NLE to fill the hole in timeline?!?

[marcorocchini]

Hi but please respect for cats

they want me to force me for a change of NLE but is evident that no one else measure up of S**** R****

however I try to do a simple operation of "fill the hole" when 2 clip are placed in timeline and another clip need to only fill the hole WITHOUT MOVE the placed clips in timeline as this video-example:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l2pbphksb7g5khu/fillHole.mp4?dl=0

there are present C0002 and C0018, between this 2 clip there are nothing. I need to "insert" another clip that simply fill the hole by the duration present in timeline, without move all other clip.

How is possible this in Avid, Edius, Premiere or other?!? thanks

[poisondeathray]

Most other editors don't have this, a 2nd edit track is generally used .

[marcorocchini]

Most other editors don't have this, a 2nd edit track is generally used .

this means that this is not possible in Avid media composer, premiere or edius?

[johnmeyer]

As poisondeathray says, in most NLEs you simply leave the video on the track below, and it does the same thing. It may not be what you are used to, but it is actually a much better way to edit because you can still see the head & tail of the video on the track below.

[Cornucopia]

This is known as a simple "Insert" edit, and is easily doable in ANY and EVERY one of the good NLEs that I've mentioned previously.

In fact insert editing has been fundamental to video editing since the late 70s. I won't give you steps as it is part of every manual or tutorial you would get regarding these NLEs (and I can confirm it for MC, Premiere & Vegas, and FCP). Though it's helpful, no 2nd track is needed. (Note: with the advent of computer based nondestructive NLEs, some would differentiate insert - adding time/slipping, from overwrite - not adding time. I come from old school and do not).

Considering how long you seem to have been doing this, you ought to know this hands down by now. Including the terminology.

Scott

[marcorocchini]

As poisondeathray says, in most NLEs you simply leave the video on the track below, and it does the same thing.

this means that most editor don't include exactly this "action"? The same thing? But in the basic editing this action is repeated tens and hundreds of times. For example in Edius, it does not seem to me that it is possible in any way to "fill the hole" without ruining the next track:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rdbni2gssku647u/edius.mp4?dl=0

in this video C0086 is moved forward, thus also moving all the the eventual clips that are ahead! if you are carefull happens that all the composition is moved forward or overwritten

It may not be what you are used to, but it is actually a much better way to edit because you can still see the head & tail of the video on the track below.

yes maybe you get used to it, but if each time the clip has to be calibrated on the free space present "in the hole" you will lose time (not to mention the risk of moving the clips in front and the whole composition)

"you can still see the head & tail of the video on the track below" exactly I cannot understand however also in my NLE I can see and re-trim in and out point (but in the "hole" the outpoint is depending from the duration of the hole) even after placing the clip on the timeline

https://www.dropbox.com/s/58vp6oaavqkocmu/sr2.mp4?dl=0

the thing I can't understand is if indeed there are no NLE's that is able to handle this "hole filling action" in the same way

[abolibibelot]

In your head there are holes that would need to be filled
So that over time you'd become a bit more skilled
And be able to guess by instinct where it's at...
But hey what do you know? you're just a stupid cat!

[poisondeathray]

You can do an insert edit that is similar, but destination has to be marked in /out + (in Adobe it's called slip tool) to change the timing. Not sure what it' s called in Edius , but it should be similar. You have to mark the gap . The difference in SR is he just drags it without marking and it snaps automatically. I don't know of any editor that does that. An unmarked insert edit will usually push later clips forward

I usually don't edit with gaps or in this style, but I find 2 tracks faster, because you don't have to mark in/out . If you want to edit with 2 tracks , the main track is track 2. The gap filler is track 1. You just leave it on the other track, you don't merge it. On the other hand, if your source clips are long, or you have frequent gaps - they might "bump" into each other, then you might have to trim them down. That would make the other method preferrable

[johnmeyer]

In your head there are holes that would need to be filled
So that over time you'd become a bit more skilled
And be able to guess by instinct where it's at...
But hey what do you know? you're just a stupid cat!

Yes indeed. Nicely put.

[marcorocchini]

In your head there are holes that would need to be filled
So that over time you'd become a bit more skilled
And be able to guess by instinct where it's at...
But hey what do you know? you're just a stupid cat!

