skills starts to skew a person's perceptions. Maybe even their reality. They becomes crackpots (wingnuts, lunatics, tinfoil hat wearers). They concoct these weird untruths in their head, and convince themselves that it is truth. Then they attempt to spread these false ideas as truth.

Some people in this world also spread false information for spite, to be contrarian. Some people simply like to watch the world burn. It's often hard to tell the difference between somebody that genuinely espouses the nonsense they're spewing, and the a-holes that just want to mess with others.

Regardless of why you're doing it, please stop.

You seem like a nice person, a hobbyist that finally found a method that "works" (has issues, but you seem to tolerate them, maybe even obliviously so?), but you really do speak of things for which you have no knowledge or experience.

[Eric-jan]

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=110793&p=615302#p615267

[lordsmurf]

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=110793&p=615302#p615267

Am I supposed to be impressed that a newbie called you a genius? I'm not. It's just another instance of newbies misleading newbies.

That person is simply now converting video inside the DVD recorder. And based on your samples submitted to date, it will be ghosting/blended deinterlaced, and still have various timing errors baked into the signal.

[Eric-jan]

I don't understand people's agression towards me, i don't call myself a professional, i don't sell any equipment, i just tell what works for me, with the least amount of equipment, people are wise enough to decide for themselves if that's also good enough for them, nobody else have to tell them that, if it's not, they can put more effort into it, to make it better.

[lordsmurf]

I don't understand people's agression towards me, i don't call myself a professional, i don't sell any equipment, i just tell what works for me, with the least amount of equipment, people are wise enough to decide for themselves if that's also good enough for them, nobody else have to tell them that, if it's not, they can put more effort into it, to make it better.

We're not really aggressive towards you, but rather the information. You've been told many times that what you're saying isn't correct, or is inaccurate, and yet you repeat it to other newbies.

This situation reminds me of myself when it comes to baking. I take shortcuts, don't want to invest time/money/effort just to make cookies or cakes. So they come out modestly edible at best. Fine for myself, but not something I'd inflict on others. Sometimes my creations are outright inedible culinary abortions. Oops! As such, you don't see me on baking sites, telling everybody what I do. Even "works for me" isn't really helpful to others, and may lead other newbies astray. I can cook, and quite nicely. But bake? Nope! That's just not one of my skills -- yet? Though I continue to try, and have some modest successes here and there (my banana nut bread turned out yummy!)

Does that make more sense.

I don't want to seem unfriendly towards you. But I equally can't ignore wrong information, that needs to be nipped when seen.

[Eric-jan]

Okay, point me to: what i'm saying, that is not correct, i want to know that, and not by means of any stupid or vague figurally speaking, (i am no cook or car mechanic) some clear examples please, i only report my findings with the stuff i use,
do i add things to that ? what wrong information do i give ? don't beat around the bush ! this could help the OP also.

[dellsam34]

Another derailed thread, I think the OP is more confused now than before he started this discussion.

[Eric-jan]

Another derailed thread, I think the OP is more confused now than before he started this discussion.

Yes, really sad.... On DigitalFaq it's even worse, wonder how that's possible

[dellsam34]

No, actually over at digitalfaq not many threads gone like this, Most members there are devoted to the hobby, Here you get all sorts of people become professionals overnight just by googling stuff.

[DB83]

I have not read all of this but I see a 'spat' between various members.


What I do (or think) I know is that the term 'pro' (abbreviated since I am certain to get the smelling wrong) has deviated over time.


I am sure I wrote in another topic that in my line of work (far distant from here) I could be considered a pro. And by that I mean that my experience gained over a number of years in my chosen field I gained the knowledge to advise my client of the accepted path. It did not involve much software although in the latter years that was available but the gut reaction that something was not right. And my company (not me since I was on a fixed salary) benefited since a) the client saved and b) would recc others to avail themselves of the company's services.


So, in the context of this forum, a pro could be considered one who from experience knows what their tools do and adjusts their workflow accordingly. It is not, as some people might envisage, a simple equation that if someone earns a living from their chosen activity they are deemed to be a pro.

