Current status of ld-decode / vhs-decode (true "backup" of RF signals)

[Spektre]

I do find it quite funny that I live rent-free in Kevin's head, It's a tax haven after all I wish my local taxman didn't bother me.

(Hippity hoppity r/DigitalFAQ Is my property)

He obviously keeps on trying to put hard work and effort into strawmaning me, and years of my work and the community members work (People who he can't even name, because he sure can't read a commit log on GitHub) but I have to give an old dog credit for trying.

What I don't find funny is the endless misinformation posting, lapping as intelligible with half intellectual sounding responses which just is outright brainrot.

Like the post above which is outright cost of workflow misinformation about FM RF archival hardware costs, and capability scope of decode which supports every major consumer format, most professional formats that gained mass adoption, and anyone that can read the first page of the readme gets that information update for free.

(Your average 5min fresh reader would be more informed then Kevin here, who loves to just expressly take part in a community he not only knows nothing about, yet expressly and arbitrarily criticise things that were addressed years ago, wholesale uninformed people can't have legitimate opinions or any ground to stand on)

Just loves to skip over the fact that if you recommend the same deck for 20 years it has a SEO score indexing effect that perpetually increases, inflation by association, I don't have to spew out massive amounts of correlative math on that really everyone knows the advertising dystopia we live in.

(Being called right wing +5 bating points, excellent character assassination move okay now let me go find my armband, oh wait it's got a hammer and sickle on it, this is kind of awkward)

Just because I use language which is culturally shit post appropriate to someone's native region, and age bracket, doesn't help when they live upto the stereotype and act demented in terms of memorising basic facts about his opposition, It's like calling someone a Nazi It's all fun and games until you realise, well I actually can use chemical weapons and you still don't know difference between a P3 filter and an ABEK2P3 filter so you don't breathe in mould spores and damage your lungs... then again you don't even clean clients tapes despite charging them over a thousand bucks... so I guess there's that factor to take to account.

Anyways I've been enjoying providing the glorious salvation that is FM RF Archival to every museum, transfer house and individuals that can do this bizarre ancient thing called reading.... Why yesterday I got an email from some guy in Canada who reached out to Kevin for advice and realised he nearly got himself scammed into using legacy outdated workflows which wouldn't have preserved key stuff like the VITC timecode.

What in the world does this help?

This @LordSmuf is why I said they could delete my posts.

[The 14th Doctor]

Imo it's just more fuel for the fire.. the classic method is legacy, but it's not outdated ie not useful at all. It's like using a old and out of support operating system, sometimes we have to use it because only certain programs run well in it.

[lordsmurf]

We are dealing with outdated tech anyway,

That's it. This activity is on a clock. It has no longer-term future. Converting video has been on a downward trajectory since the 2000s. The 2010s was largely the era of redo, the 2nd conversion attempts after the 1st botched attempts (due to using either cheap gear, or bad services, or both). What you have now, in the 2020s, is people late to the game (didn't get the memo), or the younglings temporarily dabbling with the prior generation's formats.

No different than using DV

That's a good analogy.

So you equate his archiving claims with his political leanings....interesting.

No, just the attitude and tendency to avoid facts. It matches.

the "right way" and then there is crap.

"Shades are gray" doesn't include Easycaps/Elgatos. Those are 100% junk.

Inflation today has made prices generally 40% higher than in 2012.

No, not for AV/photo gear, and certainly not for the analog pro/semi-pro niche. Because, again, false low prices in the '10-15 area, post-GFC, oversupply, and "analog is dead" sentiment.

So, one can make a vhs-decode system for a similar cost to a VCR/TBC/capture card system that produces similar quality?

Yes, based around ES10/15 as the TBC(ish). Not best, not worst, just decent.

but for people of our age, we can usually let it roll off our backs.

I mostly ignore it. Better things to do.

[Spektre]

We are dealing with outdated tech anyway,

That's it. This activity is on a clock. It has no longer-term future. Converting video has been on a downward trajectory since the 2000s. The 2010s was largely the era of redo, the 2nd conversion attempts after the 1st botched attempts (due to using either cheap gear, or bad services, or both). What you have now, in the 2020s, is people late to the game (didn't get the memo), or the younglings temporarily dabbling with the prior generation's formats.

