What is a measure of decent quality capture from video to digital transfer

[Kajaboss]

[Attachment 52391 - Click to enlarge]Recently, I have captured a load of .mov files using EZGrabber VideoGlide Capture 1.5.1 (developed by www.echofx.com) software from my Hi8 tapes, via my Sony CCD TR920e 1997 video camera. I have no point of reference as to whether the quality of the captured film is poor ok, good or excellent, as I have not done this before. I am also, like so many other users of this forum, a novice of the tech and am in need of guidance. I have posed the question once before as to the basic settings I need to apply in the Video Glide Capture software, to give a good quality base from which I can then generate clips, stitch clips together, make clips in different formats etc. I am a stills photographer principally, having used high end slrs and dslrs for 35 years, shooting for picture library stock. I have taken Hi8 video over the years for fun, with out too much thought as to the post processing element.
The video camera has a an S-video slot, but I don't have an S-video plug or lead to connect it to the VideoCapture dongle, relying solely on the White, Yellow and Red cables. The results so far are IMO rather poor, grainy, blurry, unsharp, and peppered with what I understand to be the effects of de-interlacing, ie lots of tiny lines around the edges of content. As far as I can see there is no option in the 'settings' of the software, to either interlace or de-interlace, so I'm guessing the software is doing automatically. I have attached screen shots of settings that I have used,
[Attachment 52390 - Click to enlarge] for information.

[davexnet]

As I kind of implied in the other thread, see if you can capture 720x576 at the original (25 fps) frame rate.
In your image above, what other options are there for "Video Format", and "Optimized for",
also what shows up if you click on "Video options"

[jagabo]

Yes, PAL video should be captured at 720x576 25 fps. You should see comb artifacts when capturing camcorder video -- it's a natively interlaced format. You need to set your h.264 encoder to encode interlaced. Actually h.264 compression shouldn't be used for capture. Use a fast lossless codec like huffyuv to avoid any detail loss. Worry about compression later. If you're capturing audio (even silent audio) don't use any audio compression. Use s-video cables whenever possible. Post a sample capture for more detaild analysis.

[usually_quiet]

Yes, PAL video should be captured at 720x576 25 fps. You should see comb artifacts when capturing camcorder video -- it's a natively interlaced format. You need to set your h.264 encoder to encode interlaced. Actually h.264 compression shouldn't be used for capture. Use a fast lossless codec like huffyuv to avoid any detail loss. Worry about compression later. If you're capturing audio (even silent audio) don't use any audio compression. Use s-video cables whenever possible. Post a sample capture for more detaild analysis.

Kajaboss has a Mac. Ut Video Codec Suite is one of the very few choices for lossless video codecs if someone is using a Mac, and it is well-regarded by forum members. However, I don't know if VideoGlide allows using third-party codecs or which of the options available within UT Video Codec Suite to suggest.

[Kajaboss]

Hi everyone, firstly may I wish everyone a safe transition during this challenging period we are all facing, where ever you are living. I am in the UK and thank you for responding to my thread. I have attached screenshots of the options available to me with VideoGlide, to help in the conversation.
[Attachment 52400 - Click to enlarge]
[Attachment 52401 - Click to enlarge]
[Attachment 52402 - Click to enlarge]
[Attachment 52403 - Click to enlarge]
[Attachment 52404 - Click to enlarge].
I shall do as davexnet suggests and record some footage at 25fps, but to answer his other question, I don't have 'Video Options'. To answer jagabo, I don't have the option to encode interlace. I will look at huffyyuv and I will invest in an s-video cable and then I post again.

[Kajaboss]

I also have a query about s-video cables. I have attached 2 images go either end. One end is the camera and the other is the Video Capture dongle
[Attachment 52406 - Click to enlarge]
[Attachment 52407 - Click to enlarge]
What cable do I need to buy in order to attach at both ends. plug to socket for both ends? Are they even available, or maybe a jack extension?

[Kajaboss]

Reference Davexnet's suggestion to look at Video options, and I replied that I couldn't find that option. I understand why you said that, as the screen shot I took shows the tab, but bizarrely I now can't find that option anywhere. I have trawled through all the options in Videoglide but cannot find anything.

[jagabo]

You need a standard s-video cable:
https://www.amazon.com/Cmple-S-Video-Cable-Gold-Plated-SVideo/dp/B003WB8JRU/

[usually_quiet]

I will look at huffyyuv and I will invest in an s-video cable and then I post again.