[Attachment 50357 - Click to enlarge]

if it was for me every all NLE should be designed for stupid cats and not become a trap

[marcorocchini]

You can do an insert edit that is similar, but destination has to be marked in /out + (in Adobe it's called slip tool) to change the timing. Not sure what it' s called in Edius , but it should be similar. You have to mark the gap . The difference in SR is he just drags it without marking and it snaps automatically. I don't know of any editor that does that. An unmarked insert edit will usually push later clips forward

I usually don't edit with gaps or in this style, but I find 2 tracks faster, because you don't have to mark in/out . If you want to edit with 2 tracks , the main track is track 2. The gap filler is track 1. You just leave it on the other track, you don't merge it. On the other hand, if your source clips are long, or you have frequent gaps - they might "bump" into each other, then you might have to trim them down. That would make the other method preferrable

in Edius i cannot find any similar tool or "mode" to work without overwrite or forward-move ( oh my *A*!) the clip that is "dominated" by the insertion attempt.
Need to consider something that is especially true for news editing: on average, the footage consists of clips whose in and out points are roughly near the beginning and end to the end of the original clips. When you drag & drop a clip in the timeline in 95% of the cases a trim is needed that is roughly near the beginning of the original clip. The drag & drop and cut actions is repeated at least 100/200 or 500 times and over and the "automatic" forward movement of all the clips present in the video track ( oh my C*T ) of the clip already present in the timeline (or its overwriting) is 95% counterproductive. Perhaps for this reason the poor SR was designed to avoid the absurd redundancies.

Exactly I dont'have idea how to work in other NLE but in 95% of the cases in a news report the maximum duration of a single clip that can be broadcast is 3 or 5 seconds max ( and usually the part that is selected constitutes the main portion of the entire clip).

In the example I put below at the beginning of the composition the edited part: after 2 minutes and 30 seconds all the single clips (all the footage) in sequence. Only one video clip have a duration of 23 minutes, the interview about 10 minutes, every single image clip have maximum duration of 20 seconds.
A person interviewed at most appears on the screen for no more than 7/10 seconds.
Considering these proportions and the very high number of cuts presents in timeline and above all the need to not mount similar plans in sequence, a style of work that - each time - shifts the clip already present in the timeline forwards would be a terrible disaster: yes ok, I will definitely be in error but I don't see any other way to work out of this except to waste time on continuous and redundant trim clips, continuous loss of time to trim in and out the source clips, calibration actions within the enormous risk of slipping the next clip presente in timeline! (oh my ***).

Only apart there is the case of the very long clip that needs to continuously zoom in the timeline for the precise search of the in (and eventually out point)
in this case the trim of the clip of (for example) 23 minutes is not possible in the space of timeline of 20 seconds so it's necessary goto in the "stretch" footage to search the exact point of in and out: I don't know how to make the edius or avid editors but probably also they have all the footage "stretched" in another point of the timeline and copy only a little portion (for example 5 seconds) to then paste it in the real composition interval

In my example video (clips on the lower tracks take priority: is an exclusive option for cats-only and please don't mind the low preview quality due to a conflict with bandicam recording) I try do compare the short clips (10/20 seconds) to the long clip (23 minutes) but the entire assembly is based on the need to hold the "next" clip absolutly still in timeline by default with no-need of specifics actions each time, in this case the "next clip jet present in timeline" is even used as a "mechanical stop" for the trim of the previous clip.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/99omz215eshlc7h/sr6.mp4?dl=0

in this example I show the placing an item while not moving clips forward in timeline: is exactly this the style of work I need.
How is fast to fitting a clip to fill a gap on the timeline. But this "gap" are not so rigidly predetermined. These are sometimes natural during editing: they are usually rare and not wanted at the beginning of editing. And in any case, the possibility of moving the entire assembly from a certain point onwards does alwais exist: but this option is never the norm (then I need to press and keep pressed the ALT+R key) it is always the exception by default:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/okd6clfm03k02q5/sr7.mp4?dl=0

Stay in the default (Non-Ripple) mode to prevent unwanted clip movement on the timeline, and unless you are specifically moving other clips on the timeline.
When the timeline is in "Ripple" mode, the clip and all clips to the right of the inserted clip move to the right. This lengthens the project time.
When the timeline is in "Non-Ripple" mode, the clip to the right of the insert moves down a track to accommodate the clip. This keeps project length the same.
In Edius and Premiere I cannot find the same behavior in "ripple" mode, not shure what happens in avid or others but seems not this style.

I am not familiar with the NLE's, but I am surprised by the fact that this style all aimed at maximum editing speed (old of 20 years) does not seem to be included in any of them, even at the option level only.

[poisondeathray]

Yes, I understand what you want - you have set clip positions and gaps.

You can auto fit and fill gaps in Premiere - But it's a few more clicks that you will probably complain about. It looks like SR can do it from anywhere, unmarked

click the gap
push "/" to mark selection
select insert clip to fill, push "."

It should be the same in Edius, but maybe different hotkeys


It doesn't look like SR has a "slide" tool ? What if on the same track, you want to keep 3 adjacent clips position/length, but the middle clip you want to change the timing? ie. not left aligned to the start . What if you wanted it right aligned near the end ?

