Betamax digitizing help of a rare film.

[LetThemEatCake]

Hello everybody, how are you? I need some serious help. I found on ebay a betamax tape of 1963's 'Cleopatra' with a running time of 3 hours and 10 minutes. You may or may not know but this running time was for the theatrical version released all over the world back in 1963 and has not been seen since, so this is extremely rare if this is in fact the version the tape contains. The tape is official and was manufactured in Australia. I gave it to a professional to have it digitized but he says the tape contains something that stops it from being copied, if it is copied all you get is static or the sound can't be heard. Does anyone know what I can do to have this digitized?

[johnmeyer]

Commercial movies were protected with something called "Macrovision" which weakened the sync signals on the tape so that, without special hardware to regenerate them, the video (and audio) would all but disappear during the copy operation, even though there was enough to provide a stable signal during normal playback (usually).

The picture didn't look like static, but instead looked "scrambled" with the picture occasionally looking normal for a few seconds, and then going back to a wavy pattern.

A long time ago you could buy Macrovision defeat hardware that would regenerate the timing pulses. These are doubtless still available on eBay. You might also be able to transfer it using the hardware you already have. The digitizing process skips the step of creating a new analog signal and in my experience often copies the tape without any problem. You won't know unless you try.

However, my question is: why bother ??

This IMDB entry for the 1963 version of Cleopatra says that the DVD version is 4 hours 11 minutes long which is a full hour longer than the tape you are talking about.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056937/

I'd get that and skip dealing with a lousy quality videotape. If you have Amazon Prime, you can just pay four bucks, get a bucket of popcorn and put on some Depends so you can sit through the whole thing, and start watching.

https://amazon.com/Cleopatra-Elizabeth-Taylor/dp/B000JJH7VC

[LetThemEatCake]

Commercial movies were protected with something called "Macrovision" which weakened the sync signals on the tape so that, without special hardware to regenerate them, the video (and audio) would all but disappear during the copy operation, even though there was enough to provide a stable signal during normal playback (usually).

The picture didn't look like static, but instead looked "scrambled" with the picture occasionally looking normal for a few seconds, and then going back to a wavy pattern.

A long time ago you could buy Macrovision defeat hardware that would regenerate the timing pulses. These are doubtless still available on eBay. You might also be able to transfer it using the hardware you already have. The digitizing process skips the step of creating a new analog signal and in my experience often copies the tape without any problem. You won't know unless you try.

However, my question is: why bother ??

This IMDB entry for the 1963 version of Cleopatra says that the DVD version is 4 hours 11 minutes long which is a full hour longer than the tape you are talking about.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056937/

I'd get that and skip dealing with a lousy quality videotape. If you have Amazon Prime, you can just pay four bucks, get a bucket of popcorn and put on some Depends so you can sit through the whole thing, and start watching.

https://amazon.com/Cleopatra-Elizabeth-Taylor/dp/B000JJH7VC

Thank you very much for your answer, I'll check what process the person used and try to look for Macrovision, any other suggestions?? I am a huge fan of the movie but the original original version was 5 hours long, the 4 hour version is very boring, in my opinion it suffers from having missing footage but maybe the 3 hour version works better as a film.

[LetThemEatCake]

If anyone knows which hardware is better for defeating macrovision on a hollywood film?

[DB83]

That 'professional' should have had the relevant equipment to transfer the tape. But most transfer companies will not handle commercial tapes even if it is only for your own use.

AFAIK a full-frame Time Base Corrector (TBC) should be able to ignore any macrovision signals.

BTW Where are you from ? Australia is a PAL country and even with a TBC you would also require a PAL vcr to play the tape. And Betamax vcrs are quite rare methinks

[LetThemEatCake]

That 'professional' should have had the relevant equipment to transfer the tape. But most transfer companies will not handle commercial tapes even if it is only for your own use.

AFAIK a full-frame Time Base Corrector (TBC) should be able to ignore any macrovision signals.

BTW Where are you from ? Australia is a PAL country and even with a TBC you would also require a PAL vcr to play the tape. And Betamax vcrs are quite rare methinks

Hello! I live in Panama in latin american, I know, a shithole country, it's not his fault, he's one of the only two people who do transfers. I asked him what he used and he said he used a video and audio capture computer. I don't think he has a vcr player, I'm sure an adapter of some kind? He also said he thought the tape was damaged because it wouldn't record any audio, but the tape looks in perfect condition and I still want to try, it may be the Macrovision or some other type of anti-piracy thing.