You're right of course. Videohelp and digitalFAQ should probably close up shop tomorrow...
Get off our lawn you kids!!

So you equate his archiving claims with his political leanings....interesting.

No, just the attitude and tendency to avoid facts. It matches.

I took that to mean you were commenting on his archiving claims. If you were talking about the person instead...

A while back, somebody asked me what I think of you.
My response = "I don't."

the "right way" and then there is crap.

"Shades are gray" doesn't include Easycaps/Elgatos. Those are 100% junk.

So, there you go Harry, LordSmurf said your method is not "crap". Now you say something nice about Lord Smurf and his methods.

Inflation today has made prices generally 40% higher than in 2012.

No, not for AV/photo gear, and certainly not for the analog pro/semi-pro niche. Because, again, false low prices in the '10-15 area, post-GFC, oversupply, and "analog is dead" sentiment.

Yes, but that IS the rate of inflation over that time period, underscoring that since these devices are WELL outpacing inflation, they are becoming unaffordable to a greater number of people.

So, one can make a vhs-decode system for a similar cost to a VCR/TBC/capture card system that produces similar quality?

Yes, based around ES10/15 as the TBC(ish). Not best, not worst, just decent.

So, it sounds like vhs-decode is a viable strategy to take.

but for people of our age, we can usually let it roll off our backs.

I mostly ignore it. Better things to do.

Probably a good strategy.

[The 14th Doctor]

LS himself can correct me, but I think his stance on Decode is that he doesn't love it so far, nor hate it and wish for it do fizzle out and die, he just seems to be understandably skeptical about it, only he can answer on this but I believe he also views it as an option, a path to take if one wants to dig even deeper in video rabbit hole, he's just warning others that it isn't full proof nor easy and simple.

Stick with a refurbished S-VHS VCR and the like just so you can have a great, proper capture (if the tapes you have aren't physically defective), then test out decode if you want to. What ticks him off is when it's being claimed to be the only solution, and that it is 100% better that recommended workflows, which it isn't. It might be better, or worse, or overall the same. I don't think there is a clear cut and dry answer here right now. The whole process also isn't stupidly easy for the average guy, I don't think it'll lead to an overnight mass adoption like Harry thinks it'll lead to.

In my eyes decode is certainly a strategy, might not be fully viable but it is there. I just hate it when it's being presented as the only option. In my eyes the truth is that it is better than a crappy composite setup, but so is the traditional recommended workflow, which people like us and proper transfer houses/archival museums should be or even are using.

There really isn't a lot of proper comparisons yet since most of them are comparing in towards consumer composite VCRs and less than ideal capture cards, but from the comparison Brad made here and Slushly made on DigitalFAQ Decode ranges from worse to not better in my opinion.

[lordsmurf]

So, there you go Harry, LordSmurf said your method is not "crap". Now you say something nice about Lord Smurf and his methods..

Correct. I've never said vhs-decode is "crap". Just that it has archival concerns, obvious flaws. Not best, not worst. Too much hyperbole, too much misinformation on time and costs required. But a shade of gray. Perfectly fair criticism.

Yes, but that IS the rate of inflation over that time period, underscoring that since these devices are WELL outpacing inflation, they are becoming unaffordable to a greater number of people.

Inflation varies by sector, industry, and niche. Just look at the most recent CPI report (or PCE), and the aggregated reports from the past 5 years. It's not pretty for anything, but it varies wildly. Some items can be up 15% (like telecom), while others have almost doubled/100% (like car insurance). It's not a single steady rate of increase for all products and services.

But regardless, video gear has never been low-cost/"affordable" to the masses. It was always niche, hobby or pro. I tried to make it easier for laymen, not more complicated.

So, it sounds like vhs-decode is a viable strategy to take.

Sure. But the definition of "viable" can vary. Again, the method has glaring flaws (ie, that halo/ringing is atrocious). If you like those flaws ("artistic interpretation"), or just don't care, well there you go. But orgs/archivists, even serious hobbyists, are not Joe Sixpack, and have quality standards that see it as not viable. Not just image quality, but audio concerns, and negative/poor ROI (time), etc. These are all things others have noticed too, it's not just me.

Probably a good strategy.

Yep. I can instead have pleasant conversations with folks such as yourself.

