VHS Capture Help!!

[bencoleman]

Hi, I'm currently capturing some 20 year old home videos which were taken on a questionable camera, so archival quality is already out the window. There seems to be around 6 hours of footage on 8 videos.

I'm capturing with a £20 August vgb100 from a sharp vcr with no tbc, as the budget is low.

I'm capturing to Virtualdub 2 into a lossless x254 avi with lossless audio, the usb capture device seems to keep the audio and video synced nicely.

I'm then de interlacing using the highest settings on handbrake (EEDI2 BOB) with a strong NLMeans noise reduction filter and compressing to RF18, all at about 2 frames per second (which seems slow).

I'll then be taking this into premiere pro or iMovie and applying stabilisation, which makes the shots buttery smooth and nice to watch (also crops the borders). Then some slight colour grading, audio normalisation and slight hiss reduction. They'll then be split up into separate files and uploaded to the cloud.

I'm happy to upload a piece of video, but hope you can tell something from the attached screenshot. It looks very grainy and blurred to me, I might just be over critical and used to hd video?
[Attachment 52082 - Click to enlarge]

Thanks

[DB83]

Upload a sample of the original capture BEFORE you did any of those 'corrections' and the same sequence AFTER.


BTW any noise reduction will soften the image.

[bencoleman]

Hi, thanks for your reply.

Yeah I've found that noise reduction does soften the image, would you just keep the grain? This isn't archival quality, just needs to look good on Apple devices.

The capture is attached, this is captured to lossless x254 in Virtualdub2 and then deinterlaced in handbrake using EEDI2, before compressing to RF18 mp4 for the cloud.

I've looked into using hybrid to deinterlace using qtgmc, is this really worth it considering my source quality?

Thanks

[bencoleman]

Please ignore the audio, no idea what's happened there. Too high sampling rate maybe?

[DB83]

Thank you for the clip but, as I requested, we also need to see the original before handbrake got its mucky mits on it. For a start there is a frame rate issue that itself may not be on the original.


What you see is not 'grain' as in noise. I forget the precise term right now.

[bencoleman]

The frame rate issue may be the deinterlacing in handbrake, as I have not figured out how to properly set up the bob EEDI2, so currently it is 25fps. bob makes the output very jittery, I assume because the fields are the wrong way around.

I'm using handbrake as it easily gives a web optimised and apple compatible output, if there's a way to do this within Virtualdub then that would be great.

Is the image about as good as you would expect?

The lossless capture should be attached.

[manono]

You shouldn't use lossy compression if you intend to do further work on it. Lossless AVI would be much better for your work. And AviSynth. And, as implied by DB83, Handbrake is lousy for intermediate encodes.

[DB83]

Now mediainfo has been known to get it wrong, and it may be working to an assumption based on the codec you used for the capture, but it reports the original as progressive and if that really is the case then de-interlacing is not required. And why de-interlace prior to further work. All you achieve is a reduction in quality.


Even if it is interlaced I would not do an intermediate encode in handbrake or anywhere. You are compressing the footage so already losing the advantage of capturing it losslessly.


I could not detect any noise in the video but then I am not an expert in these matters. Beyond my expertise you need someone to suggest a method of removing that line pattern.


I thought the camera work was quite steady so why also attempt stabilisation. Borders and the head noise at the bottom of the picture and be removed by other means.


But while we are at it maybe a third sample AFTER all the editing that you mention might not go amiss.

[bencoleman]

Hi guys, thanks for your replies.

I understand that it should stay lossless until the final distribution codec, maybe is should keep it lossless after deinterlacing? I thought this would make it incompatible with premiere or iMovie but x254 lossless should be fine. Lossless avi is probably great, but its old and incompatible with modern programs. Avisynth is also old, and seems way too much of a learning curve. Handbreak uses ffmpeg? and it's deinterlacing is apparently just below qtgmc? What makes it lousy?

The VHS capture is home video, definitely interlaced PAL. I've been told that deinterlacing needs to happen first, so that all the data is there, I've been doing this in handbrake. I will keep it lossless throughout as suggested, and only compress at the end.

Most of the camera work is not steady, and stabilisation also takes out the vhs jitter making it really buttery smooth 60p.

Do you see any issue with the quality of the capture? I have no idea what kind of standard can come from VHS home videos, so am looking for some opinions.

I will upload a finished video soon, keeping it lossless until the final distribution format.