I hate to be picky but could you give me a step by step? Should I buy a betamax player? and if it is indeed a Macrovision type thing, what else should I buy?

[DB83]

First of all, if the person does not own, or have use of a vcr, he could not even play that tape.

Do also confirm that the tape is Betamax. Commercial tapes were indeed available but not as available as VHS. But if it is Betamax you would have to source a player from the UK or most of Western Europe (but not France)

Now take a look at this page

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=betamax&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m...order&_sacat=0

Personally, unless you are an avid collector, the cost of acquiring the player and shipping it - with all the inherent risks - is hardly cost-effective.

For the Time Base Corrector, which will also cost several hundred dollars/pounds read here:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/2251-tbc-time-base.html

[OldMan64]

Another thing, if you are going to purchase a VCR, the earlier version of the beta VCR cannot play the "Beta 3" tapes. I am speaking only as a consumer quality VCR. The broadcast quality machines, which would have been extremely expensive, may be able to handle that and probably would also have a built in TBC.
Someone that does this as a business should have that capability, however.

[johnmeyer]

Just to be sure we are on the same page, is this a consumer "Beta" tape, or is it a "Betacam" tape? I did a little research and wasn't able to find any indication of a 3-hour version of this movie, only the 4-hour versions. If indeed the only 3-hour version was the one used for broadcast, and since Betacam was a broadcast format, it might be that this is the professional version of "Beta" which is completely different from the consumer Beta tape which is what started the whole consumer video revolution in the late 1970s.

And following up on the other thing DB83 said, you still need to determine if it is PAL or NTSC format.

[DB83]

^^Really ?

My first vcr was a Betamax. If memory serves it was a Sony 450 - their first or second consumer model in the UK. Certainly AFAIK recorded to/played back 3 hour 15min tapes (L750)

[LetThemEatCake]

First of all, if the person does not own, or have use of a vcr, he could not even play that tape.

Do also confirm that the tape is Betamax. Commercial tapes were indeed available but not as available as VHS. But if it is Betamax you would have to source a player from the UK or most of Western Europe (but not France)

Now take a look at this page

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=betamax&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m...order&_sacat=0

Personally, unless you are an avid collector, the cost of acquiring the player and shipping it - with all the inherent risks - is hardly cost-effective.

For the Time Base Corrector, which will also cost several hundred dollars/pounds read here:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/2251-tbc-time-base.html

I am not an avid collector but Cleopatra is my favorite movie and this is a version that hasn't been seen since 1963. From what I understand, he didn't play the tape on a tv, apparently what he uses just automatically saves it on a computer? I gave him a vhs of Alfred Hitch****'s Vertigo, the version before any restoration and he was able to digitalize it without any problems. If I buy a betamax player and it plays, would it be able to be saved or there is still a chance of macrovision?? do you think the tape is damaged?

[LetThemEatCake]

Just to be sure we are on the same page, is this a consumer "Beta" tape, or is it a "Betacam" tape? I did a little research and wasn't able to find any indication of a 3-hour version of this movie, only the 4-hour versions. If indeed the only 3-hour version was the one used for broadcast, and since Betacam was a broadcast format, it might be that this is the professional version of "Beta" which is completely different from the consumer Beta tape which is what started the whole consumer video revolution in the late 1970s.

And following up on the other thing DB83 said, you still need to determine if it is PAL or NTSC format.

The 3 hour version was the theatrical release version of the movie, it is a beta tape yes, manufactured in Australia. I will take pictures and upload it to offer more help, my guess is that, this was not a tape done by 20th Century Fox but by a subsidiary of some kind, and they probably used the available 3 hour print they had laying around, there would be no other explanation.

[lingyi]

Is this it it? http://www.videocollector.co.uk/cleopatra/29651. Though the running time is stated to be 176mins, not 195min.

Have you actually seen the image quality of it? It's very likely cropped and the video quality fair at best being videotape. Plus the audio quality will be poor mono since this was before stereo and Beta Hi-Fi. I highly suggest viewing a snippet of it before putting any more time or money into the project.

Edit: If it's a Magnetic Home Video release, the quality of their releases were fair to good at best, even by videotape standards. No remastering, minimal to no cleanup of the original. However, they did release some videos that weren't available from anyone else.

[DB83]

The difference in timings could be due to PAL speed-up ?