LS himself can correct me, but I think his stance on Decode is that he doesn't love it so far, nor hate it and wish for it do fizzle out and die, he just seems to be understandably skeptical about it, only he can answer on this but I believe he also views it as an option, a path to take if one wants to dig even deeper in video rabbit hole, he's just warning others that it isn't full proof nor easy and simple.
Stick with a refurbished S-VHS VCR and the like just so you can have a great, proper capture (if the tapes you have aren't physically defective), then test out decode if you want to. What ticks him off is when it's being claimed to be the only solution, and that it is 100% better that recommended workflows, which it isn't. It might be better, or worse, or overall the same. I don't think there is a clear cut and dry answer here right now. The whole process also isn't stupidly easy for the average guy, I don't think it'll lead to an overnight mass adoption like Harry thinks it'll lead to.

Correct.

There really isn't a lot of proper comparisons yet since most of them are comparing in towards consumer composite VCRs and less than ideal capture cards, but from the comparison Brad made here and Slushly made on DigitalFAQ Decode ranges from worse to not better in my opinion.

Yep.

[Spektre]

Yes, but that IS the rate of inflation over that time period, underscoring that since these devices are WELL outpacing inflation, they are becoming unaffordable to a greater number of people.

Inflation varies by sector, industry, and niche. Just look at the most recent CPI report (or PCE), and the aggregated reports from the past 5 years. It's not pretty for anything, but it varies wildly. Some items can be up 15% (like telecom), while others have almost doubled/100% (like car insurance). It's not a single steady rate of increase for all products and services.

But regardless, video gear has never been low-cost/"affordable" to the masses. It was always niche, hobby or pro. I tried to make it easier for laymen, not more complicated.

LS, you keep making my point for me. The gear you prefer has costs that are outstripping inflation. Therefore fewer and fewer people will be able to afford it. The price of some items do not increase as quickly, and thus they become affordable for more people.. Your gear, compared to the rate of inflation is increasing more quickly and thus is becoming LESS affordable.

So, it sounds like vhs-decode is a viable strategy to take.

Sure. But the definition of "viable" can vary. Again, the method has glaring flaws (ie, that halo/ringing is atrocious). If you like those flaws ("artistic interpretation"), or just don't care, well there you go. But orgs/archivists, even serious hobbyists, are not Joe Sixpack, and have quality standards that see it as not viable. Not just image quality, but audio concerns, and negative/poor ROI (time), etc. These are all things others have noticed too, it's not just me.

But you said:

Odds are, it will mostly work in highly per-tape tweaking by dedicated archivists that insist on getting that tiny % of sharpness.

[Spektre]

I just hate it when it's being presented as the only option.

Just as Lord Smurf has done in his last post to me where he calls vhs-decode not viable for even "Joe Sixpack".

You just can't have it both ways Doc.

[Spektre]

I have a large set of tapes I am completing now using the "standard method" as I had the gear already.

Following this, health permitting, I'll try out the vhs-decode method and post the A-B results.

[The 14th Doctor]

It's not viable for the average guy who isn't an electronics engineer nor somebody who tinkers with electronics as a hobby. Yet if you want the best results from the traditional method you'd need to fork over a good chunk of money, and pray you'll be able to make the money back somehow, been trying to do myself as I'm doing this as a side gig for family and close friends, along with doing photos too. Ah hah, I'd say I'd be able to make back the money spent on everything by doing more photos than tapes.

I guess I'm not the right guy to talk because I was able to afford the whole workflow and not get into debt over it..

But I can understand LS' argument on time/ROI. Imagine you're the head of a transfer service that gets tons of clients coming in during the holidays, therefore your workers are extremely busy, they wouldn't have the time to get this new unknown method up and running, nor have enough time to teach a new employee the ropes on how to get it (both the hardware modifications and software scripting) up and running as soon as possible. And heavens what would happen if they mess up doing a tape and need to redo it over and over again while the clock is ticking.

At the very least with a conventional workflow, when all the items work as intended, all you'd need to know is how to capture the tape (and imo be on the lookout for mold), as well as monitor the capture from time to time, knowing when to stop the tape and whatnot.