[lingyi]

So, in the context of this forum, a pro could be considered one who from experience knows what their tools do and adjusts their workflow accordingly. It is not, as some people might envisage, a simple equation that if someone earns a living from their chosen activity they are deemed to be a pro.

+1

As I stated above, the OP (who seems to have left) needs the highest quality professional level transfers, not the "good enough" argument that Eric-Jan is pushing.

[dellsam34]

I think a pro is someone who has been doing this for a living PLUS some professional experience in studio production, Equipment repair or an IT tech or any combination of the above, For instance, I don't consider myself a pro although I've been capturing for certain customers, I repair VCR's and I know my way around the computer but I have never done none of that professionally under a company name nor I went to school for it. But I do believe that both experienced and a pro can give advice.

Also I'd like to point out that It's important when seeking help to read and read and read, do your homework, research and study what you are about to be doing, Once you know all the options and tools available to you then you come to forums like this for specific questions, and that's where experience comes in hand, You want to hear from people who have done it before you to answer those questions or concerns. And maybe one day you will also be helping others.

[Eric-jan]

Also I'd like to point out that It's important when seeking help to read and read and read, do your homework, research and study what you are about to be doing, Once you know all the options and tools available to you then you come to forums like this for specific questions, and that's where experience comes in hand, You want to hear from people who have done it before you to answer those questions or concerns. And maybe one day you will also be helping others.

I completely agree with that one !! most of the time there's a lot of information missing, to give a good answer, and a lot of (wrong) guess work is done, in the answers for that, which are not correct.
Problem is more chicken & egg for the newbee, because the newbee does not know what to ask for in the first place, and what equipment or capture device to buy,
and even, when.... the newbee has some, they might not be the right ones.

[lordsmurf]

I don't consider myself a pro although

Most professionals don't. We just know stuff, do stuff, teach stuff. But if you came into my office, you'd quickly know what I do. If you asked a question, I could give you the answer. Or if not, I'd know where to go to fetch the answer (and I don't mean Google, I refer to people/colleagues).

I have a photographer friend that claims "he's just a guy, not a real professional" but his income is from teaching photo and selling prints. His house is littered with gear, and his own work. He travels the world, quite literally. But "he's not a professional". Right. Modesty.

More than just modesty, in fact. The psychology of "I'm not famous, good enough, etc" is widespread, so pros often downplay their own skills.

Some of us also just don't want to deal with stupid. When I'd mention that I worked at studios, people would ask me something like "Did you work on the Avengers". No. And when I inform them of such, they'd look confused. I worked on tons of stuff that most people have never heard of, because it wasn't a Disney/Fox/Sony/etc blockbuster, or a crappy reality TV show. Many were on TV, and other pieces had a historical importance, so I enjoyed what I did. In 10 years, nobody will remember "Real Housewives" of wherever, but they will have passing knowledge of what got to work on.

Most people that say "I'm a pro!" aren't.

[Eric-jan]

You give a good example with this, with the music branch it's the same, i did voluntary work for a short time at a local radio station here in Haarlem, you meet people that make real good music, in my eyes they are real artists, just like the commercial artists, who do make money with their music, i think there's allmost no real difference, both are very dedicated in what they are doing,
maybe the non-commercial artist performs better because he has to earn his money in an other occupation, and spend less time in making music.
In the "olden days" they made also good movies, you can't compare the technology with what we have now, it's not the (hardware) tools that make the professional, but the craftsmanship in using these.
But it seems there's no middelground for you, it's pro all the way or non at all, some people just want an easy solution to transfer their VHS tapes.
I have no idea if the OP of this thread is who he say he is, because my guess is, he can find a better solution closer in his working area, and he doesn't need a computer to do so, interfacing a VHS vcr with the recording equipment should be possible, even a TBC should also already be available, Even the BBC does some ground breaking research in archiving old video tapes, preserving it in a format so it will be even better restored at a later time with better techniques to refine the image quality.
True, understanding the basics will help to find a solution, i guess a TBC has memory storage to "stack" the tv lines, within a stable (generated) sync signal...