The OP can not view the tape as he does not own a Betamax vcr

No one can say if the tape is damaged. Not all video releases had macrovision. But I still say it is not worth the expense of getting a Betamax player. My own died maybe 20+ years ago and I simply do not believe the fleabay claims of such legacy equipment being 'as new'

I also concur with lingyi about the visual display. Video tapes were often cropped. Even widescreen films would be either shown as full-screen or sometimes partially cropped with letter-boxing. These may not bother you if you really are desparate to see this version.

Johnmeyer, who has replied in this topic, does transfers but I suspect he can not do Betamax and PAL. One other member of the forum is lordsmurf. Maybe a private message to him for an opinion etc.

Other than that look at commercial transfer services in both the US and the UK - especially the UK. I already stated that they will probably refuse to do this for reasons of copyright etc. But there is no harm in asking.

[lingyi]

Just to be sure we are on the same page, is this a consumer "Beta" tape, or is it a "Betacam" tape? I did a little research and wasn't able to find any indication of a 3-hour version of this movie, only the 4-hour versions. If indeed the only 3-hour version was the one used for broadcast, and since Betacam was a broadcast format, it might be that this is the professional version of "Beta" which is completely different from the consumer Beta tape which is what started the whole consumer video revolution in the late 1970s.

And following up on the other thing DB83 said, you still need to determine if it is PAL or NTSC format.

The 3 hour version was the theatrical release version of the movie, it is a beta tape yes, manufactured in Australia. I will take pictures and upload it to offer more help, my guess is that, this was not a tape done by 20th Century Fox but by a subsidiary of some kind, and they probably used the available 3 hour print they had laying around, there would be no other explanation.

It's likely the TV version or may actually be a recording of a TV broadcast, especially since you say it's not an official release from 20th Century Fox. Though different different distributors are often used for non-U.S. releases. I remember renting it on Beta (NTSC) back in the 80's, but it was on two tapes because of the length. I don't remember if it was the Theatrical or restored version.

[DB83]

On a nostalgia mission I took a quick look at the various Beta machines being offered for sale at fleabay.

I think I found my own. Not a 450 (I was thinking of something else). The Sony was the C5 - I think I paid about £450 for it tho . It's big brother the C7 was about £750. Interesting to note that the seller on fleabay states although the tape he tested will 'play' there are issues.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-Betamax-SL-C5-VCR-Video-Recorder/264401232814?_trkparm...ccd3%7Ciid%3A1

[lingyi]

The OP can not view the tape as he does not own a Betamax vcr

The OP stated: "... if it is copied all you get is static or the sound can't be heard." so may he/she can ask for a snippet of the capture without sound.

Other than that look at commercial transfer services in both the US and the UK - especially the UK. I already stated that they will probably refuse to do this for reasons of copyright etc. But there is no harm in asking.

I agree that this is a major issue. No legitimate professional will transfer a copyrighted video and those who will do it are likely shady and offer poor quality.

A bit of trivia. The early forms of Macrovision were ignored by most Sony Betamax machines (I read that Sanyo and Toshiba machines had issues) and some later Betamax releases didn't even have Macrovision at all because of the licensing fees and fewer releases on Beta.

I won't speak to how I know this for certain in keeping with the forum rules!

[DB83]

I also took a look at a a few UK-based transfer services. One refuses to take copyrighted material and one must assume that the content is still in copyright.

However the following may be your solution:

http://www.kodakexpresscamden.com/Video-Betamax-to-DVD.html

My guess the 'to dvd' method is a direct cable between the vcr and a dvd-recorder. Could be an issue if the tape is macrovision protected.

They also offer 'editable computer files'. They claim that these are uncompressed but at 13 gb per hour they are probably dv.avi's

[lingyi]

For reference, this site has a listing of all the PAL Betamax(s): https://www.palsite.com/models.html.

Here's an Australian site about Betamax(s) http://www.betaheaven.com/

And this site sells refurbished machines, mostly NTSC, though there are few multi-system ones: http://mrbetamax.com/. His prices are high, but he would be the only one I would buy from if I were the market.

[LetThemEatCake]

Is this it it? http://www.videocollector.co.uk/cleopatra/29651. Though the running time is stated to be 176mins, not 195min.

Have you actually seen the image quality of it? It's very likely cropped and the video quality fair at best being videotape. Plus the audio quality will be poor mono since this was before stereo and Beta Hi-Fi. I highly suggest viewing a snippet of it before putting any more time or money into the project.

Edit: If it's a Magnetic Home Video release, the quality of their releases were fair to good at best, even by videotape standards. No remastering, minimal to no cleanup of the original. However, they did release some videos that weren't available from anyone else.

yes this is it

[lingyi]

Since it's from Magnetic Home Video, it may well be the TV broadcast version of the movie. They were the first to release the original Halloween on video and IIRC, it was the TV version.