Do look forward to seeing your hopefully more proper comparisons, we really need more like in the sea of cherry picked inaccurate samples

[Spektre]

It's not viable for the average guy who isn't an electronics engineer nor somebody who tinkers with electronics as a hobby.

Granted, I am an electronics engineer, but I don't think tying into one test point on a VCR necessitates one.

[aramkolt]

The CX card method I think is simple enough that most likely you'd know someone that would be willing to do the soldering or you could just buy a card pre-modded from someone willing to do it for a small fee. Hooking it up I don't think is the complicated part, it's more getting the software to work and having a modern enough desktop computer to use it. I just grabbed a CX card since that's the "more budget" option for testing and they are still available for around $30 shipped from aliexpress despite tariff stuff. It seemed the demo YouTube video on how to do the mod probably could have been done in about 5 minutes if the RCA jack unsoldered more easily which could probably be done with low melt solder pretty easily. I'll likely post a video of when I mod mine whenever that eventually arrives. Using the separate amplifier board suggested to impedance match looks less straightforward though, but It'll be interesting to see what the performance is of the basic $30 setup compared to the DD V3.0. The 40Mhz Crystal/Oscillator I see is only like 27 cents on mouser, issue is just the fixed shipping, but basically a free item if you are ordering along with other things from Mouser.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the DD is set up to use 50 ohm cables and BNCs whereas most other BNCs used in video applications is 75 ohm, so that is a liiiiiitle annoying that it isn't 75 ohm as well.

I take it there isn't a mod that would allow the CX card to work with 75 ohm cable and BNCs? My guess is it would involve changing a resistor value somewhere, or does it not matter as long as the BNCs and cables are all kept the same?

[harrypm]

The CX card method I think is simple enough that most likely you'd know someone that would be willing to do the soldering or you could just buy a card pre-modded from someone willing to do it for a small fee. Hooking it up I don't think is the complicated part, it's more getting the software to work and having a modern enough desktop computer to use it. I just grabbed a CX card since that's the "more budget" option for testing and they are still available for around $30 shipped from aliexpress despite tariff stuff. It seemed the demo YouTube video on how to do the mod probably could have been done in about 5 minutes if the RCA jack unsoldered more easily which could probably be done with low melt solder pretty easily. I'll likely post a video of when I mod mine whenever that eventually arrives. Using the separate amplifier board suggested to impedance match looks less straightforward though, but It'll be interesting to see what the performance is of the basic $30 setup compared to the DD V3.0. The 40Mhz Crystal/Oscillator I see is only like 27 cents on mouser, issue is just the fixed shipping, but basically a free item if you are ordering along with other things from Mouser.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the DD is set up to use 50 ohm cables and BNCs whereas most other BNCs used in video applications is 75 ohm, so that is a liiiiiitle annoying that it isn't 75 ohm as well.

I take it there isn't a mod that would allow the CX card to work with 75 ohm cable and BNCs? My guess is it would involve changing a resistor value somewhere, or does it not matter as long as the BNCs and cables are all kept the same?

It's DdD not DD.

Yeah low melt solder is noted in the wiki and in the comments, there will be an update video to that eventually.

(The crystal used is just a reference you can use virtually any 40Mhz fundamental this is noted in the wiki)

The 50/75Ohm situation doesn't really matter because the ADA4857 amplifier can be terminated however you want and also 1m or less cabling It doesn't make a real world difference.

The clockgen mod is this current standard rather than crystal replacement (unless you're only concerne is 8mm/Betamax NTSC or audioless EIAJ or somethin), purely for synchronisation with multiple cards and a standard baseband ADC this has been the standard for 2 years now.

(FLAC v1.5.0 made the compression situation a turnkey straight to archive situation, support has been directly integrated into MISRC capture aswell, the DdD app will get an update at some point)

If you're testing performance between the two they will be identical with an ADA amplifier It's decode which is actually doing the heavy lifting and the DdD only shines when you're doing laserdisc because of it's LPF filtering design which you can replicate with components for the CX Cards also.