Thanks

[DB83]

I do not disagree that original VHS is interlaced. The point I make, and subject to what I wrote, the capture is not.


deinterlacing does not keep all the data. You are actually removing half of the vertical resolution. I already wrote about the quality of the capture.


I do not understand where you get the idea that an 'old' codec should not work in a current system else why would so many on here still suggest using them ? Yes. Avisynth has a steep learning curve but one is not suggesting you learn it but just use the script you are hopefully given within vdub (which will certainly accept huffyuv or lagarith AFAIK (both are present in my install of vdub2)

[PortalWalker]

1. The video shows some horizontal wobbling that indicates a lack of line timebase corrector (TBC) in the VCR. The deinterlacing software is working overtime to try to correct it, and I think that's why the output video is blurry.

2. The graininess suggests a low quality cable between the VCR and the capture card. You will need to use a double insulated S-Video cable to eliminate that.

3. Looking at the histogram, your blacks are crushed. You will need to increase the brightness in your capture card's settings, and then you may also need to reduce contrast in order to avoid blowing out the whites.

[bencoleman]

Hi PortalWalker, exactly what I need!

Yeah I do understand that no TBC degrades the quality. Would temporal smoothing in virtual dub help this, to my eye it seems to? Is there any way to stop this wobbling effecting the deinterlacing?

Ah okay, unfortunately my vcr doesn't have s video output, but I am using a double insulated and high quality start to component cable. Is there anything else which could be causing this graininess?

I will take a look at the colours, I've neglected them trying to get the picture right. The colours seem to flash green and red a lot, what is that?

Thanks for your help!

[PortalWalker]

Yeah I do understand that no TBC degrades the quality. Would temporal smoothing in virtual dub help this, to my eye it seems to?

Not really, it isn't designed to fix timebase issues.

Is there any way to stop this wobbling effecting the deinterlacing?

Not in software that I know of.

Ah okay, unfortunately my vcr doesn't have s video output, but I am using a double insulated and high quality start to component cable. Is there anything else which could be causing this graininess?

Maybe a noisy power supply or bad capacitors in the VCR.

The colours seem to flash green and red a lot, what is that?

VirtualDub's Color Camera Denoise filter can get rid of some of that, and the temporal smoother also helps. I think the red and green are what's actually on the tape, either because of the camera or because of the age of the tape.

[manono]

...maybe is should keep it lossless

It should remain lossless from beginning until the final format.

Lossless avi is probably great, but its old and incompatible with modern programs

Nonsense. If something won't accept Lagarith or UT Video Codec avis as input, then use something else.

Avisynth is also old, and seems way too much of a learning curve.

Learning curve, yes, but worth it for the kind of work you're doing. Old? Is that a serious argument? Then use AviSynth+. It's being actively developed.

[bencoleman]

Okay, if lack of TBC is going to mess with the de-interlacing then maybe it isn't worth the effort. I was doing this with a budget of £20-£30 hoping to save some money rather than send the 8 tapes off to be converted professionally. For £90 I could have them all professionally captured and sent to me.

What is your opinion of professional capture companies? Do you have any recommendations?

[DB83]

Sorry but you get what you pay for. 8 tapes for £90 will at best be through a dvd-recorder or VCR/DVD-combo.


If you want to go down that road then send them one as a trial.


A proper pro outfit would charge nearer £25 per tape or more. I am no 'pro' but I was doing this work 10 years ago and even then I charged £15 per tape and, no, this was not by the dvd-recorder method.

[lordsmurf]

What is your opinion of professional capture companies? Do you have any recommendations?

You must be very careful. Lots of "pro shops" are run by people that know as much as you do, or even less. Some are run by people that spout myth/nonsense, and can bamboozle video novices (or complete video know-nothings). Some place actually butcher your work worse than you did. Some slipshod places can even lose pr damage your videos (a big problem with places like LegacyBox).

Vet them carefully. Research.

£90 ~ $115 USD. Only if the 8 tapes are partially filled would that amount be accurate. Cheap place, cheap crappy work.

[Brad]

my vcr doesn't have s video output, but I am using a double insulated and high quality start to component cable. Is there anything else which could be causing this graininess?

Your capture device doesn't support component (YPbPr). Do you mean SCART to Composite (one yellow RCA cable for video)?

The screenshot looks like the same Y/C crosstalk people keep posting about this past month, caused by capturing composite as S-Video. (Haven't viewed your video sample.)

Linking this post so you can compare his images to yours, but also read my response in post #26 and the replies below: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/395933-Capturing-Scart-with-VHS-DVD-combo-player?p...=1#post2573745