HuffYUV is only for Windows. That's why I suggested the Ut Video Codec Suite. It has a Mac version,

[Kajaboss]

Thanks jagabo, I've ordered one from Amazon.

[Kajaboss]

I've been onto the page on the forum where the Ut Video Codec Suite link is, clicked on it and a folder was downloaded to my iMac. In the folder are a number of txt files, rtf files html files, .css file, itv_logc file and a utv_qt component. I've no idea what part of this I'm supposed to use but of the files .css, utv_lgv and the utv_qt component, none are downloadable or recognised by my Mac. Am I supposed to use part of this?

[usually_quiet]

I've been onto the page on the forum where the Ut Video Codec Suite link is, clicked on it and a folder was downloaded to my iMac. In the folder are a number of txt files, rtf files html files, .css file, itv_logc file and a utv_qt component. I've no idea what part of this I'm supposed to use but of the files .css, utv_lgv and the utv_qt component, none are downloadable or recognised by my Mac. Am I supposed to use part of this?

I wish that I could tell you what to do with the downloaded folder but I know virtually nothing about Macs. Hopefully someone else will know what to do.

[jagabo]

If you can't get a lossless codec working on the Mac you can probably use one of the near lossless codecs like ProRes 4:2:2 (a Quicktime option).

[Cornucopia]

If your mac is of recent vintage, you will have a very hard time using that lossless codec (as 3rd party codecs are not allowed in avfoundation and those components would need to use old Quicktime). If your mac is using Catalina OS version, that hard time will be impossible, as it removed compatibility for 32bit apps (which QT is).

ProRes is your best quality option.

Scott

[Kajaboss]

Hi Scott, many thanks for your input. I have had a look at Pro Res. I'm deliberately withholding using Catalina on my 2019 iMac (I'm on Mojave), for the very reason you mention, as I use 32 bit Adobe CS6 master suite, amongst other things and I have no desire to move to subscription based software. It used to be my job but I'm semi retired now so little income from its use. If and when I am forced to upgrade, if that happens, I'll probably move to Affinity. But back to the current issue, I have had a look on line and there appear to a lot of different Pro Res codecs. Final Cut Pro, Motion and Compression seem to be the 3 main content creators. I don't have any of these. I understand that without one of these 3, I need to download an app called unpackage, which will then allow me to download the ProRes codec. However, having tried this my Mac will not allow me to download unpackage, with a message pop up that states I can only download apps from the store or from recognised developers, of which this is not one! So I'm staring at the metaphorical door but with no way to open it. Am I missing something?

[Kajaboss]

OK I guess that brings us to the end of that discussion since no-one appears to have an answer.

[usually_quiet]

The discussion may or may not be over. Sometimes it takes more than a day or two before or someone comes back with an answer.

[davexnet]

I would try some of the other choices available, eg. dvcpro50. 720x576
Capture 30 seconds and post it here

[Cornucopia]

There are variations on the bitrate or bit depth or color subsampling or resolution, but (barring reverse-engineered knock-offs such as ffmpeg's) there is only ONE ProRes codec. It is built into AVFoundation, so should be available to you even if you don't have those apps. It may just be "dormant".
However, if you only have CS6 as you say, my guess is that that version of the app does not have an Adobe-branded but apple-licensed bypass solution for ProRes (which newer ones do), but rather relies on exporting using the old QT7 architecture with its installable components.
If that is the case, you should be able to install prores and other vital pro qt7 components using this installer:
https://support.apple.com/kb/dl1396?locale=en_US.

If that doesn't work due to your computer being locked down, maybe you need to change your settings...
https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/open-a-mac-app-from-an-unidentified-developer...0.14/mac/10.14.

Note also, dv50 codec is a lossy codec, as is prores, but prores is a much higher bitrate and is considered "visually lossless", while dv50 is NOT. Even dv100 is at a disadvantage compared to prores.
Prores' equivalent quality level competitors are usually considered to be cineform and dnxhd and possibly edius hqx.

Scott

[Brad]

The highest quality option is YUV422, which is uncompressed. But you'd need the storage and uninterrupted write speed to handle it.

Animation is "lossless" but may force a conversion to RGB. Couldn't find definitive info.

Have you had any luck getting ProRes to work?