[lordsmurf]

Yet if you want the best results from the traditional method you'd need to fork over a good chunk of money, and pray you'll be able to make the money back somehow,

Wait, wait...
- If this is for hobby, then there's no reason to "make the money back". All hobbies have costs. By comparison, the gear we need for analog conversion is cheap. Almost anything is more expensive: collecting action figures, sports, photography, cars, sewing, gardening, etc.
- If this is for a one-time DIY task, then: buy it, use it, resell it. Quality gear holds value.
- If this is for a business, then you need a business plan. In terms of business costs, this gear has really low capex compared to most other fields, especially on a yearly or even quarterly spend cycle. As an entrepreneur, one has to learn to escape layman (often ignorant) understandings of finance.

But I can understand LS' argument on time/ROI. Imagine you're the head of a transfer service that gets tons of clients coming in during the holidays, therefore your workers are extremely busy, they wouldn't have the time to get this new unknown method up and running, nor have enough time to teach a new employee the ropes on how to get it (both the hardware modifications and software scripting) up and running as soon as possible. And heavens what would happen if they mess up doing a tape and need to redo it over and over again while the clock is ticking.

It's not even about that. The main issue is the time. The process is slower, can vary wildly between setups, and can vary wildly based on the tape inserted. If you're just one schmoe at home, using one VCR, with a few tapes, with unlimited time (young, unemployed, single, etc), then you can eventually fight it to work. That's also ignoring if you even finds the results acceptable. That's unacceptable for an organization, and honestly even many serious hobbyists. Our main focus is the video, not screwing around with the tools before we even get to the video.

But you said:

Odds are, it will mostly work in highly per-tape tweaking by dedicated archivists that insist on getting that tiny % of sharpness.

The sharpness hypothesis has since been proven false. It's not sharper.

Inflation varies by sector, industry, and niche. Just look at the most recent CPI report (or PCE), and the aggregated reports from the past 5 years. It's not pretty for anything, but it varies wildly. Some items can be up 15% (like telecom), while others have almost doubled/100% (like car insurance). It's not a single steady rate of increase for all products and services.
But regardless, video gear has never been low-cost/"affordable" to the masses. It was always niche, hobby or pro. I tried to make it easier for laymen, not more complicated.

LS, you keep making my point for me. The gear you prefer has costs that are outstripping inflation. Therefore fewer and fewer people will be able to afford it. The price of some items do not increase as quickly, and thus they become affordable for more people.. Your gear, compared to the rate of inflation is increasing more quickly and thus is becoming LESS affordable.

Car insurance has also vastly outstripped the average inflation rate. Does that mean we've all stop driving cars? (No.)

Averages merely take the highs, and the lows, and give a middle value. What's more interesting is the mean, or a winsorized mean. If you took the latest CPI, and winsorized it, the inflation % picture looks vastly worse. Numbers are also art, not pure science.

[Spektre]

But you said:

Odds are, it will mostly work in highly per-tape tweaking by dedicated archivists that insist on getting that tiny % of sharpness.

--

The sharpness hypothesis has since been proven false. It's not sharper.

The either sounds like moving the goalposts or that you just made up the sharpness advantage earlier.

Inflation varies by sector, industry, and niche. Just look at the most recent CPI report (or PCE), and the aggregated reports from the past 5 years. It's not pretty for anything, but it varies wildly. Some items can be up 15% (like telecom), while others have almost doubled/100% (like car insurance). It's not a single steady rate of increase for all products and services.
But regardless, video gear has never been low-cost/"affordable" to the masses. It was always niche, hobby or pro. I tried to make it easier for laymen, not more complicated.

LS, you keep making my point for me. The gear you prefer has costs that are outstripping inflation. Therefore fewer and fewer people will be able to afford it. The price of some items do not increase as quickly, and thus they become affordable for more people.. Your gear, compared to the rate of inflation is increasing more quickly and thus is becoming LESS affordable.

Car insurance has also vastly outstripped the average inflation rate. Does that mean we've all stop driving cars? (No.)

I'm sure you are not claiming video capturing for "Joe Sixpack" has the same level of neccesity that driving does. Medical costs are higher now as well. AND medical cost are affordable for less people. Food costs have outstripped inflation also. Food is less affordable now than it was a few years ago. The price of clothing has increased less than rate of inflation. Clothing is more affordable now than in the recent past.

Averages merely take the highs, and the lows, and give a middle value. What's more interesting is the mean, or a winsorized mean. If you took the latest CPI, and winsorized it, the inflation % picture looks vastly worse. Numbers are also art, not pure science.

