50p/60p - any point?

[akkers]

I have shot some 50p footage. It looks great on my PC and Sony TV but playing it on any other TV is a pain. The footage is jittery/stuttery and is not worth watching (even with motion smoothing on). Trying to convert to 50i produces not much better results. Of course if you have to give out footage to customers and they play it on a regular TV it will look horrible. Making a DVD out of it produces poor results.

So what is the point? Why not stick with good old interlaced settings (50i/60i) and get rock-solid footage.

[Ennio]

With any other tv you mean older tv's? And how do you play the files? With a mediaplayer or via attached USB drive?

Video output settings in a mediaplayer can cause issues. USB transfer speed also.

[Sharc]

It depends on the specification of the TV and on the resolution and framerate and bitrate (average, peak) of the source.
With 1920x1080i25/i30 or 1280x720p50/p60 sources and average bitrates below 10Mbps you should be on the safe side even with older 'HD' TV sets.

And there is nothing wrong with interlaced sources as TV deinterlacers/bobbers are darn good these days.

[sophisticles]

I would always shoot in the highest quality mode the camera supports, create a master for archiving and then author different versions for different target devices.

[akkers]

I tend to play the footage on the TV from a USB stick.
I have a 4 year old 55" Sony LCD TV which plays 50p really good. However, my other TV (LG 47" from 2011) really struggles and displays unacceptable level of stutter.

Yes I would like to shoot at higher quality/rate and author different versions. But how do I ship footage on USB and DVD to ensure it plays well on most LCD TVs without stutter and with smooth motion.

[poisondeathray]

You have no control over how they view it - If they have 20 year old TV, or a new one that plays everything

If you want some control over how they play it - you need a standardized format such as DVD, or BD (or UHD BD)

The other option is web delivery, streaming, but if they have slow hardware - it can pose problems too

I have shot some 50p footage. It looks great on my PC and Sony TV but playing it on any other TV is a pain. The footage is jittery/stuttery and is not worth watching (even with motion smoothing on). Trying to convert to 50i produces not much better results. Of course if you have to give out footage to customers and they play it on a regular TV it will look horrible. Making a DVD out of it produces poor results.

So what is the point? Why not stick with good old interlaced settings (50i/60i) and get rock-solid footage.

Why would shooting 60i/50i be any different than converting from 60p/50p ? 50p converted to 50i should be "just as bad" as "rock solid" 50i in the first place . The problem is that TV. At least with 50p you have other options , higher quality to begin with.

If you deliver on USB, make sure you adhere to restrictions and minimum levels such L4.1 for AVC, VBV restrictions . Most "smart" TV's in the last 8-10 years that can play AVC can play that . But if you deliver with "illegal" bitrates and settings, your risk playback problems

[akkers]

So my question now - if someone also requires a DVD; how do I convert that 50p footage to MPEG2 format so that it looks smooth and does not stutter?

[poisondeathray]

So my question now - if someone also requires a DVD; how do I convert that 50p footage to MPEG2 format so that it looks smooth and does not stutter?

If you mean DVD-Video, compatible with a standard DVD player, your only option is 25i (50 fields per second interlaced)

[Sharc]

So my question now - if someone also requires a DVD; how do I convert that 50p footage to MPEG2 format so that it looks smooth and does not stutter?

If you mean a DVD disc use a tool like AVStoDVD. It will take care of producing a DVD compliant encode (compliant video and audio format) and DVD file structure, including a menu, ready for burning to a disc.

[poisondeathray]

BTW , L4.1 is probably why that older LG TV stutters. 1080p50 / 1080p60 is L4.2 . L4.1 vs. L4.2 is a major cutoff point for HW decoders. Original BD was restricted to L4.1 too.

[johns0]

If you have 50fps that plays horribly on another tv re-encode to 25 fps progressive,i bet it will play good on that tv.

[jagabo]

If your 1080p50 source is film based (ie, only 25 different frames per second) reencode it at 1080p25. If it's video based (50 different frames per second) reencode it at 720p50.

[Ennio]

If your 1080p50 source is film based (ie, only 25 different frames per second) reencode it at 1080p25. If it's video based (50 different frames per second) reencode it at 720p50.

Trying to understand this advice, jagabo.

Is it because if it's film-based, the frames are/can be doubled and
if it's video-based, there would be actual 50 different frames?

[jagabo]

If your 1080p50 source is film based (ie, only 25 different frames per second) reencode it at 1080p25. If it's video based (50 different frames per second) reencode it at 720p50.

Trying to understand this advice, jagabo.

Is it because if it's film-based, the frames are/can be doubled and
if it's video-based, there would be actual 50 different frames?

Yes. Of course, there are many ways film gets to video (or even video to video) so you should ways check your video and handle it appropriately. But that discussion is to complex to answer in a short post.

[akkers]

Thanks guys. I am not shooting film, only video on a Sony A7R iii at 50p. My problem is that if I have to produce a DVD also then I have to re-encode to 50i which means frames are dropped and stuuter occurs in the resulting mpeg file.