[Kajaboss]

Thankyou very much to both Scott and Vapareon for your research and effort looking for a solution, but having tried both the methods Scott suggests, I am no further forward. With option one, I get no further than
[Attachment 52501 - Click to enlarge] this, then similarly with option 2 having followed the instructions I end up at the same dead end. I then tried option 3 on the link page https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/open-a-mac-app-from-an-unidentified-developer...0.14/mac/10.14.

and tried to find the 'Open app anyway' button, stated as being in there, but there is nothing
[Attachment 52502 - Click to enlarge] there, not even in Advanced.

[Kajaboss]

I have captured the same clip several different ways using the same EzGrabber Videoglide usb and software. All the results are pretty mixed but frankly I can't tell a huge amount of difference between them. I have also considered buying a used camcorder that has firewire to see if the results would be any better there. Is there any other usb capture software that might be better?

[davexnet]

Generally it's better to capture with the interlacing intact, it maintains the fluidity of motion
from the 50 fields p/s. giving you more flexibility when you convert for your delivery format(s)
whether it's a DVD, streaming to the TV, or PC viewing version.

If you intend to upscale for use on the PC or where ever, you can use software (Avisynth) to de-interlace with good quality
to create a 50 fps progressive file
The Apple intermediate code appears to be deinterlaced, the DVCPro50 has the interlacing, top field first, 4:2:2 chroma sub-sampling
to maintain more color information from the capture.
I haven't looked at the others. I'm sure you'll get a variety of different opinions on this.

[Kajaboss]

Thanks for your input Davexnet, I guess the basic questions I would like to know the answers to are, with all these usb video capture products one can buy-Are they basically all the same? Am I going to get a similar result whatever I use? What IS the software used in the USB capture devices? Having used the s-video cable for this batch of clips, I can't see any appreciable difference between them and the composite ones, which leads me to wonder if I'm wasting my time looking for better quality

[october262]

I've been onto the page on the forum where the Ut Video Codec Suite link is, clicked on it and a folder was downloaded to my iMac. In the folder are a number of txt files, rtf files html files, .css file, itv_logc file and a utv_qt component. I've no idea what part of this I'm supposed to use but of the files .css, utv_lgv and the utv_qt component, none are downloadable or recognised by my Mac. Am I supposed to use part of this?

here it tells you where to install - https://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/6067/ut-video-codec/p1

[davexnet]

Thanks for your input Davexnet, I guess the basic questions I would like to know the answers to are, with all these usb video capture products one can buy-Are they basically all the same? Am I going to get a similar result whatever I use? What IS the software used in the USB capture devices? Having used the s-video cable for this batch of clips, I can't see any appreciable difference between them and the composite ones, which leads me to wonder if I'm wasting my time looking for better quality

Theoretically the S-video cable should give a cleaner result because it keeps the luma and chroma separate on two different wires.
In practice though not everybody see the difference and some have had a better result with the composite

The USB device contains a hardware chip that converts the analog signal into a digital stream to be further processed by your capture software.
The difference is that HW chip, different brands/devices differ in the A/D conversion quality and/or other benefits, such as being able to maintain
stability when the incoming signal degrades due to a poor tape, etc,etc.

[usually_quiet]

I've been onto the page on the forum where the Ut Video Codec Suite link is, clicked on it and a folder was downloaded to my iMac. In the folder are a number of txt files, rtf files html files, .css file, itv_logc file and a utv_qt component. I've no idea what part of this I'm supposed to use but of the files .css, utv_lgv and the utv_qt component, none are downloadable or recognised by my Mac. Am I supposed to use part of this?

here it tells you where to install - https://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/6067/ut-video-codec/p1

Unfortunately, my advice to use UT Video isn't applicable in 2020. It turns out that third-party codecs can't be installed on newer Macs. The newer Macs only allow the use of codecs that are included with AVFoundation, which is a component of the OS.

[Kajaboss]

Davexnet, thanks for explaining that to me. 'Usually quiet', thank you for setting the matter over codecs to rest. I was beginning to think it was ME! I'll consider what to do next and update again.

[usually_quiet]

Davexnet, thanks for explaining that to me. 'Usually quiet', thank you for setting the matter over codecs to rest. I was beginning to think it was ME! I'll consider what to do next and update again.

Actually Cornucopia/Scott provided the info about AVFoundation and the inability to use third-party codecs with newer Macs. Since UT Video Codecs are third party codecs, that means they're not allowed now.

[Kajaboss]

As a postscript to this discussion, I have been in touch with Echofx Support and have been advised that YUV422 codec is the best to use and then iMovie to de interlace. So that is what I shall do, accepting that this is a lossy method.