Yeah, that's NOT screen capture (which captures from your video card's buffer or from your OS's overlay renderer(s)). That's (data) stream capture, usually just called "capture". Takes it from the incoming data stream (either from a pre-compressed Firewire/DV stream, or from an uncompressed YUV stream from an A/D converter card/device). So, you could call it capture, just not screen-capture.
PD ought to work ok for you...IF you had the settings right AND you were using a good A/D converter/capture card/device. Easycap is NOT what anyone here would call good. And unsurprisingly, there are even worse knock-offs of that.
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I just was reading this post
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/396085-TRV120-D8-cam-won-t-play-most-old-8mm-tapes...rs#post2574633
where you say:
"Yes look for a camcorder with S-Video out and line TBC feature, Analog tapes are best captured from S-Video not the DV port."
This statement that DV capture of analog tapes is worse than S-Video (line TBC) caught my eye. How about a comparison of DV vs S-Video (no TBC). I guess that's what I've got with my TRV2200E. I actually won an auction for a Digital8 PAL Sony TRV285E for $54. That's where the fun stopped however. When I received it, it was a TRV280 NTSC. Not sure if they guy sent me that because I lucked out on the bidding or what. I suspect that. He'll take it back but now I wonder if most agree with you when you say DV capture is worse than S-Video or is that comparison based only on having TBC? Thanks -
You are quoting the wrong guy, I wrote that and yes DV AVI doesn't even come close to a lossless AVI 4:2:2 captured from S-Video, If you need samples just look for them they are everywhere, you can even make your own tests if you have the equipment, The bottom line is DV is compressed not lossless and it processes the chroma at 4:1:1 for NTSC vs 4:2:2 in lossless, if that's not enough for you then sure go ahead and search for the comparison samples.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling
The chroma sampling type used by different recording systems cause artifacts to be introduced into any recording.
4:1:1 for 60hz ntsc dv systems
4:2:0 for 50hz pal dv systems
4:2:0 for the device you use to record to mpeg-2.
Bit rate limits also introduce encoding artifacts, whether mpeg-2 7000~ kbps by your device or the 25mbps of dv.
Thus, a recording in 4:2:0 at 7000 kbps mpeg-2 may or may not be better than a 4:1:1 recording at 25mbps dv due to both chroma and bitrate limitations.
You need to test to see.
....
Naturally, if you can record lossless to 4:2:2 or better like 4:4:4, then you'll get better quality than the above.
...
For pal dv, because it's 4:2:0 (pretty much the common standard for consumer level recordings anywhere), then it's similar to the 4:2:0 mpeg-2 recording from your device at 7000~ kbps, but better because the bitrate is 25mbps. (All assuming you can get a good video signal as input from the original tapes.)
....
Yes, you can always do better, but you'll need to decide between convenience, quality, time, money.
DV isn't hard. Put tape into camcorder with dv output, plug into pc, start capture.
S-video into tbc into a better capture card (maybe necessary) into lossless codec needs some more setup, testing, tweaking, time.
But in the end, nobody can argue 4:4:4 lossless is bad - rather, it gets you the best "perfect" recording of whatever you've got as an input source with no encoding losses like mpeg, no chroma artifacts like 4:2:2, 4:2:0, etc.
(Yes, even 4:2:2 isn't as good as pure 4:4:4.
http://i.rtings.com/images/chroma-subsampling/subsampling.png
https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/chroma-subsampling)Last edited by babygdav; 23rd Feb 2020 at 23:03.
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Beyond 4:2:2 is pretty much just extra large files, Going from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 some chroma artifacts can be noticeable but the difference between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 is hardly if ever noticeable for low resolution sources, The reason why 4:2:2 is used because most of analog lossless capture software and hardware are optimized for 4:2:2. HD and UHD lossless is better done in 4:4:4 because the huge pixel count add to that the newer HDR and color gamut standards where every bit counts.
I agree that DV PAL is better than MPEG-2 PAL, MPEG-4 in the highest setting is better than DV 25. -
Figure out why it crashes, don't just jump ship to known-worse software because "it works" (phrase used loosely).
There is no 4:1:0.
That'd be alternating quartered chroma, and look closed to badly colorized B&W than color video.