I want a quality method to transform that 50p footage to DVD compliant mpeg which plays smoothly and does not stutter or flicker.

[poisondeathray]

Thanks guys. I am not shooting film, only video on a Sony A7R iii at 50p. My problem is that if I have to produce a DVD also then I have to re-encode to 50i which means frames are dropped and stuuter occurs in the resulting mpeg file.

I want a quality method to transform that 50p footage to DVD compliant mpeg which plays smoothly and does not stutter or flicker.

No stutter; it's the same smoothness. "25i" (or 50i if you want to call it, same thing) , is double rate deinterlaced to 50p on a modern flat panel.

But it could flicker, if it's not resized properly. HD has too much detail - and interlace doesn't do very well with fine details and horizontal lines. Sometimes you have to lowpass it or apply slight vertical blur before interlacing it

Which editor are you using ?

[akkers]

Iam using Premiere Pro.

[Ennio]

I think from what I seem to remember, if you want to encode with x264, you'll need a plugin or frameserver

[poisondeathray]

Iam using Premiere Pro.

You can just export it , or use adobe media encoder using the PAL DVD preset

But you have to do some tests , or have some previous experience , to decide whether or not, or how much to lowpass or not

If your details are too sharp , it's going to flicker on most displays . So one way would be to apply a slight vertical blur before exporting

But if your footage is "soft" to begin with, it makes no sense to blur it more .

[Bencuri]

I have shot some 50p footage. It looks great on my PC and Sony TV but playing it on any other TV is a pain. The footage is jittery/stuttery and is not worth watching (even with motion smoothing on). Trying to convert to 50i produces not much better results. Of course if you have to give out footage to customers and they play it on a regular TV it will look horrible. Making a DVD out of it produces poor results.

So what is the point? Why not stick with good old interlaced settings (50i/60i) and get rock-solid footage.

I had several camcorders, both 50-60p, 50-60i, 30-25p, 50p should be extra smooth compared to interlaced. If there is playback problem, it is rather an 50p incompatibility issue than 50p being not smooth. 50p is old but even nowdays can be a challenge to certain systems. Downgrade it to 25i if you want to go for that ultimate smoothness, that is a format that should be smooth on all systems.

However you are in trouble if the 50p video is actually 25p doubled. I am not sure you can make that smooth yourself making it 25i. Because one half of the information is missing.

One thing is sure, making it 25p won't help making it smoother.

Some TV's can display the usually shuttering 25p to look like 50p. Maybe this is what is happening in your case. Your TV plays it fine, but your friend's TV cannot do that, and reveals the true look of the video.

At first place you should examine your files whether they are 25p doubled or true 50p, and ask the experts here how to make them smooth interlaced, if it is possible.

And if it is possible converting your footage to smooth 25i, you can leave it at 1920x1080. Simply because every system that can play FullHD will play your 25i files smooth. The issue here is not whether it is FullHD or DVD, but the framerate.

It would also be worth checking your friend's system, too, in case your files are true 50p. Maybe the framerate is set incorrectly and that's why it displays 50p horribly. In that case it is a setting and not hardware issue. TVs usually get stuck on playing if they are struggling with 50p, and not start shuttering. If there is shutter, I assume your files are not true 50p. But I may not be right on this...

Anyway, all in all, if you make it FullHD25i, it is a kind of control over the vierwers, because that is a format that all FullHD capable systems can play smoothly.

Sicking to 50p is also not a problem, if the file is true 50p, but you have to consider some devices will struggle.

[akkers]

Thanks guys. Actually I output it in HD 25 interlaced (it knocked it down to 1447x884). But this also stutteres on the LG tv.

So the LG has problem, cannot play smooth with 50p or 25i (50i). Is it down to the fact that the tv may not have high enough refresh rate?

If we convert 50p to 25i , dont we lose lines as half of the info is discarded?

[davexnet]

I have an LG TV. Can you post a sample of a file your having problems with ?

[johns0]

If the files are progressive don't encode as interlaced,encode to 25 fps progressive.

[_Al_]

Thanks guys. Actually I output it in HD 25 interlaced (it knocked it down to 1447x884). But this also stutteres on the LG tv.

So the LG has problem, cannot play smooth with 50p or 25i (50i). Is it down to the fact that the tv may not have high enough refresh rate?

If we convert 50p to 25i , dont we lose lines as half of the info is discarded?

Yes. I'd stay with regular resolutions. 1920x1080 or 1280x720. btw do not use odd number for video resolution. I think this is trying to fix something you should not have. Making videos interlaced is just bad solution even with HD resolution because of artifacts, you'd need vertical blur a bit

1. Encode 1920x1080p50 , easy settings, something BD like + fast decode + medium and try to cheat with levels, setting it to 4.1 instead of 4.2
--preset medium --fastdecode --bluray-compat --vbv-maxrate 30000 --vbv-bufsize 30000 --level 4.1 --keyint 25 --open-gop --slices 4 --colorprim "bt709" --transfer "bt709" --colormatrix "bt709" --sar 1:1
, but for that you need that Voukoder plugin to encode with x264
1 alternative, same as above using Premiere 50p

2. encode 1280x720p50 same as above x264 settings
same x264 settings as above, you can use --keyint 50
2 alternative, again or using Premiere 1280x720p50 but you do not have much controls for settings

3. You can try that 25 progressive, but that will look bad, I would not spread something like that intentionally, because someone might have a playback problem.

if still you have problem, then it is TV problem, problem on user side, that 1280x720p50 should be playable by nowadays BD player anyway,

if you make a DVD , customer would think that you made a cr** anyway. It is going to turn against you.

