MiniDV, best capture format?

[Terry]

I have tried to capture via a firewire card, mini dv to avi format. Playing back, or coding to mpeg1 or 2 produces a grainy video. If I play the tape directly to the tv set, wala, a perfect picture. I have tried to capture via ulead 6.o, Premier 6.0, and even MGI. It really doesn't matter, the played back avi file is rather blurry in all formats and cases. I have tried to burn mpeg files to vcd and they still get a fuzzy picture played on the standalone dvd player. I have tried this on the desktop as well as the laptop, same results. I am beginning to wonder if the firewire capabilities of the Sony TVR17 is having some problem???

Any ideas of what to do next?

[Craig Tucker]

Are you capturing at DV resolution, for pal this is 720x576.

And what are you using to encode to mpeg

Craig

[bugster]

One possibility is to with interlacing. Your DV video is interlaced, your TV is interlaced, your PC display is not. So when played on your PC you may get starnge horizontal lines during motion scenes. These can be removed by using a de-interlace filter such as that provided by virtualdub or use the de-interlace option in TmpGenc if converting to Mpeg format.

[humdinger]

i think this could be a problem with the DV codec you are using. the microsoft one doesnt give very good playback of dv for conversion. try the mainconcept of sonicfoundry codec, and see if you get better results

[Terry]

I have been capturing at ntsc but I think I have tried pal at one time. I have encoded with everything possible. Ulead, mgi, adobe and TPPGENC. I haven't tried the interlacing situation, but again, I am just getting a fuzzy, not entirely lousy, just not clear. If you look real hard you see pixels around the edges and some shadowing, no horizontal lines. If I run the dv right into the tv set, a beautiful picture....

[Tommy]

What is the source of your video? i.e. is it something you went out and recorded (with the lens) or something you recorded from another source (vcr, etc...)

Also what does the video look like during direct playback from the camcorder to the tv? If its a personal recording (via lens) is it dark or in low light conditions?

[jtor]

If you look real hard you see pixels around the edges and some shadowing, no horizontal lines. If I run the dv right into the tv set, a beautiful picture....

If you're referring to something like 'jagged' edges, that's normal, because you're looking at 2 fields of the frame...interlacing, as what bugster said. Like I said in your other thread, the PC monitor is not the best output device in order for you to judge.

I agree with humdinger, MS DV Codec is not the best codec. But then, the problem in MS codec pops up on multi-generation rendering; so for your purpose, it should be OK (again, not the best).

There's really nothing to fix, on firewire transfer in itself, as everything is fixed already (720x480, 3.6MB/sec, 24bit color, 48KHz audio).

Have you tried my recommendation in your other thread (play the timeline)? Because that will basically show you the quality of your AVI, using a TV. And I doubt if it gives you anything short of the original quality. Note that you're not fixing anything on my recommendation. I just wanted you to see what your AVI looked like on TV.

hope this helps.

[Terry]

The source is video right from the camcorder tape. This is beautiful quality when played from the camcorder to the tv. I will try this new codec and play with the interlacing, but I have a hunch I am losing something from the camcorder to the harddrive. Priemer says not to expect good video when watching through their monitor. Captured with adobe, and avi played back through media player or Elecard, displays a poor video quality. If I burn to vcd, I also get poor quality played on the dvd player. I am convinced that I have a hardware problem and have purchased a fancy soyo motherboard with firewire built in and a Pent4chip. I have also purchased 1gb of ddr memory. If that doesn't get it, I give up......

[Terry]

I will try playing the timeline>>>>>>>

[Terry]

Where is the best place to go for codec for dv capture that will work with either ulead6.0 or Premier?

[Capt_Diode]

I too have experienced poor quality even encoding and burning for TV viewing. I have been advised on this forum that the MS codec is the problem in that it only will show one of the two fields per frame at a reduced pixel rate. I was also advised to use the Main Concept codec for superior results. I never had any luck making the demo work. I don't mind paying the 50 dollars for the software but I want to see it work first. When I tried the codec I had to run some DOS based scripts to turn it on and off, what a hassle. I read recently that Ulead will be licensing the codec soon when that happens I may try it again.

It's my understanding that when you capture via firewire there is "no" loss in quality. In fact if it is archived it could be restored to exact tape quality. I have not had much time to explore this further but I hope some of the more knowledgeable people post further help on this topic. I read often but rarely post.