Naturally, if you can record lossless to 4:2:2 or better like 4:4:4,
For pal dv, because it's 4:2:0 (pretty much the common standard for consumer level recordings anywhere), then it's like the 4:2:0 mpeg-2 recording from your device at 7000~ kbps, but better because the bitrate is 25mbps. (All assuming you can get a good video signal as input from the original tapes.)
Yes, you can always do better, but you'll need to decide between convenience, quality, time, money.
DV isn't hard.
S-video into tbc into a better capture card (maybe necessary) into lossless codec needs some more setup, testing, tweaking, time.
But in the end, nobody can argue 4:4:4 lossless is badLast edited by lordsmurf; 23rd Feb 2020 at 19:03.
Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
"There is no 4:1:0."
Typo fixed
"You also confuse the MPEG spec with DVD (ie 7mbps)"
Mpeg-2 is the encoding standard for dvd video.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-Video
My bad.
DV uses intraframe compression unique to the DV/miniDV/DVCPro format.
HDV, which I always used, uses the MPEG-2 format.
Nonetheless, if you have mpeg-2 at 7000kbps and dv at 25mbps, the 3x higher bitrate allows for less compression artifacts in the dv recording (chroma artifacts aside, assuming pal vs pal 4:2:0).Last edited by babygdav; 23rd Feb 2020 at 23:05.
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DVD-Video is the spec. DVD-Video uses MPEG, with strict constraints. But MPEG is not DVD-Video, and the spec is quite large, including 4:2:2, HD, etc.
My bad.
DV uses intraframe compression unique to the DV/miniDV/DVCPro format.
HDV, which I always used, uses the MPEG-2 format.
Nonetheless, if you have mpeg-2 at 7000kbps and dv at 25mbps, the 3x higher bitrate allows for less compression artifacts in the dv recording (chroma artifacts aside, assuming pal vs pal 4:2:0).
Again, DV is the best video available in the Pentium III era, late 1990s to early 00s.
Minimum DV spec was usually a Pentium II 350mhz, but III strongly suggested.
And since you like to link to stuff, I'll add this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_IIIWant my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
While I appreciate the effort in the last 7 posts here , as a beginner in video capture, I find it hard to grasp much of it. On the other post on this forum the guy asks about capturing s-vhs to a laptop. Many of the devices mentioned in that post seem not to be for laptops. The very first reply from apparently one of the the most senior contributors here goes right into speaking about what I think is a capture card for a desktop PC. I was criticized for taking bad advice on buying the Elgato. How am I supposed to know who's giving bad advice? He had quite a few posts and sure seemed to know more about this than me. I only have 2 laptops and no desktop PC. One laptop is pretty powerful, with win10 and another XP but with a firewire port. I know a lot more than I did when I started here but came away from that post on s-vhs capture more confused than before. One mentioned The I-o DATA GV-USB2 and Hauppauge USB-Live 2 610. To my untrained eye they look like the videocap devices that I was told were bad. Is it because the I-o DATA GV-USB2 comes from Japan and not China? The Elgato thing looks like them too. It cost $90 so $70 more than the Easycap thing I started with. When that one guy recommended it I assumed it was something much better but people here say it's just as bad as the $20 Easycap. So as I understand it now, some Pinnacle/Dazzle devices were OK but no one can tell what's exactly inside them. By the way, Lordsmurf, I finally got Virtualdub to work using the Huffy compression after fiddling with the settings after I got much help on that from a youtube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn_TDa9zY1c/watch?v=sn_TDa9zY1c
I guess he's going to get criticized for using an Easycap device but he went step by step in a way that helped me finally get Virtualdub to capture. I would just appreciate the experts here to say exactly what device I should consider buying to replace the Elgato. Like a top 3 or something. I'd just like to be able to compare it to what I have already captured. By the way, although Virtualdub now captures there's an error somewhere that causes the bottom 10% of the video to be missing. Attached is the comparison of the video from Cyberlink which captures the whole thing and Virtualdub which cuts a bit off. So far I can't see a difference between the Vdub and Cyberlink captures in terms of video quality. Thanks!Last edited by hpcampr; 2nd Mar 2020 at 00:48.