[akkers]

Just done some digging. The other tv is LG 47LW550T 100Hz LED panel. However, I have my doubts that it is true 100Hz.

If I just throw a plain 50p footage at it (through USB) it stutters big time when it comes to motion. If I turn on Truemotion to High there is a difference but there is still a bit of stutter.

[_Al_]

50p footage is pretty wide statement, because of resolution and also settings that encoded that 50p footage. That might have some role in TV handling it or not, or it does not matter , of course, that's possible too. Did you try those settings for low latency (easy playback) and 1280x720 resolution?

[poisondeathray]

1080p50 definitely won't be supported from USB playback on a TV from 2011.

The manual says it supports divx+hd . So if you encode 720p50 in that configuration it should play smoothly .
https://manualsbrain.com/en/manuals/828813

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DivX_Plus_HD
DivX Plus HD Profile
Max. resolution 1920×1080×30, 1280×720×60

L4.0 with vbv restrictions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DivX_Plus_HD#x264_compatibility

x264 --vbv-maxrate=20000 --vbv-bufsize=25000 --level 40 --bframes 3 --keyint <4*FPS> -o <output file> <input file>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DivX_Plus_HD#x264_compatibility

[Bencuri]

If that is the TV preference indeed, then it is no wonder that the TV is struggling with the 50p file.

Though it still leaves the question open in what format to distribute to make sure it doesn't happen to others to whom you give the video files to. As some mentioned before, the safest way is to downgrade to 1280x720 at 50p, because all HDTVs can handle that, or you convert it to FullHD 50i. Personally I found that Full HD 50i gives sharper images than in case I downgrade it to HD 50p. But this is sublective I think.

However, this makes me want to know: is it possible to convert 50p to 50i at fine quality at all? Considering you have both frames for creating the half frames, it should be possible, isn't it? I would like to upgrade my camcorder to 50p, too, but only in case this is possible, because I wouldn't like to distribute in 50p, but would like to store files in that format.

[jagabo]

If that is the TV preference indeed, then it is no wonder that the TV is struggling with the 50p file.

It's not a preference, it's a limitation of that TV. Newer/better TVs will not have that limitation. Older TVs may be limited to 576p25. And of course, really old TVs can't play any media files -- the will require an external media player.

Though it still leaves the question open in what format to distribute to make sure it doesn't happen to others to whom you give the video files to. As some mentioned before, the safest way is to downgrade to 1280x720 at 50p, because all HDTVs can handle that, or you convert it to FullHD 50i.

Not all TVs can handle 720p50 or 1080i25. But support for those is wider than for 1080p50. About the only way you can get near universal playback is to convert to DVD (576i25) or Blu-ray (720p50 or 1080i25). Then anyone with a DVD or Blu-ray player will be able to play the video.

Personally I found that Full HD 50i gives sharper images than in case I downgrade it to HD 50p. But this is sublective I think.

It's not subjective. It's mostly objective. 1920x1080 is more pixels and a sharper image than 1280x720 when both are displayed at the same size (ie, full screen on a 1080p TV). There's a little wiggle room here because the 1080i is only 540 lines per field. But most deinterlacers will use the full 1080 lines in portions of the frame that aren't moving and only deinterlace moving parts. The reduced vertical resolution in those moving parts is less noticeable since they are moving.

However, this makes me want to know: is it possible to convert 50p to 50i at fine quality at all? Considering you have both frames for creating the half frames, it should be possible, isn't it?

Of course you can convert 1080p50 to 1080i25. Hasn't that been discussed in this thread already?

[Bencuri]

I am just interested if the 50p-50i conversion can be done at good quality, as if the footage was recorded in 50i originally, I didn't notice you had already come to a conclusion on this before, but then I will re-read the posts.

On the other hand, there is one more option regarding distribution that might work, but I am not sure of the outcome. A while ago it came to my mind that in case I would record in FullHD 50p, I could keep that format as an option besides distributing in 50i, simply by distributing the 50p version on video Blu-Ray disc only. Because theoretically it will only be played by the user in case the player is 50p compatibile (and I guess all Blu-ray players are like that anyway), so it is a kind of control over the user. However the question arises: what happens in case the TV is not 50p compatibile at the same time? Maybe shuttering or other problems will appear, or the player will automatically convert the signal to 50i in that case? So I am just interested whether the BD FullHD 50p solution is a true guarantee for problemless playback of the video in case the format is supported by the player?