FWIW, Sony TVR-30, Intel P4-1.7Gig, Intel MB, 512 Ram, AIW Radeon, SB Audigy Platinum (w/1394), 120 Gig C, 80 Gig D 7200.

Captain Diode

[Terry]

Trust me, there is a loss of quality in my case. I can view dvd's, stills, almost everything on my computer screen with perfect clairity. THe transfer of dv tape to my computer via firewire, leaves alot to be desired. Maybe I am too critical>>>>>>>

[vhelp]

terry,

as to your loss in quality, just what is it that you capture
to miniDV tapes (record to that is) ?? . . . that, according
to you, or in your case, you loose quality ? ?

I've ben in the DV endeavors for a while now, and I can say,
as for my miniDV recordings, the final quality, via firewire
is quite good, and IMO, no quality loss! I get so overwelmed
with soo many recordings, and doing many small samples clips
(encodings) like crazy. It's just an exciting endeavor of
mine now. I have since, over came the COLOR washout issues
I've ben crying about in my past threads/posts.

Ok, I recoding to miniDV tapes (30 tapes and growing) mostly
from Satalite, but also DVD and on occassion, VHS. Quality
in all the above sources are very good.

I'm not so sure just how picky you or others are whin it comes
to DV quality. But IMO, and from my experience, quality is
very good, oh, and no loss.

* What's your source(s) quality like? ? ?

I'm not sure why you seem to be adimate about quality loss
every time, in your case.
Can you describe in detail you steps from Source to final
HD veiwing? ?
* hardware (cam/dv device/cards, etc)
* Source (vhs/dvd/satalete/cable/attenna)
* software(s) (ie, used to capture/firewire)
* encoder(s) to encode to final vcd or svcd, etc.
* dvd player/tv set ie, mine is 13"

I have the Canon ZR-10 DV cam, and I record to miniDV tapes,
any brand (cause in my opinion, quality is all the same)
since i don't have pass-through, and wouldn't use it anyways,

Even home-made movies w/ my cam come out great, but you do
have to fiddle w/ color to get the clean quality vcd/svcd's

-vhelp

[spavlovicijr]

I have tried to capture via a firewire card, mini dv to avi format. Playing back, or coding to mpeg1 or 2 produces a grainy video. If I play the tape directly to the tv set, wala, a perfect picture. I have tried to capture via ulead 6.o, Premier 6.0, and even MGI. It really doesn't matter, the played back avi file is rather blurry in all formats and cases. I have tried to burn mpeg files to vcd and they still get a fuzzy picture played on the standalone dvd player. I have tried this on the desktop as well as the laptop, same results. I am beginning to wonder if the firewire capabilities of the Sony TVR17 is having some problem???

Any ideas of what to do next?

To anyone who has a solution,

I've been having the same problem as Terry and others: I've been having less than expected results capturing miniDV from my Sony TRV10 to avi's via the Fire Wire. I'm getting poor quality images including mozaic and blurry looking pictures despite what I try; I havn't even gotten to the point of trying to burn the video on CD. Yet, when I hook up and play the video directly off the tapes to the TV using the camcorder, they look fine. Makes me think their's something wrong with the firewire or the camcorder for that matter. I'm new to this bussiness of editing video on the PC, I started out very enthusiastic but am now very frustrated and confused. It seems like I will never be able to get my home videos on CD.
Does anyone know what the problem is, I've tried all possible, looking on VCDHelp?
My PC: PIII 500MHz, 320MB, 20 GB 7200 HD

[Terry]

Source is home video captured directly to the dv tape through the camcorder. I have viewed bootlegged vcd's on my computer and my Sony standalone dvd player and they are theater quality. My captured avi through my firewire connection to my pent3/933 e/512mb ram, leaves alot to be desired. Again, I have burned that to vcd and svcd with no improvement in quality when played on the standalone. Once again, if I play the camcorder to the tv set, great picture. I am losing something from the camcorder to the harddrive when saved to avi. I have even tried to save directly to mpeg and that resulted in worse than avi files.

I have tried all of the software outthere and tried saving in all screen sizes. I can't figure out how to save in other than the microsoft codec. I really have my doubts if that is going to make a difference. I feel my motherboard or firewire card might be my problem.

[kitty]

Does your camcorder offer progressive scan recording (sometimes labelled "Sports Mode"? Try a small clip recorded in progressive scan and then transfer. You won't have interlace & see what kind of computer display you get.