[aedipuss]

about the dumbest editing question i ever heard. how is the software supposed to know what to do with the inserted clip? if it's too long does it cut off the beginning or end? compress it's time and speed it up? if it's too long does it stretch it and slow it down?

[johnmeyer]

You post a clip of over eight minutes duration, most of which is just you scrubbing back and forth on the timeline. It shows absolutely nothing (to me) about what feature you are looking for that is really important. Poisondeathray says he knows what you want to do, and if he is right that you want to insert a clip that is longer than an existing gap on the timeline and have the NLE trim both ends of the clip when you insert it, then I know how to do that. However, I don't know how to tell a "cat" how to do that, and you probably wouldn't want to use my NLE (Vegas).

If you want more help, you might consider posting a 10-15 second clip that shows just the operation you are trying to duplicate in some other NLE, rather than all the thrashing about on the timeline.

[abolibibelot]

Too long doesn't even begin to describe it
Lots of people have things to do during the day
Dude you should consider summing up a lil' bit
Really you can compress what you intend to say

Try haikus next time...

A person interviewed at most appears on the screen for no more than 7/10 seconds.

Wrong — 14 seconds here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzNhaLUT520
But sometimes it's much shorter...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJIydD7ULz8

[Cornucopia]

Gave you suggestions & pointers. You didn't put in any effort at all (took me <30 sec to find plenty tutorial clips & manuals). Now you want more hand-holding. Hahaha!

Scott

[marcorocchini]

You post a clip of over eight minutes duration, most of which is just you scrubbing back and forth on the timeline. It shows absolutely nothing (to me) about what feature you are looking for that is really important. .

my post question is slightly misplaced: I don't need to roughly "fill a hole". I wonder: does exist a NLE that not moving clips forward in timeline (or overwrite) when placing item one inside the other like this?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yyg4x3cl33g1so0/sr8.mp4?dl=0

If you see the video C0020 it is never moved or overwritten by insertion in drag and drop of C0016: is exactly this that I need.

Do VEGAS do this?

I don't know how to tell a "cat" how to do that

I'm a real cat, not only a "cat"
[Attachment 50369 - Click to enlarge]

[poisondeathray]

If the insert is shorter than the gap, such as in your video, you can do the similar thing with "snapping" enabled . Every editor has "snapping". Snapping respects clip boundaries; so you can drag clip and it will align to the next. Then you can adjust the in point by dragging.

But if insert clip is longer than the gap, then it's the other procedure with marking to fit the gap. Then you can adjust and drag the in point , or retime with slip tool.

It's slightly different that what you are showing - In your video , SR seems to enable placement by where the playhead is placed, and automatically trims the inpoint when you let go. Basically trimming inpoint as you go before placing and letting go.

But you're doing it "blindly" - the preview is disactivated in SR when you are doing this - you're not looking at the content, only judging by clip length on the timeline. Normally, the source monitor is used in combination with the program monitor, so you can "see" what you're doing. It's a different style of editing. You're spending more time editing on the timeline in SR instead of the program monitor. In PP more time is generally spent with the source monitor

[marcorocchini]

But you're doing it "blindly" - the preview is disactivated in SR when you are doing this - you're not looking at the content, only judging by clip length on the timeline

maybe I have activated the preview but for me is not so important: the clip is adjusted in timeline. However maybe you mean to do this

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ee550ors9jsnia/sr9.mp4?dl=0

a clip can be pre-trimmed in the item floater where I can trim the clip so when it have to be drag in timeline is already cutted to in and out but this fact, for me, is useful only for clip that are long. For shortest clips I prefer trim directly in timeline: but to do this is necessary that the "next clip" already present in timeline it is not overwritten or moved by the clip that I intend to drag in timeline. The basic question is just that, for example in the video above, the so-called "next clip" already placed in timeline (c0110) acts as a mechanical stop, as a "bank" that aid the trim directly in timeline of C0024 without pre-trim the clip in the item-floater (if the clip is short.. in 99% of cases). The "next clip" - c0110 - it's never stepped on, overwritten or slipped forward (unless you enter the non-ordinary NON-Ripple mode) : if c0110 it is automatically moved forward as is the case (seems to me) of Edius it would create a mess in the timeline [moreover in edius it seems to me that it is not even possible to block the clips already presents in timeline. It is only possible to block tracks but not individual clips ] so this means that every single clip that you intend to place in timeline (like my C0024) must necessarily be pre-trimmed oh my c*t but this is an absurd waste of time if compared to the style of editing of SR

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xdk4smzlsn01n9k/ed11.mp4?dl=0

or only if you have enough space on the timeline and if the clip is equal or shorter than this available space then you can throw it down directly from the bin onto the timeline and trim it in-place but this situation almost never happens because the editing itself is the continuous filling of more or less empty spaces increasingly shorter between them.

