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  1. Hello! Sorry if this has been covered on here before. I recently converted my old 8mm family movies with a Wolverine Moviemaker (Standard Version) The results are ok, but some low light parts are grainy, noisy. I've tried a few things such as Adobe Premiere Pro (Neat video) etc. with no success.
    Maybe I don't know what I'm doing. It's fairly complicated lol. Anyone have any success fixing this issue? Any other programs or apps that will help improve the quality? Anyone provide an online service for a reasonable cost? I would prefer to not re-do them with a different machine. Thanks for your time!
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  2. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    not much you can do with low light video. there is no way to get back details that were never there.
    --
    "a lot of people are better dead" - prisoner KSC2-303
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  3. Member
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    Avisynth TemporalDegrain was used quite successfully on a video by hello_hello
    last month, perhaps if you post a 30 second or sample it would help
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  4. Thanks. I'll try to get a clip on here. I'll check out Avisynth. Is there a mac version?
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    Originally Posted by paulmolive View Post
    Thanks. I'll try to get a clip on here. I'll check out Avisynth. Is there a mac version?
    No.
    - My sister Ann's brother
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  6. Hello again, After more failed attempts with various programs I'm giving up on this for the time being. Too complex for me lol. Can anyone recommend someone, or an online service who can help me clean up these movies? Here are some examples of the 8mm family footage that I transferred with a Wolverine Moviemaker. The outdoor results are ok but some indoor footage is really grainy. I would prefer to not re-do them on a different machine. Thanks Image
    [Attachment 52750 - Click to enlarge]
    Image
    [Attachment 52751 - Click to enlarge]
    Image
    [Attachment 52752 - Click to enlarge]
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  7. We need a video sample if you want help
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  8. I agree that a video sample would help. The still shots look like pretty standard low light noise and you should be able to make significant improvements.

    I do film transfers with a Workprinter (8mm and Super 8) and also with a 16mm transfer system of my own design. The key to transferring film to video is to expose for the highlights. If your highlights are blown out, you'll never get them back. By contrast, despite what was said earlier, you can usually recover a fair amount of detail from the shadows of a film-to-video transfer. The key is to use a non-linear gamma curve during post production. All that means is that you use a tool which brightens the shadows without touching the exposure for the brighter portions of each frame.

    Once you have the gamma adjusted, you use software to correct many of the other problems you will likely have. Here is a fairly extensive "before/after" video showing some of the film transfer restoration I've done:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBAHzO7rJS0

    I think I did the gamma adjustment prior to all the restoration steps, so you won't see that part of the process.

    If you are interested in the software that I used to do this, it is all documented in several long threads over at doom9.org, all of them started by "VideoFred". I adapted his scripts, to make them faster and also to orient them more to restoration of old film rather than improving the look of fairly pristine film, which is what he was working with. If you don't have much dirt, grain, or stability problems, the restoration can actually create some magic that improves the apparent resolution. However, if you apply those things to old, grainy, dirty film, the results look horrible.

    Here are those links:

    The power of AVISynth - restoring old 8mm films

    Capturing and restoring old 8mm films

    The power of Avisynth: new 8mm film restoring examples
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  9. Thank you for the replies! Here's a couple random samples. I'm really hoping there is a way to improve the quality

    Paul
    Image Attached Files
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  10. I see quite a few issues with those samples which may not be related to your transfer.

    1. They appear to have MASSIVE compression artifacts. Are these two samples exactly what you transferred, or did you cut and then re-render to MP4? For instance, the attached frame shows nothing but compression artifacts. Whatever film grain might be there is swamped by the JPEG artifacts. Those artifacts are there because you did the wrong thing when saving the file. You need to change what you are doing and fix that because it makes no sense to try to fix a problem that you created, and which can be avoided.

    2. The clip of the kids waving indoors in front of the couch probably does have some grain issues, but like the other clip, you need to solve the compression artifact problem first.

    3. Both clips have massive color problems. As you watched during the transfer, was the film really this yellow? I have seen blue, red, and yellow film which results when one or more color layers fade, but one does not. However, your clips don't quite look like that, and instead they look like something was wrong in the capture setup.