Not all camcorders offer this. The Sony TRV-900 does & many higher end units.

[Malcom]

"Capturing" DV via firewire is really COPYING. You are not capturing anything. You are not encoding.

All your system is doing is transferring 1s and 0s from the miniDV tape to your hard disk drive. The "capture" software wraps this data in an AVI file format for convinience. It does not recompress or in any way alter the actual video data in any way, shape, or form.

So, Terry, on your hard disk is an EXACT mirror image of what is on your DV tape. Why are you having trouble playing it at the correct quality level is merely a playback issue.

If you are using media player, start playing your clip, then click File -> Properties -> Advanced. Choose Video Decoder, and make sure that it is set to high quality/full resolution.

Terry -- if you need a sanity check to make sure there is nothing wrong w/ your DV card or firewire cable (which there nearly can't be because error checking would catch it), do this:

"capture" a portion of your DV tape to the hard disk. Do not choose any recompression options or anything like that (some software allows this). No codecs come into play here... the video will be on your HD exactly as the hardware DV codec INSIDE your camcorder created it.

Then, use your video editing software and play the video right back out the firewire and onto a blank DV tape. Then go watch this on your TV like you always do, and see if the quality "loss" is there. It should not be.

DV is a digital format. There is no possibility for loss until you:

a) re-encode. This will happen if you modify the whole video in your software, such as when changing brightness or color. Also, if you change video formats (to MPEG, etc)

b) make edits. if you add transitions in your editing, or add titles, or otherwise make changes to the video other than simple cuts, the new modified portions (AND ONLY the modified portions) will lose a little quality because of generational recompression by whatever codec your PC has installed. VegasVideo, by SonicFoundry, does not have this problem due to a fabolous propeitary codec.

You will NOT lose quality if you don't change the video at all, and you will not lose quality if you cut out sections of video but otherwise leave it unchanged. DV is not like MPEG, each frame is totally independent of the next. You have the ability to rip out pieces of the video w/o having to touch any other parts of it.

I've done several home movie -> DVD transfers, and the quality of the DVD is entirely dependent on the MPEG2 encoding quality (bitrate, software, etc). Using DVD maximum video bitrate of 9800kb/s (no sound), the DVD video looks 99.999% identical to the miniDV footage.

Just in case I have not convinced you yet:
I've gone from miniDV to hard disk, back to miniDV, and back to hard disk and compared the binary data of the video from the first "capture" to the last, and it is identical.

Hope that helps. I would look for problems in your system. First check your video player software... or just do the tape -> hd -> tape test.

[Malcom]

Oh.. one more thing:

The reason some of you are having problems w/ video corruption (mosaic, etc) during "capture" but not during playback is that the camcorder has an error correction chip built into it. This chip is only used during playback, not during COPY via firewire.

Errors are typically caused by the tape media or dirty record heads in the camcorder.

You may not see the errors while playing the video out the camcorder, but they are there -- they are just (rather effectively) masked out by realtime error correction. The most common method of masking these errors out during playback is to drop the frame. You have that option in your software, although not as convinient as the camcorder's built-in system.

[Terry]

Thanks Malcom, this sounds like the most reasonable logic yet on this problem. I do not know how to capture from the Sony TRV17 any other way than into AVI format if that is what you mean. I have tried to save in mpeg format and that is worse. Again, my playback after caputre is both the computer screen and the tv set, both are poor quality. I will try your experment. Thanks....

In the mean time, I have purchased a high end Soyo motherboard and a 1.8 pent 4 chip to replace what I have. With one gig of memory and a new 7200/80gig hard drive (dedicated), I should narrow down the hardware possibility. Of course with the exception of the camcorder itself.

[Terry]

Malcom, what software gives you the option of dropping frames in capture? Also, how does one transfer video directly to the harddrive without passing through software and converting to an AVI file??

[Malcom]

Terry -

"Capturing" in AVI format via firewire from miniDV *IS* copying to the hard disk.

The AVI format is merely used as a convinient container for the raw dv data. A codec only comes into play when you try to play back the data, in which case typically the microsoft dv codec will decode the DV data and display it in media player. There is no encoding.

So.. you just "capture" to AVI. Then "Play to tape." Ulead VideoStudio, MediaStudio, and Sonic Foundry VegasVideo can all do this perfectly. I'm sure Adobe premiere can too, but I'd be too confused by their terrible interface. My best pick is VegasVideo.