The pre-trim in a separate section it is however a mandatory action for long clip, as in my exemple of SR (with the clip named "esterno_hd") in this case it's necessary to trim the clip in the item-floater and subsequently drag it in timeline at the desider point, or cut the clip in a separate zone of timeline, or in a second composition window (as far as i know also the edius users do too) and copy/paste those few seconds in the desired location and next re-trim in place to adjust the lenght.

Normally, the source monitor is used in combination with the program monitor, so you can "see" what you're doing. It's a different style of editing. You're spending more time editing on the timeline in SR instead of the program monitor. In PP more time is generally spent with the source monitor

ok, I don't know if the source preview is that https://www.dropbox.com/s/ep4d8k41l3dy3ox/sr10.mp4?dl=0

but the source previews takes away screen-spaces on the main program preview window... when editing in portable PCs the computer display is 15" or 17": too small to further reduce the program monitor, possibly I prefer only the program monitor but that's not why we commit suicide

The basic question is that semms no exist NLE that avoids the forward moving of the so called "next clip" clips and also in Edius it seems impossible to have workstyle or a "mode" similar to SR, oh my *A*

[poisondeathray]

so this means that every single clip that you intend to place in timeline (like my C0024) must necessarily be pre-trimmed

Yes, if it's longer than the gap (or if you use the "fit to gap" method above) . You have "snapping" enabled in edius . See last post. This stops when hit the next clip. Only if you "forcefully" push it past the next clip. The problem is if clip is longer than the gap, so precut it

For the short clips , shorter than the gap - they already align to the next if snapping is enabled. Let go of LMB, click the in point and drag to cut or extend

What it looks like you're missing - does SR have a "slide" tool? Clip positions are preserved on timeline , but the timing of clip content can be adjusted left or right.

but this is an absurd waste of time if compared to the style of editing of SR

Maybe, for the way you edit, but the other style is faster if you know how to use it with keyboard shortcuts - 99% of newsrooms use it. Learn it, or keep on using SR. Or hire "Magnum" to find the owner so you can buy the IP

You need to be faster in today's age. It's not the 90's anymore. TV and Sat broadcast "news" is already "old" news in internet age. Old cat can learn new tricks

[_Al_]

You seem to cut to the gaps , you don't care how frames look like? What if last frame is an awkward move or things are not right? Usually you do not want to cut ,for example a person just moves with head or hand etc.
Left hand is constantly on keybord switching to auto ripple on or off etc. That last frame is pretty important would not you say?

[johnmeyer]

You seem to cut to the gaps , you don't care how frames look like? What if last frame is an awkward move or things are not right? Usually you do not want to cut ,for example a person just moves with head or hand etc.
Left hand is constantly on keybord switching to auto ripple on or off etc. That last frame is pretty important would not you say?

In my NLE (Vegas) I can see both the head and the tail of the clip, once it is inserted into a gap. That way you avoid the problem Al describes. The picture below shows what it looks like when I am moving the video back and forth within the fixed event. Note that the display is showing a split screen with both the head and tail shown simultaneously (they are squished 50% so that you actually see then entire frame width of both the head & tail).

I have shown the event with space on either side (i.e., not fit exactly into a gap) simply to make it clearer which event I am working on.

[Cornucopia]

Anybody who does this alot knows the keyboard shortcuts for switching between slip and shuffle modes, ripple & non-ripple, trim, slide, etc, as well as markin/markout and transport controls (though I like to use a dedicated shuttle mouse for this so I can rock & roll it).
The better NLEs can change their layout dynamically based on workflow/mode.
Using these 2 features, there is no penalty either of time or of screen real estate, so no excuse for not using the various modes to their optimum capability.

Scott

[marcorocchini]

What it looks like you're missing - does SR have a "slide" tool? Clip positions are preserved on timeline , but the timing of clip content can be adjusted left or right.

no cat sorry, no slide tool in SR

[marcorocchini]

You seem to cut to the gaps , you don't care how frames look like? What if last frame is an awkward move or things are not right? Usually you do not want to cut ,for example a person just moves with head or hand etc.
Left hand is constantly on keybord switching to auto ripple on or off etc. That last frame is pretty important would not you say?

but yes that I care to in and out, I try to attach to example of style of working that I mean so that the clips that are present in timeline is not moved or overwrite by the hitting clip that come previous, and however in certain cases the clip (overall long clip need to be precut) but the short clip can be cut in timeline.
I use only the shortcut "ripple mode" ALT+R (keep pressing) to move entire blocks of edited. By press CTRL to keep locked the clip in timeline

As exaple I think this is the fastest and easy way like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s88phj62lezdk3a/sr12.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tdv4jl7jtldfsdx/sr22.mp4?dl=0