There is no black magic here. The prices of video capturing equipment using the SVHS-TBC-capture card method have greatly outstripped inflation. As such, it is now less affordable than it was to go this route. As gear dies, this trend is likely to continue in the near term.

In 2012 I was able to obtain a working 1980P deck and AVT-8710 TBC for ~$400. Based on inflation, that should now cost <$600. Instead it is upwards of $2000. I can speak from a data point of one that THAT would not have been in the budget now.

[lordsmurf]

The either sounds like moving the goalposts or that you just made up the sharpness advantage earlier.

It was a mere hypothesis (a scientific method guess, a path for further study), so I guess you could consider it "made up" from those two binary choices you gave. Sharpness gains was a postulation, not yet an analyzed fact -- as suggested ("odds are") in the original text. The postulate was proven wrong, the hypothesis denied. That's just how science works. I was actually hoping that sharpness gains were the outcome, but it's just not so.

outstripped inflation.

Again, there's no single inflation number.

it is now less affordable than it was

Yes, everything is. That's how capitalism works, especially when tied to fiat currency controlled by central banks. (And no, crypto bros, non-fiat is actually worse.) Overall, the system is working as designed. It's just that, sometimes, numbers are imbalanced off the acceptable target (often 2%). Without inflation, there's no real growth to economies -- and that's bad.

In 2012 I was able to obtain a working 1980P deck and AVT-8710 TBC for ~$400.

I'm happy for you. Enjoy!

[Spektre]

outstripped inflation.

Again, there's no single inflation number.

There is. Just as the weatherman will report to me a temperature outside right now which is completely valid and yet does not represent the instantaneous kinetic energy of each molecule.

Importantly, whether a good or a commodity is more or less affordable can be thought in terms of whether it kept pace, increased faster, or increased slower, than inflation.

it is now less affordable than it was

Yes, everything is. That's how capitalism works, especially when tied to fiat currency controlled by central banks. (And no, crypto bros, non-fiat is actually worse.) Overall, the system is working as designed. It's just that, sometimes, numbers are imbalanced off the acceptable target (often 2%). Without inflation, there's no real growth to economies -- and that's bad.

No, not everything is and that is not how capitalism works. Clothing for example is more affordable than in recent decades. I can certainly afford a large screen TV more now than in the past.

Your distrust of crypto tells me all I need to know about you

In the case of prosumer video gear, stuff is less affordable than in the past. It has outpaced inflation by a good bit.

In 2012 I was able to obtain a working 1980P deck and AVT-8710 TBC for ~$400.

I'm happy for you. Enjoy!

Thanks. It was due to these things being more affordable in the past.

[lordsmurf]

Clothing for example is more affordable than in recent decades.

This is 100% tied to overseas manufacturing, using cheap labor. That's actually the current macroeconomic battle going on, with a buffoon wanting to onshore U.S. manufacturing again, which will result in steep multiples of inflation, for those onshored goods. That's just not how 21st century trade works. In most modern countries, we export ideas/tech, and import the widgets made with those ideas/tech.

All of the vhs-decode parts/pieces are made in China. If UK/USA/etc force onshoring (or high taxes/duties/tariffs), you can bet costs will massively inflate.

Most video gear was made in Japan, USA, Canada, UK, Germany, etc -- not Chinese sweat shops. That's a reason that (1) the video gear has lasted longer, and (2) had a higher initial price. Chinese-made video gear is mostly unusable crap, few exceptions.

I don't think you understand economics. But that's fine, not everybody does, and you can learn.

This is a video topic anyway.

[aramkolt]

The CX card method I think is simple enough that most likely you'd know someone that would be willing to do the soldering or you could just buy a card pre-modded from someone willing to do it for a small fee. Hooking it up I don't think is the complicated part, it's more getting the software to work and having a modern enough desktop computer to use it. I just grabbed a CX card since that's the "more budget" option for testing and they are still available for around $30 shipped from aliexpress despite tariff stuff. It seemed the demo YouTube video on how to do the mod probably could have been done in about 5 minutes if the RCA jack unsoldered more easily which could probably be done with low melt solder pretty easily. I'll likely post a video of when I mod mine whenever that eventually arrives. Using the separate amplifier board suggested to impedance match looks less straightforward though, but It'll be interesting to see what the performance is of the basic $30 setup compared to the DD V3.0. The 40Mhz Crystal/Oscillator I see is only like 27 cents on mouser, issue is just the fixed shipping, but basically a free item if you are ordering along with other things from Mouser.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the DD is set up to use 50 ohm cables and BNCs whereas most other BNCs used in video applications is 75 ohm, so that is a liiiiiitle annoying that it isn't 75 ohm as well.