[lordsmurf]

This thread is going more off-topic, but oh well, conversation is getting interesting...

maybe the non-commercial artist performs better because he has to earn his money in an other occupation, and spend less time in making music.

Most successful people (be it minor or major success, but especially the majors) owe a great deal of their success to luck.
Right place, right time.
Meeting/knowing the right folks.
Sure, knowledge/education/talent went into the success, but luck played an equal part.
There's scores of knowledgeable/educated/talented people that didn't get "a break". Sadly, the cards were not dealt in their favor.

In the "olden days" they made also good movies, you can't compare the technology with what we have now, it's not the (hardware) tools that make the professional, but the craftsmanship in using these.

Then and now, skills matter.

But it seems there's no middelground for you, it's pro all the way or non at all

Not at all.

and he doesn't need a computer to do so,

Huh?

Even the BBC does some ground breaking research in archiving old video tapes, preserving it in a format so it will be even better restored at a later time with better techniques to refine the image quality.

I don't think BBC has made any major strides in the past decade.

i guess a TBC has memory storage to "stack" the tv lines, within a stable (generated) sync signal...

Sort of. There are a lot of chips in a TBC, and you have to remember that TBC is a loose term. So the TBC needed must fit the task. Make no mistake, some sort of TBC is always required. To make matters more confusing, lots of items claim "TBC" where none exists, or their definition was loosely interpreted (mostly to claim it in marketing documentation).

[ConsumerDV]

Fun thread.

Transferring VHS-C typically entails putting the smaller cassette into a VHS adapter shell that allows playback in a standard vcr.

Typically VHS-C cassettes are used in a VHS-C camcorder. Many late 1990s-early 2000s VHS-C camcorders have TBC, also quite a few of them are of SVHS-ET variety with SVideo output. They are abundant on ebay.

Having worked in production & broadcasting, I know that it is expected that all tape outputs go through a TBC before editing, before mixing/compositing, before broadcast, and BEFORE DIGITIZING & COMPRESSION. All.

When you say that tapes were going through TBC before being used do you mean that TBC was included in the chain, or do you mean that an extra dub was made just to re-build the timing? If it is the latter, would not it deteriorate the picture, given that the signal is analog?

[Cornucopia]

Vhs-C tapes are most optimally played in the device that created them (as are most all analog tapes), and in their case, this means the original camcorder. Beyond that, using another camcorder or vhs-c deck is acceptable, if not optimal, but so is using a full size vcr with a properly working adapter. I successfully did this for over a decade transferring vhs to other formats. Most folks here who have had issues with adapters were using faulty or cheaply made ones, I would guess. There WAS quite a range of quality at that time. I used both a motorized and a non-motorized version. Cannot remember the brand any more, but it could have been a Panasonic? JVC? Major company, I think.

As far as TBC, since the workflow I did most commonly included transfer to another format (usually digitizing for editing, distribution, or archiving), this would include the TBC/Framesync along with ProcAmp in-line at the time of transfer, to minimize generational loss as well as runtime hours put in.

Scott

[Alwyn]

along with ProcAmp in-line at the time of transfer

Scott,
What do these actually look like/consist of? Do you have a link or a pic of one? I've heard a lot about them but have never seen one.

[Cornucopia]

Most outboard fullframe TBCs and Frame Syncs I've used (Snell & Wilcox, Leitch, Harris, FOR-A, Prime Image, DPS) as well as the tapedecks' own line TBCs (JVC, Sony, Panasonic - pro lines) have ProcAmps built in. Those are fairly simple analog adjustments (hence "processing amplifier"), so they are cheap and easy enough to implement. And since they come in handy setting up the signal to proper reference standards (thus maximizing the capabilities of the deck & Tbc), it makes sense for them to be common in the analog workflow chain, especially if they end up being digitized. And they used to also be available on their own, including even once upon a time, being sold by Radio Shack.

They consist of:
1. Luma Black-level ("contrast")
2. Luma White-level ("brightness")
3. Chroma phase ("hue")
4. Chroma level ("color saturation")
and sometimes
5. Peaking/eq filtering/preemphasis ("enhancement/sharpening")
and perhaps sometimes even
6. Dropout compensation ("noise reduction")

Scott

[Alwyn]

Thanks Scott.