None of this software has the option to drop frames built into it like your camera does. What you will need to do is manual editting around the bad parts, if your tape contains such. These are not "blurryness" or anything like that -- they are obvious errors on the tape, which normally looks like big patches of bright color, or mosaic-like display. If you see these in parts of your video, you will need to use the video editing software's trimmer to cut them out.

Whereas during playback, the camera decides you don't want to see those frames at all, after transfer to the hard disk your software lets you decide what to do with those frames. For example if you are zooming into part of the frame that is okay, it would be a shame to skip a frame when it doesn't interfere with what you are doing.

[Terry]

Thanks, that is what I thought was the case. I will transfer to hd via ulead 6.0 and then back to camcorder tape. I will then play to tv set to determine just what is happening. Thanks again for the help

[Rakham]

Terry, I and perhaps few others, have the identical problem as you have.
I record films outside, in the tropics, thus with beautiful sunlight, with a VX2000E Sony Digital Video Camera(almost $US 3000) and when I play it directly hoocked to the TV, I get quality picture as some National Geographic documents!
I have been fighting for two weeks now to get a decent VCR out of it. They are absolutely lousy! I have no DVD writer and player at home yet.
First I captured(copied) the tapes via a Firewire Hauppauge CD-Wizard on a PC Athlon 1800, 512DDR,40GB HDD, Yamaha R/W CD, MB MSI K7T266 Pro2 and Sound Blaster Live!(excellent setup for Flight Simulation enthousiasts).
I have not really started editing yet, just finished the scenery on the Ulead Video Studio6 and burned it through Ulead on a VCR. I play the CD in a Sony VCR player on a Sony TV set and OOOOOH! my bad hart!!!!So much money for a 20cents quality CD!
I read all the treads above and want to thanks all of you for your kind attention and patience in trying to help us the best you can.
Last night, I hooked back my SnazziIII card which I purchased when I only had
an analog camera. I captured the same tape as before through the Svideo cable, edited it through Ulead, burned it and again the same result. My best way to describe the pictures I see on the TV set, is like in the hot days, you see a kind of air vibrations going up from the soil at a certain distance. All the edges of any materials(poles,wires, trees etc etc seems to vibrate.
Tonight I will try to capture via Premiere6.
Terry please drop me a mail at rakham01@hotmail.com
Thanks again to all of you and we hope we shall solve this matter soon.
Rakham

[Malcom]

VCD does not have enough resolution or bitrate to produce reasonable quality video from camcorder footage.

You won't ever get good quality, no matter what, unless you change:

a) resolution -- by going to SVCD or DVD
b) bitrate - XVCD or XSVCD or DVD
c) shooting style - tripod mount, no handheld

Try the VCD variants and see if your VCD player supports them.. it would make a BIG difference. Obviously DVD-R is the way to go but $$$! :)

[Rakham]

Malcom,just two words because I have to go to work now!
c) tripod is indeed my choice since I have the Sony camera.
I am really considering to go for DVD W/R
But I also tried this this early morning:
My tapes have identical quality on the HDD since when I play the film with various softwares, I see no problem. But, within Ulead Video Studio6, when I click Finish, and then create a VCR, at the same time it starts rendering, the middle screen starts to show those vibrations and image distortions. Here somewhere must be the problem
I will also try what you say about VCR setups.
Thanks again
Rakham

[mrbass]

I think DV footage is Bottom field first (Field B). I still get the grainy effect though. Setting it to field b at least solved the jerkiness of motion scenes though.

If you wish to change between codecs...here's my notes on that

DV Codecs
If you wish to change between the various DV codecs. Huffyuv 2.1.1and Microsoft (DV Encoder Video Encoder)


You can't have all DV codecs installed simutaneously. Huffyuv, MS DV Video Encoder can be installed with others though. It's possible have registry entries like dvs1, dvs2, dvs3 but it won't give you the option to chose type 1 or type2 unless only one of these entries is installed for the .dvsd registry entry. Below is the registry entry you need to change. Just save each one as suggested and double-click it and reboot to change which one you wish to use.

;Sony DV software CODEC save as dvsony.reg
Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Drivers32]
"VIDC.dvsd"="sonydv.dll"

;Adaptec "DVSoft (TM)" save as dvadaptec.reg
Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Drivers32]
"VIDC.dvsd"="dvc.dll"

;Mainconcept DV Codec 2.0.4 save as dvmainconcept.reg
Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Drivers32]
"VIDC.dvsd"="mcdvd_32.dll"

[Terry]

Thanks for the codec suggestion, I will try that this weekend.