    The good news is that the captures appear to be frame-accurate (one frame of film for each frame of video); the highlights are not blown out very much (could be a little better, but it's good enough); and you have timed them to play back at what looks like approximately the correct speed (most 8mm and 16mm silent film plays at 16 fps and all Super 8 plays at 18 fps).

    So, tell us more about whether those two samples were simply cut from the original transfer or, if not, how you created those two clips. Hopefully your original transfer does not have those compression artifacts. If we can get pristine samples, then we can figure out how to make them look really good.
    Image Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	vlcsnap-2020-04-16-13h17m45s998.png
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Size:	644.8 KB
ID:	52760  

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  11. Thanks again John for your help with this. Yes I did modify them. I had to reduce the speed as they were too fast (1.5 speed I think). That's the annoying flaw in the Wolverine. I can't remember what program I used to slow them down, but yes I may have done some damage there. At the moment, I can't find the originals. I will keep searching and post back shortly. Cheers!
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  12. If the Wolverine happened to store its results in an AVI container, there is an old hack called AVIFrate which can change the header on the AVI file to alter the playback speed without re-encoding. It takes less than one second to run on any AVI file, regardless of its size or length. I use it all the time for my film transfers because my film transfer systems all save them in a standard 29.97 fps file.

    Hopefully you can find the originals. If you can, I can show you how to make some significant improvements.
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  13. Something like that could be a start for sample 2:
    LWLibavVideoSource("F:\montage\Sample 2.mp4")
    coloryuv(off_u=15,off_v=0,cont_v=60)
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  14. So I managed to find almost all of the original transfers from the Moviemaker. A couple were missing, so I just spent all day re-transferring a 30 minute reel (The same reel that those samples were from). Anyways, they look a bit better straight off the Wolverine. I was going through some of the other "raw" transfers off the machine and some of them look a little dark. Can this be adjusted with decent results? Or should I re-do them as well with more exposure?
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  15. I don't know about your other videos but "sample 2.mp4" has lots of crushed blacks that can't be restored. Those need to be re-captured.
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  16. Hello again! These are samples of the direct transfers from the Wolverine with the speed not corrected. They were automatically saved as MP4 files direct to a Kingston 32GB SD card. So I'm not sure if that AVI trick would work. I cut these samples with mpeg streamclip. I should mention that of all my reels, this one might be the worst quality. It is extremely yellow. The original film reel is the same. I remember watching them through the projector as a kid and just thought it was normal. I have approximately 25 other reels and most of them look much nicer than this. Anyways, is there a safe way to slow these down? And then clean up some of the noise? Thanks again
    Image Attached Files
    • File Type: mp4 1.mp4 (6.81 MB, 25 views)
    • File Type: mp4 2.mp4 (22.44 MB, 30 views)
    • File Type: mp4 3.mp4 (11.21 MB, 26 views)
    • File Type: mp4 4.mp4 (6.82 MB, 50 views)
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  17. A quick example with some pretty heavy noise reduction, etc.
    Image Attached Files
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  18. You can change the frame rate of the videos without reencoding. Here's a batch file that uses ffmpeg to change the frame rate to 18 fps:

    Code:
    ffmpeg -y -i %1 -c copy -an "%~n1.h264"
    ffmpeg -y -r 18 -i "%~n1.h264" -c copy -fflags +genpts -an "%~n1_18fps.mp4"
    del "%~n1.h264"
    You can drag/drop an mp4 file onto that batch file to create a new 18 fps mp4. "_18fps" is added to the base file name. So video.mp4 becomes video_18fps.mp4. The original file is not changed. If 18 fps isn't right you can use whatever rate you want. Just change the "18" to the value you want.
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  19. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    You can change the frame rate of the videos without reencoding. Here's a batch file that uses ffmpeg to change the frame rate to 18 fps:

    Code:
    ffmpeg -y -i %1 -c copy -an "%~n1.h264"
    ffmpeg -y -r 18 -i "%~n1.h264" -c copy -fflags +genpts -an "%~n1_18fps.mp4"
    del "%~n1.h264"
    You can drag/drop an mp4 file onto that batch file to create a new 18 fps mp4. "_18fps" is added to the base file name. So video.mp4 becomes video_18fps.mp4. The original file is not changed. If 18 fps isn't right you can use whatever rate you want. Just change the "18" to the value you want.
    Really? Do you think that works with most video containers? Heck, if it only works with MP4, that is still an amazingly important find for me. Thank you, very much!