[Caius]

I'm selling my D-Vhs to some American who wants to pay in dollars.

[Attachment 65132 - Click to enlarge]

[nogginvid]

I've read through a lot of this. I work in the broadcast production industry and have done since the early 90s.

TBCs are vital for analogue VTRs. Most broadcast VTRs (2", 1", Betacam/Betacam SP etc.) will have built in, or integrated add-on, TBCs - so their composite (or component in the case of Betacam) output will be a nice clean signal suitable for broadcast use, where all sources have to be precisely timed and these outputs will be nicely compatible with broadcast capture cards like those from AJA and BlackMagic etc..

Colour-under consumer and industrial/professional VCR formats like VHS/S-VHS/Betamax/UMatic/Video8/Hi8 also need time base correction, but because they are cheaper formats, these TBCs aren't always included in the VCR, and are relatively rare in consumer decks.

Some higher-end colour-under decks have built in, or optional add-on, TBCs (BVU Umatics, and higher end consumer and pro JVC and Panasonic S-VHS decks etc.) - again outputting a reasonable quality signal that will be captured OK by broadcast capture cards. Lower-end models don't have TBCs - and usually require an external TBC. In most cases this will need to be a 'frame synchroniser TBC' that will store at least a frame of video and output it with nice clean syncs. On particularly poor replays this can mean you get frame drops or frame repeats as the synchroniser struggles to cope with a badly timed replay, or poor quality signal from the tape that it can't clean up. Some are better than others in this regard. Not all frame syncs make great TBCs (they have other uses where they will be fed high quality sources) so always good to get a recommendation for your specific use case.

DVD recorders have to timebase correct their record sources prior to MPEG2 compression encoding, and so DVD players can often be a 'quick and dirty' solution for time base correction - as they often output the TBC-ed input on their component or composite outputs, though some may include an MPEG2 encode/decode in this chain too I believe (so you may see some blocking or other quality loss). A good DVD player TBC shouldn't deinterlace and reinterlace - though the component outputs of some DVD players will be deinterlaced (and the quality of that deinterlacer may not be stellar), so if you capture in 480p/576p/720p/1080i (*)/1080p then you may be baking in deinterlacing artefacts (* Although 1080i is interlaced, any decent upscaled will deinterlace 480i/576i to 480p/576p prior to scaling to 1080i to maximise resolution, rather than scaling the 240/288 line fields to 540 line fields).

Because consumer DVD players were designed to cope with recording old VHS recordings, they can be a good 'home use' solution - but they are probably not going to out perform a decent frame sync that works well with VHS sources. For many they will be good enough though. I had Sony and Philips first gen DVD recorders, and the Sony was pretty good at coping with first gen VHS, and was definitely better than the Philips. Neither were as good as a decent frame sync TBC though.

In the main decent quality capture cards from AJA, BlackMagic etc. that do accept composite inputs may not do well with non-TBC-ed VHS sources - as the signal is just too variable in terms of line timing and composite chroma quality - that's why most people recommend putting a TBC in the capture path if the VCR/VTR doesn't have a built in TBC.

[ConsumerDV]

Thanks, @nogginvid!

[Caius]

I've read through a lot of this. I work in the broadcast production industry and have done since the early 90s.

TBCs are vital for analogue VTRs. Most broadcast VTRs (2", 1", Betacam/Betacam SP etc.) will have built in, or integrated add-on, TBCs - so their composite (or component in the case of Betacam) output will be a nice clean signal suitable for broadcast use, where all sources have to be precisely timed and these outputs will be nicely compatible with broadcast capture cards like those from AJA and BlackMagic etc..

Colour-under consumer and industrial/professional VCR formats like VHS/S-VHS/Betamax/UMatic/Video8/Hi8 also need time base correction, but because they are cheaper formats, these TBCs aren't always included in the VCR, and are relatively rare in consumer decks.