Edit: As I recall, there were several disputes about Magnetic Home Video's releases, including Halloween, which was officially released by, I think Warner Home Video. Anyway, MHV got around the disputes by stating that their releases were different cuts from the official releases.

Edit 2: According to IMDB, the 176 min running time doesn't match up with any of the listed times, even accounting for PAL speedup (~4-5%). So even more reason it's highly likely not worth the time and money to transfer unless you just must have every version.

Runtime: 192 min | 233 min (TV) | 320 min (director's cut) | 248 min (roadshow) | 251 min (50th Anniversary) | 234 min (HD)

[LetThemEatCake]

Since it's from Magnetic Home Video, it may well be the TV broadcast version of the movie. They were the first to release the original Halloween on video and IIRC, it was the TV version.

Edit: As I recall, there were several disputes about Magnetic Home Video's releases, including Halloween, which was officially released by, I think Warner Home Video. Anyway, MHV got around the disputes by stating that their releases were different cuts from the official releases.

Edit 2: According to IMDB, the 176 min running time doesn't match up with any of the listed times, even accounting for PAL speedup (~4-5%). So even more reason it's highly likely not worth the time and money to transfer unless you just must have every version.

Runtime: 192 min | 233 min (TV) | 320 min (director's cut) | 248 min (roadshow) | 251 min (50th Anniversary) | 234 min (HD)

The information of Cleopatra on the net is wrong, the roadshow version was 251 minutes, or 4 hours and 10 minutes, this version was shown at the New York premiere and possibly Los Angeles, for the rest of the United States and the world, a 3 hour and 10 minutes version was shown. This was never broadcasted on television and it has never been available to the public or seen by anyone since 1963. It is an absolute must to get this digitized. Warner may not even have this version anymore for all we know. Assuming it is the theatrical version on the tape, which it all indicates, it is.

[LetThemEatCake]

Hello everyone, this is the tape I have, what do you think I should do in order to get it digitized? Honestly, I do trust ebay, if the equipment doesn't work, the company that brings it to me allows for it to be returned. I do not live in the US or UK so I can't sent it there. Do you think that buying a betamax player would be enough to get it digitized? I will ask this to the person I know but would like to know your opinions.
[Attachment 49997 - Click to enlarge]

[lingyi]

Interesting. FYI, there's also a 217 min PAL LD version: https://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/32625/1008-35/Cleopatra

Well, I've given you the resources to get it done. Good luck on your quest!

[johnmeyer]

lingyi: Though the running time is stated to be 176mins, not 195min.
DB83: The difference in timings could be due to PAL speed-up ?

That seems likely, although 195 * (24/25) = 187, not 176.

DB83: Johnmeyer, who has replied in this topic, does transfers but I suspect he can not do Betamax and PAL.

That is correct: I do have a working Betamax NTSC player, a Sony SL-2500 which someone gave me after I transferred all of his tapes ("here, you keep it.") I just looked at the specs online and it plays Beta I, II, & III.

I couldn't find any information on whether it handles PAL, but since I don't think there were any dual standard units, I'm 99.999% certain that it is NTSC-only. So, if the tape turns out to be PAL, I can't help.

By the way, I did briefly look at laserdiscs for your movie. There have been quite a few instances of rare items like this only turning up on laserdisc. One of the best known, and one which I actually did for a client, is Disney's "Songs of the South." It is a film based on Uncle Remus stories which is considered racist by modern day society and therefore Disney never released it in this country (even though it includes the Oscar-winning song, "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah"). However, it was released in Japan, but only on laserdisc. These fetch upwards of $150. I paid that, did the transfer, removed the Japanese subtitles, and sold the disc to someone else on eBay for about the same amount.

I have briefly looked at eBay to see if there is a laserdisc version of this movie with the running time you want. I found at least two versions, but both are 4+ hours. I then did a search on one of the popular laserdisc databases and turned up this:

https://www.lddb.com/search.php?search=cleopatra&sort=title

It looks like there may be as many as eight different versions. The one that has the running time close to what you want is this one:

https://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/32625/1008-35/Cleopatra

Only 217 minutes.

The problem? It is PAL!! I suspect that it may be from the same source as your Betamax tape.

I have never looked at my Pioneer CLD-3070 laserdisc player to see if it could handle PAL. Probably not.