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Yes, video can be harder to comprehend. There are many aspects to consider and understand. You must also learn to identify (1) who is a clueless person spouting nonsense, and (2) which companies advertise/market items with broken promises and low quality. This is why it requires patient and reading. And why it requires asking questions, and digesting those responses. You cannot be a rush.
Many of the devices mentioned in that post seem not to be for laptops.
What computers have are communication ports: USB, Firewire, AGP, PCI, PCIe, Thunderbolt, etc. Some of those are only on desktops. But even when the comm port exists, the OS and overall system quality still matters. So when asking for capture cards, lots more details are needed on the system for which a card is being requested.
Building/using a dedicated capture system (or buying/reusing laptop) is usually suggested, because your existing computer probably has too much crap on it (other software running in background, phoning home, with Windows Update being a major offender), which can interrupt the capture process. Offline computers work best for capture, not noisy online system used for everything else.
but no one can tell what's exactly inside them.
I guess he's going to get criticized for using an Easycap device
Also:
- For starters, you do not capture to 60p.
- NTSC is not 30fps, it is 29.97fps. No, you cannot just round up!
- Do not capture audio from video as 44.1kHz
- 17 frames is an unforgiveable loss, more than 0.5s (half second) from 30s. This is what happens due to lack of TBC.
- Doubled framerate Yadif deinterlace? Why? That was entirely pointless.
but he went step by step in a way that helped me finally get Virtualdub to capture.
And ask questions if needed.
I would just appreciate the experts here to say exactly what device I should consider buying to replace the Elgato. Like a top 3 or something.
What OS do you have? That matters.
Attached is the comparisonLast edited by lordsmurf; 2nd Mar 2020 at 01:38.
Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
1. Keep in mind, the hardware capture device is only 1 part of the capture process.
Simply playing a tape in one machine vs another, even if identical brand and model can give you different results due to the variations in old analog equipment and how they go out of spec.
Cables, AC interference, head cleanliness, etc.
In other words, having top capture hardware may still produce subpar results.
2. Few actual do A/B tests and post results across a range of capture devices.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dehmSV2CxDc
This one of the rare examples of capture device testing across a range of parameters, including aspect ratio, overscan crop, etc.
3. Fewer even use an accurate test tape with known recorded values and a vectorscope/waveform monitor to see what's going out of the player.
People might have the best equipment, but if the player is off, they might think "oh, that capture card is crap because the reds are off" - they have no way to confirm whether the player even outputs pure red correctly or not without a scope.
....
https://www.ospreyvideo.com/index.php/products/usb-capture
Naturally, what's better?
One could say broadcast equipment is better built designed, but you'll have ones here who have never bought a video deck with sdi/hdmi output with scope verified signal captured by a sdi input capture device saying oh, they're no good/not as good as choice B.
Simply getting very good without going through all the testing and such, one expects broadcast equipment to do at least that. Why would a $$$ broadcast device be designed to do poorly?
Again, you'll have people here having little confidence in such.
...
Now, if you're going to Ensure the best, I'd think:
Vhs broadcast deck with sdi output to scopes for verification of proper signal output using a test tape. Video8 deck with s-video and tbc like the Sony EV-S3000.
Anything connected after the player before the capture card gets verified by scope for proper signal transmission.
Anything out of spec gets fixed first.
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Capture software - highest quality non-lossy capture for audio and video as you've been shown.
That's realistically the "best" any home user can do.
Not a ton of analog usb video devices out there.
Cheap usb dongles.
Elgato
Hdmi capture devices + svideo to hdmi -
Useless example for this conversation/thread.
3. Fewer even use an accurate test tape with known recorded values and a vectorscope/waveform monitor to see what's going out of the player.
Now, if you're going to Ensure the best, I'd think:
Vhs broadcast deck with sdi output to scopes for verification of proper signal output using a test tape.
Anything connected after the player before the capture card gets verified by scope for proper signal transmission.
Not a ton of analog usb video devices out there.Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2VYgpE3I1A
Anyways, if you ever go the digital8 deck to dv route, this provides some info as to one way to clean up the capture. -
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Sorry, what is it that I need to attach to figure out why 1)it's cutting off the bottom 10% of the video 2) why the avi video doesn't look any better than the mpeg2 video? Maybe the response to the video quality will be because of the Elgato but if not I'd appreciate knowing if maybe I have some settings wrong.