Some higher-end colour-under decks have built in, or optional add-on, TBCs (BVU Umatics, and higher end consumer and pro JVC and Panasonic S-VHS decks etc.) - again outputting a reasonable quality signal that will be captured OK by broadcast capture cards. Lower-end models don't have TBCs - and usually require an external TBC. In most cases this will need to be a 'frame synchroniser TBC' that will store at least a frame of video and output it with nice clean syncs. On particularly poor replays this can mean you get frame drops or frame repeats as the synchroniser struggles to cope with a badly timed replay, or poor quality signal from the tape that it can't clean up. Some are better than others in this regard. Not all frame syncs make great TBCs (they have other uses where they will be fed high quality sources) so always good to get a recommendation for your specific use case.

DVD recorders have to timebase correct their record sources prior to MPEG2 compression encoding, and so DVD players can often be a 'quick and dirty' solution for time base correction - as they often output the TBC-ed input on their component or composite outputs, though some may include an MPEG2 encode/decode in this chain too I believe (so you may see some blocking or other quality loss). A good DVD player TBC shouldn't deinterlace and reinterlace - though the component outputs of some DVD players will be deinterlaced (and the quality of that deinterlacer may not be stellar), so if you capture in 480p/576p/720p/1080i (*)/1080p then you may be baking in deinterlacing artefacts (* Although 1080i is interlaced, any decent upscaled will deinterlace 480i/576i to 480p/576p prior to scaling to 1080i to maximise resolution, rather than scaling the 240/288 line fields to 540 line fields).

Because consumer DVD players were designed to cope with recording old VHS recordings, they can be a good 'home use' solution - but they are probably not going to out perform a decent frame sync that works well with VHS sources. For many they will be good enough though. I had Sony and Philips first gen DVD recorders, and the Sony was pretty good at coping with first gen VHS, and was definitely better than the Philips. Neither were as good as a decent frame sync TBC though.

In the main decent quality capture cards from AJA, BlackMagic etc. that do accept composite inputs may not do well with non-TBC-ed VHS sources - as the signal is just too variable in terms of line timing and composite chroma quality - that's why most people recommend putting a TBC in the capture path if the VCR/VTR doesn't have a built in TBC.

How about mine VCR JVC HM-DH30000U ? Too bad my pinnacle 700 pci can't capture with it.

[Attachment 65148 - Click to enlarge]

[lordsmurf]

Few points of correction here...

DVD recorders have to timebase correct their record sources prior to MPEG2 compression encoding, .

Not correct. Not TBC, but mere non-TBC frame sync. That has downsides. Few DVD recorders have anything like a TBC inside, it would add more costs (more chips, more R&D), and that's simply not possible for consumer gear (ie, dollars matter more than quality).

as they often output the ... input on their component
though the component outputs of some DVD players will be deinterlaced (and the quality of that deinterlacer may not be stellar)

By the time you get to the component, it's double-processed. No pro or prosumer/hobby players have component (those use Y/C, s-video), merely cheap consumer Funai-type combo units. Internally, those are always composite down from the Y/C, badly expanded back to the component or HDMI. For NTSC, this is especially a mess, usually forced deinterlaced. Never capture component from a VCR. Many combos don't even allow it, component/HDMI is only for the DVD output.

Because consumer DVD players were designed to cope with recording old VHS recordings,

Not correct. (And setting aside that you stated "players".) DVD recorders were made to timeshift video. Timeshifting implies recording from antenna, cable, and satellite. The conversion from tape was often not stated, and briefly mentioned. Few recorders, like Panasonic ES10/15 type were actually built with tape input source in mind.

BlackMagic etc. that do accept composite inputs may not do well

Blackmagic cards tend to not do well, even with TBC. SD was an afterthought feature, and those cards do poorly at it. Great HD cards, lousy SD cards.

that's why most people recommend putting a TBC in the capture path if the VCR/VTR doesn't have a built in TBC

It's recommended in the same way that it's suggested that you put gas in car. It's not really optional, but required.
- For the task of driving, you need the car, and all that it entails. Keys, fuel, license, etc.
- For the task of converting consumer analog video, you need the proper tools. VCR, TBCs, capture card, at minimum.