    [edit]Well I tried it and the copy worked fine, but the second line produced all sorts of errors:

    Code:
    [h264 @ 02fa62a0] Format h264 detected only with low score of 1, misdetection po
    ssible!
    [h264 @ 02ebbc80] missing picture in access unit with size 1970662
    [h264 @ 02fa62a0] decoding for stream 0 failed
    [h264 @ 02fa62a0] Could not find codec parameters for stream 0 (Video: h264, non
    e): unspecified size
    Consider increasing the value for the 'analyzeduration' and 'probesize' options
    test clip.h264: could not find codec parameters
    Input #0, h264, from 'test clip.h264':
      Duration: N/A, bitrate: N/A
        Stream #0:0: Video: h264, none, 25 tbr, 1200k tbn, 50 tbc
    Output #0, mp4, to 'test clip 18fps.mp4':
    Output file #0 does not contain any stream
    Here's a link to the little 2MB MP4 file I was trying to use as a test:

    https://www.mediafire.com/file/ybcvb0f1x2yyx0p/test_clip.mp4/file

    It's an 852x480 widescreen SD 29.97 progressive video, with Mediainfo reporting an AVC codec. Maybe the codec is the problem. I'll poke around a bit more ...

    This older ffmpeg code I had lying around did change the speed (1/2 speed), and did not throw any errors, but based on the time it took and the fact that the file size is larger, it obviously was re-encoding:

    Code:
    ffmpeg -i "test clip.mp4" -filter:v "setpts=2*PTS" output.mp4
    Last edited by johnmeyer; 19th Apr 2020 at 21:08.
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  20. I'm not seeing those warnings with that file. Just a "Timestamps are unset in... stream 0" warning and lots of "pts has no value" warning.
    Code:
    Input #0, h264, from 'test clip.h264':
      Duration: N/A, bitrate: N/A
        Stream #0:0: Video: h264 (Main), yuv420p(tv, progressive), 852x480 [SAR 1:1 DAR 71:40], 29.97 fps, 29.97 tbr, 1200k tbn, 59.94 tbc
    Output #0, mp4, to 'test clip_18fps.mp4':
      Metadata:
        encoder         : Lavf58.42.100
        Stream #0:0: Video: h264 (Main) (avc1 / 0x31637661), yuv420p(tv, progressive), 852x480 [SAR 1:1 DAR 71:40], q=2-31, 29.97 fps, 29.97 tbr, 18432 tbn, 18 tbc
    Stream mapping:
      Stream #0:0 -> #0:0 (copy)
    Press [q] to stop, [?] for help
    [mp4 @ 0000017db5bdd100] Timestamps are unset in a packet for stream 0. This is deprecated and will stop working in the future. Fix your code to set the timestamps properly
    [mp4 @ 0000017db5bdd100] pts has no value
        Last message repeated 77 times
    [mp4 @ 0000017db5bdd100] pts has no valueB time=00:00:04.22 bitrate= 496.8kbits/s speed=8.34x
        Last message repeated 77 times
    [mp4 @ 0000017db5bdd100] pts has no valueB time=00:00:08.55 bitrate= 490.3kbits/s speed=8.48x
        Last message repeated 74 times
    [mp4 @ 0000017db5bdd100] pts has no valueB time=00:00:12.72 bitrate= 494.6kbits/s speed=8.41x
        Last message repeated 73 times
    [mp4 @ 0000017db5bdd100] pts has no valueB time=00:00:16.83 bitrate= 622.9kbits/s speed=8.36x
        Last message repeated 73 times
    [mp4 @ 0000017db5bdd100] pts has no valueB time=00:00:20.94 bitrate= 600.8kbits/s speed=8.32x
        Last message repeated 73 times
    [mp4 @ 0000017db5bdd100] pts has no valueB time=00:00:25.05 bitrate= 585.9kbits/s speed= 8.3x
        Last message repeated 19 times
    frame=  473 fps=149 q=-1.0 Lsize=    1928kB time=00:00:26.16 bitrate= 603.6kbits/s speed=8.26x
    video:1925kB audio:0kB subtitle:0kB other streams:0kB global headers:0kB muxing overhead: 0.144770%
    I was unable to find a way to change the frame rate (without reencoding) in a single ffmpeg command line.
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  21. This wiki says that ffmpeg cannot change frame rate without re-encoding, so perhaps it is not possible after all:

    https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/ChangingFrameRate

    This forum post claims that it can be done, although with quite a few more steps than just the two you posted. It's too late in the evening now and I'm not at my main computer so I can't test it now.