Regardless of whether I could do it or not, using laserdisc as the source will almost certainly give you better quality, and if someone else is going to have to do the transfer, you shouldn't really care whether it is Beta or laserdisc.

[lingyi]

Baby and treasure your SL-2500 which is NTSC only and was the flagship Betamax until the SL-HF-2700 came out as the first Beta Hi-Fi machine. Bother are based on the SL-2000 portable Betamax and are prone to failure of the loading ring which has folding tape guide pins to achieve the slim profile. If a tape jams, DON'T pull it out as this may bend or break the pins! I had the SL-HF 2700 (as well a most of the other high-end Betamax(s)) and it had the loading ring replaced several times. The last repair was a modified version and I put on the shelf after that.

As I stated above, MrBetamax has a few multi-system machines, but they're rare and expense. And likely to have a lower quality output vs. dedicated PAL machines.

Edit: I almost bought the SL-2500, but I used to read (actually just look at the pictures and ads) Japanese electronics magazines and knew about the SL-HF 2700 almost a year before it was released in the U.S. When I'd ask the Sony reps in the store or at the repair center about it, their answer was "Yes, it is for sale in Japan, but No, we don't know / when it will come to the U.S.

[LetThemEatCake]

Interesting. FYI, there's also a 217 min PAL LD version: https://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/32625/1008-35/Cleopatra

Well, I've given you the resources to get it done. Good luck on your quest!

thank you for your help, just one more thing, what equipment do I need to buy? if I buy a PAL betamax player, will that be enough?

[LetThemEatCake]

lingyi: Though the running time is stated to be 176mins, not 195min.
DB83: The difference in timings could be due to PAL speed-up ?

That seems likely, although 195 * (24/25) = 187, not 176.

DB83: Johnmeyer, who has replied in this topic, does transfers but I suspect he can not do Betamax and PAL.

That is correct: I do have a working Betamax NTSC player, a Sony SL-2500 which someone gave me after I transferred all of his tapes ("here, you keep it.") I just looked at the specs online and it plays Beta I, II, & III.

I couldn't find any information on whether it handles PAL, but since I don't think there were any dual standard units, I'm 99.999% certain that it is NTSC-only. So, if the tape turns out to be PAL, I can't help.

By the way, I did briefly look at laserdiscs for your movie. There have been quite a few instances of rare items like this only turning up on laserdisc. One of the best known, and one which I actually did for a client, is Disney's "Songs of the South." It is a film based on Uncle Remus stories which is considered racist by modern day society and therefore Disney never released it in this country (even though it includes the Oscar-winning song, "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah"). However, it was released in Japan, but only on laserdisc. These fetch upwards of $150. I paid that, did the transfer, removed the Japanese subtitles, and sold the disc to someone else on eBay for about the same amount.

I have briefly looked at eBay to see if there is a laserdisc version of this movie with the running time you want. I found at least two versions, but both are 4+ hours. I then did a search on one of the popular laserdisc databases and turned up this:

https://www.lddb.com/search.php?search=cleopatra&sort=title

It looks like there may be as many as eight different versions. The one that has the running time close to what you want is this one:

https://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/32625/1008-35/Cleopatra

Only 217 minutes.

The problem? It is PAL!! I suspect that it may be from the same source as your Betamax tape.

I have never looked at my Pioneer CLD-3070 laserdisc player to see if it could handle PAL. Probably not.

Regardless of whether I could do it or not, using laserdisc as the source will almost certainly give you better quality, and if someone else is going to have to do the transfer, you shouldn't really care whether it is Beta or laserdisc.

thank you for your help, unfortunately I don't think I can digitize any laserdisc where I live.

[LetThemEatCake]

Is this it it? http://www.videocollector.co.uk/cleopatra/29651. Though the running time is stated to be 176mins, not 195min.

Have you actually seen the image quality of it? It's very likely cropped and the video quality fair at best being videotape. Plus the audio quality will be poor mono since this was before stereo and Beta Hi-Fi. I highly suggest viewing a snippet of it before putting any more time or money into the project.

Edit: If it's a Magnetic Home Video release, the quality of their releases were fair to good at best, even by videotape standards. No remastering, minimal to no cleanup of the original. However, they did release some videos that weren't available from anyone else.

In case my tape is damaged, could I buy another from that website? haven't registered yet.

[LetThemEatCake]

I just heard back from the guy who is helping me, he tells me he uses a SUPER BETA, don't know what that is, and a computer video card? Prior to this he succesfully digitized a VHS for me, a commercial one.