Malcom, I did what you suggested and transferred to avi and back to the camcorder and it did play on the tv at the same quality as the original tape.

Upon careful scrutiny of the original, I have noticed quality is not dvd. I am using a TRV17 and am wondering if the tape I am using is maybe not the best quality?

My concern now is that when I burn to mpeg1 or 2 and playback on the dvd player, I get really terrible quality. I will revisit all of your suggestions and go from there.

I downloaded Virtualdub and the source and auxilliary codes that accompany. There is no clear instructions on how to load the codes into the body of Virtualdub. I am sure I have them in the wrong folder as when I went to transfer to hard drive, I received an error message that proper driver or something was not right, (not at home to duplicate). Any ideas on that??

[Malcom]

Terry -- I'm glad your initial test came out well. That means your camcorder is working fine, and so is your firewire adapter and computer.

miniDV is not DVD quality. But, it is pretty close. It is 720x480, same resolution as DVD. The problem comes from miniDV's lower color fidelity of 4:1:1 as opposed to DVD's 4:2:2. There is nothing you can do about it other than not use a miniDV camcorder. All the analog formats are worse. The only thing better would be a D1 or digital beta camcorder.

Also, please consider when going to DVD the following differences between your material and hollywood DVDs:

1) Your material is likely handheld. This causes whole frame movements that do not compress well. Hollywood material has a very stable overall frame due to machines used in filming.

2) Hollywood uses film. Film is non-interlaced, 24 frames per second, and produces a better "look" than video. Non-interlaced, 24 fps video-from-film compresses better than interlaced 29.97 fps video-from-video.

3) miniDV is already lossy-compressed at 35Mb/sec. This is much higher than DVD's 9Mb/s limit, but does cause more artifacts to show up after the MPEG compression than you see on Hollywood from-film transfers.

4) Hollywood makes sure that every scene is perfectly lit, and their film cameras have extremely good picture and light sensitivity. Your footage is unlikely to be as carefully crafted.

On top of those differences, there are differences in the actual DVD production process.
1) Hollywood uses hard encoders with exceptional quality.

2) Hollywood employs Compressionists who spend weeks going over every scene and adjusting advanced MPEG2 compression parameters to optimize quality.

3) Hollywood DVDs have about twice the space and can thus use a higher average bitrate.

To maximize your miniDV -> DVD transfers (from my experience):

1) Light every scene as much as possible during shooting. This is important. If you are shooting outside in daylight, the sun has taken care of this for you already.

2) If you are going to be doing many changes to the video (such as color adjustment or brigthness, or lots of overlays), use SonicFoundry VegasVideo. It maintains original quality on rendered footage.

3) Do not save to MPEG with most editors. Most of them have terrible MPEG2 encoders. Save in DV or HuffYUV. VegasVideo is the exception here as it has a respectable MPEG2 encoder built-in.

4) Use CinemaCraft Encoder SP if you can afford it. TMPEGENC is okay for the money (free!), but CCE is the runaway quality leader. For DV, I recommend 3 or 4 pass VBR with min=500, avg=6000, max=9300 if you are using AC3 audio or 8000 max if you are using PCM audio. Read "Getting the most out of CCE" on doom9.org for more info.

Good luck... it took me months to really get all this down. I hope by passing along a little of the information I learned, I can save you some of that time and effort!

[Terry]

Malcom, thanks alot for passing this information on. I get involved in what starts out to be little projects and they turn into major ordeals. I am considered a perfectionist and that doesn't help the situation.

I start out to buy a vw and end up with a Rolls Royce. I just can't stand not getting the best out of what I am working with. I will then make the decision on what to do when I reach that point.

Again, thanks for the tip and the test. I am now conviced that everything from the camcorder to the computer and back is working correctly. From there I can start working on the next step. I will go back and follow your reccomendations forward.

We have company for the weekend and I don't think they would appreciate me sitting in front of the computer so I will tackle this next week. If you don't mind, I will let you know where I am with it....

[Malcom]

Terry -- great.. good luck.

I get an e-mail notification when this thread changes, so if you have other questions just post them here.

If I can help, I will reply. If I can't help, there's always the others reading this thread! :)