I'm glad to have whatever information I can get to do this as good as possible. It's frustrating to realize I've already spent a lot of my limited time capturing 2/3 of the many Hi8/Video 8 tapes I have but now wonder if I have mediocre captures. Once I got something (the Elgato) that would work on Win 10 I doubled my capturing since I could use the XP /Firewire laptop for the DV's and the Win10 Laptop for 8mm.If I have to do it again, I will. Post processing can be done later on maybe 15% that are special. I had hoped to not rely on these tapes anymore because they're only going to deteriorate more and take up too much space in a very limited area. Thanks for the comments!Last edited by hpcampr; 4th Mar 2020 at 16:30.
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Your VDub capture is 720x480 at 25fps. It should be 720x576 for your PAL tapes.
This page shows the "ATI 600 USB"; if you buy one you need to ensure it comes with the analog input adapter cable. https://linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/ATI/AMD_TV_Wonder_HD_600_USB -
[QUOTE=vaporeon800;2575732]Your VDub capture is 720x480 at 25fps. It should be 720x576 for your PAL tapes.
This page shows the "ATI 600 USB"; if you buy one you need to ensure it comes with the analog input adapter cable. https://linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/ATI/AMD_TV_Wonder_HD_600_USB[/QUOTE
Appreciate the information. There must be another setting somewhere in Vdub I'm missing. I found 2 different settings and both said it was already set to 720x576 but the video captured today was again 480 and cut off the bottom bit. Also huge as 52 minutes were 25gb. It helps to see your info on the ATI 600 USB. I see one that has the RCA females and s-video plug with it. I'm assuming that's the analog input adapter cable you speak of? Thanks. -
Last edited by hpcampr; 5th Mar 2020 at 12:23.
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Get yourself a tbc or one of the recommanded dvd recorder (with TBC-like feature) otherwise you will have surprises such as lost frames and audio/video desync.
good usage:
1-Use Xp (better for capturing) / Good softwares to try: Vdub, VirtualVCR, Dscaler
2- Use a dedicated HDD to store the video( DO NOT store on C drive !)
3-Capture "Flat" preferably (don't tweak the colors, levels too much or noise reduction)
4- Best video codec to use (lossless): Huffyuv, lagarith (takes less space), UTvideo (lesser space than lagarith) or H265 (way less in lossless mode and best signal/noise codec to date: require a horsepower computer)
Good luck to youLast edited by themaster1; 5th Mar 2020 at 15:01.
*** DIGITIZING VHS / ANALOG VIDEOS SINCE 2001**** GEAR: JVC HR-S7700MS, TOSHIBA V733EF AND MORE -
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Q: Is the ATI TV Wonder HD 650 USB not as good as the 600?
A: Not even close. Completely different.
650 is bad. Avoid.Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
This is my first post... I have been researching this subject a lot, but still a lot to learn. I believe my question in in line with the original subject and where it has lead... no intent to hijack.
My goal is to capture 8mm analog tapes (recorded starting 1986 on a Sony VX-801) via best quality to archive for future processing/distribution to family. I cranked up my Dad's old DCR-TRV350 (digital but plays the old tapes), bought a firewire card, captured some files with VirtualDub64, and noticed the colors seemed a bit washed out.
VirtualDub says the saved AVI files are:
dvvideo
yuv411p
720 x 480 29.97 fps
From the various postings, it seems I can get better quality if the camera were to output 4.2.2 sampling (via firewire). I've been searching for a camera with this capability, but have not found one. The DCR-TRV350 has an s-video output, and I also searched the various recommendations for A converters. The problem I have found is all the recommended capture devices are no longer made (e.g., ATI TV Wonder), and the ones currently available on Amazon are ng.
If anyone has a recommendation for a camera that will output 4.2.2 via firewire, please let me know.
Also, if there are any, currently available (and recommended), s-video converters, I would love to know about those. -
1. If you are capturing ntsc (usa) video to dv, then playing back on pc, the colors may look faded unless you compensate for the black levels ( dv 16 = black, pc 0 = black in a range of 0-255).
http://www.glennchan.info/articles/technical/setup/75IREsetup.html
Easiest way to check.
MPHC player, right click and add a video SHADER (16-255 to 0-255). The video should now look fine.