    https://superuser.com/questions/1088382/change-framerate-in-ffmpeg-without-reencoding
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  22. Obviously, it works with some videos. All four of the OP's samples, for example. And many others I've tested (all AVC, video only). I believe it works because raw h.264 streams don't have timestamps for each frame. So when you mux back to mp4 you can apply whatever timestamps you want. I don't think this will work with VFR videos.

    It worked with your video too -- although there's something odd going on. After the remux ffprobe reports the first frame is not an I frame. When you open the video in an editor the first frame of the original video is gone (and the video has one fewer frame overall) -- but the rest of the first GOP renders properly. So somehow that I frame must still be there, it's just not "visible".
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  23. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    A quick example with some pretty heavy noise reduction, etc.
    Sorry I am unable to open this file to view it. Using a mac, not sure if that makes a difference. I'll keep trying/. Also just installed ffmpeg and having trouble figuring it out. I'm a total novice here lol. Learning as I go.. Is it possible to slow down the videos in virtualdub without re-encoding?
    Last edited by paulmolive; 20th Apr 2020 at 12:10.
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  24. Originally Posted by paulmolive View Post
    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    A quick example with some pretty heavy noise reduction, etc.
    Sorry I am unable to open this file to view it. Using a mac, not sure if that makes a difference. I'll keep trying
    Remuxed to MP4.
    Image Attached Files
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  25. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by paulmolive View Post
    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    A quick example with some pretty heavy noise reduction, etc.
    Sorry I am unable to open this file to view it. Using a mac, not sure if that makes a difference. I'll keep trying
    Remuxed to MP4.
    Wow that looks really nice!
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  26. It's not great. Some tweaking could do even better. But part of the problem is that the AVC compression in your source video has made the noise much harder to remove. If you have the option of using a higher bitrate or saving the film scanner output as a sequence of high quality JPG/PNG/BMP images you can probably get significantly better results.
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  27. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    It's not great. Some tweaking could do even better. But part of the problem is that the AVC compression in your source video has made the noise much harder to remove. If you have the option of using a higher bitrate or saving the film scanner output as a sequence of high quality JPG/PNG/BMP images you can probably get significantly better results.
    +1.

    Jagabo is exactly correct.
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  28. Is there a step by step tutorial anywhere for beginners using ffmpeg? I can't seem to figure it out.. And I can't find any other easier methods to convert an MP4 without re-encoding. Thanks again for your help

    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    You can change the frame rate of the videos without reencoding. Here's a batch file that uses ffmpeg to change the frame rate to 18 fps:

    Code:
    ffmpeg -y -i %1 -c copy -an "%~n1.h264"
    ffmpeg -y -r 18 -i "%~n1.h264" -c copy -fflags +genpts -an "%~n1_18fps.mp4"
    del "%~n1.h264"
    You can drag/drop an mp4 file onto that batch file to create a new 18 fps mp4. "_18fps" is added to the base file name. So video.mp4 becomes video_18fps.mp4. The original file is not changed. If 18 fps isn't right you can use whatever rate you want. Just change the "18" to the value you want.
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  29. Download a static build of ffmpeg. For example:

    https://www.videohelp.com/download/ffmpeg-4.2.2-win64-static.zip

    I recommend you extract the entire folder tree somewhere convenient on your boot drive. But all you really need is ffmpeg.exe. If you put that in C:\Windows it will be available to any CLI window or batch process.

    The command sequence I gave you is for a batch file. Start Notepad, copy/paste the three lines of text into Notepad. Save the result with whatever name you want but be sure to specify.bat as the extension, for example, "RemuxTo18fps.bat". If you put it on your Desktop you can just drag/drop any source file onto the batch file to remux it as 18 fps. If you put the batch file in your SendTo folder you can right click on any video file to bring up the context menu, and select Send To -> RemuxTo18fps.bat from there.
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  30. Ok thanks. I'm using a Mac primarily but will dig out my old windows laptop to try this. I'll post back if it works
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