Nothing wrong with the video - only tv vs pc difference.
2. Only if you have PAL format tapes (Europe) will the conversion use 4:2:0 vs 4:1:1 ntsc.
Otherwise, it doesn't exist - no consumer 4:2:0 ntsc dv format.
3. If you capture through s-video, you can go all the way to 4:4:4. (You'll get the arguments you don't need more than 4:2:0, 4:2:2, etc, but like saying you only need 48khz, 16-bit for capturing cassettes at most, there's no downside to using 192khz, 32-bit except for using more disk space.)
Elgato, Hauppauge, Blackmagic, etc all have devices ranging from $100 cheap to $1000s expensive.
Search here and YouTube for quick reviews - tons of choices.
Naturally, nobody has done A/B comparisons of all side by side, so you'll have to go by reviews.
Naturally, your needs and eye for quality will determine how much equipment you'll need.
E.g. Some are fine with the basic, lower resolution $10 usb capture dongles. Others want the whole slew of time base corrector (to stabilize the video image https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tMA5aH_olAQ), waveform monitor (to check for proper levels), digital analog to hd upscaling box (if you want 1080, esp for games http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/framemeister.html), higher quality cards (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxDqTxPj78M), etc depending on needs.
Naturally today, there's impressive post-processing, especially AI based.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gqo5Q4W0rNk
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rTFvfj6u1u8
Besides the old school methods using standard video editing tools here and commercially (eg tmpgenc, davinci, etc).
...
Tons of reviews and posts on the various components - search.
Easy way is to look at the quality of A/B captures posted and ask, do I need it? Can I afford it?
E.g. With the tbc, you can easily see the difference. If you care, check the box, add it to your build.
E.g. If the AI upscaling makes you excited, check the box, add it.
If you don't care, most of the $20 usb capture dongles on eBay will do a basic job. -
Also, keep in mind some aspects do not depend on others.
E.g. If you love seeing old videos upscaled with AI to 1080, but not the stickler for stable, shaky, or so so colors, then you can simply push the dv video capture through AI post processing or a 1080 upscaler box.
All depends on your needs, video contents.
E.g. Parents with night vision (green) recordings obviously don't need very accurate color because it's all green. 444 vs 420 vs 411 isn't going to affect this video as much as a tape of colorful paintings. -
s-video is not, and can never be, anything more than 4:2:2.
Naturally today, there's impressive post-processing, especially AI based.
Tons of reviews
Can I afford it?
E.g. With the tbc, you can easily see the difference.
If you don't care, most of the $20 usb capture dongles on eBay will do a basic job.Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
Thanks for the advice!
Installed MPC-HC. The "16-235 to 0-255 [SD]" Shader option definitely enhanced the color! I assume I'll be doing this later with post processing...
One might assume an analog signal would contain infinite information; however, I'm sure the practical application has some "grain" to it...
I believe my target will be 4:2:2.
OK - I have started searching and increased my budget for the capture device... maybe $500?
Should I search for TBC to be included in the capture card, or is that a separate device?
Also, any other capture card "box" that should be checked?
Should I avoid 4k cards (overkill)? (https://www.amazon.com/Blackmagic-Design-Decklink-Capture-Playback/dp/B00K2BWV5Y/ref=p...ustomerReviews) -
^ Avoid all Blackmagic devices if you are inputting analog. One of many posts on the topic: BMD Intensity Pro 4K "includes a professional, broadcast grade TBC" (Nope!)
Show us the results you've obtained so far.- Download VirtualDub.
- Open one of the AVI files you captured using the DV (Firewire) method.
- Change settings. Video -> Direct Stream Copy. Audio -> No audio.
- Identify a good sample section* that lasts less than 30 seconds (under 10 seconds would be better). Mark In & Out points using the HOME and END keys on your keyboard or the black arrows immediately to the left of the frame counter (bottom of window).
- File -> Save as AVI.
- Attach directly to the forum when you reply here. There is a button labelled Upload files/Manage attachments. If your file is over 200MB, don't post it. You did something wrong in that case.
Last edited by Brad; 18th Aug 2023 at 02:13. Reason: Correct typo
My YouTube channel with little clips: vhs-decode, comparing TBC, etc. -
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