I take it there isn't a mod that would allow the CX card to work with 75 ohm cable and BNCs? My guess is it would involve changing a resistor value somewhere, or does it not matter as long as the BNCs and cables are all kept the same?

It's DdD not DD.

Yeah low melt solder is noted in the wiki and in the comments, there will be an update video to that eventually.

(The crystal used is just a reference you can use virtually any 40Mhz fundamental this is noted in the wiki)

The 50/75Ohm situation doesn't really matter because the ADA4857 amplifier can be terminated however you want and also 1m or less cabling It doesn't make a real world difference.

The clockgen mod is this current standard rather than crystal replacement (unless you're only concerne is 8mm/Betamax NTSC or audioless EIAJ or somethin), purely for synchronisation with multiple cards and a standard baseband ADC this has been the standard for 2 years now.

(FLAC v1.5.0 made the compression situation a turnkey straight to archive situation, support has been directly integrated into MISRC capture aswell, the DdD app will get an update at some point)

If you're testing performance between the two they will be identical with an ADA amplifier It's decode which is actually doing the heavy lifting and the DdD only shines when you're doing laserdisc because of it's LPF filtering design which you can replicate with components for the CX Cards also.

I'd really only be using for NTSC VHS, U-Matic, and Betamax I think. Would just the crystal replacement be ok in those scenarios? I was not planning to make up an ADA4857 board as that adds more complexity - I could see trying to do it with prototyping board though if I can find the schematic. I'm not concerned with audio capture at this point since the original audio circuits tend to work pretty well on the older machines.

[Spektre]

Clothing for example is more affordable than in recent decades.

This is 100% tied to overseas manufacturing, using cheap labor. That's actually the current macroeconomic battle going on, with a buffoon wanting to onshore U.S. manufacturing again, which will result in steep multiples of inflation, for those onshored goods. That's just not how 21st century trade works. In most modern countries, we export ideas/tech, and import the widgets made with those ideas/tech.

All of the vhs-decode parts/pieces are made in China. If UK/USA/etc force onshoring (or high taxes/duties/tariffs), you can bet costs will massively inflate.

Most video gear was made in Japan, USA, Canada, UK, Germany, etc -- not Chinese sweat shops. That's a reason that (1) the video gear has lasted longer, and (2) had a higher initial price. Chinese-made video gear is mostly unusable crap, few exceptions.

I don't think you understand economics. But that's fine, not everybody does, and you can learn.

This is a video topic anyway.

I understand enough about economics AND attempted gaslighting.

I made no assertions as to WHY clothing is more affordable now. Simply that it was.

The relationship to the video topic was that the gear needed to perform captures as you prefer to do them has become less affordable to people because the prices of said equipment have risen faster than inflation.

[Brad]

Hopefully I'll have some worthwhile AG-1980 samples ready to post this week. Maybe tonight if I'm really lucky. The rewolf amp does resolve the amplitude drop + crosshatch issues.

I tried a camcorder tape, and then an EP mode TV recording. Neither seemed worth the effort of posting, and since then I've been spending time on other things.

For both, the current vhs-decode result produces smeared edges -- particularly on generated text (camcorder date/time, credits on the TV show).

On the Discord, the consensus appears to be that the issue is in the RF filtering code. Unless some DSP expert comes along, it seems this problem isn't going away soon.


My personal assessment of this "debate":

As long as the RF captures themselves are done correctly, this should only require a software update and re-decode to fix. Meaning, this is a current limitation of the free vhs-decode package that has largely been written by a half-dozen generous contributors.

The "FM RF Archival Method" has two separate stages: the actual "head preamp RF" data capture, and then the processing. The capture portion, ever since the introduction of the "rewolf amp", appears* to produce an archival-grade RF dump for preservation purposes. The hardware has proven capable of "backing up" LaserDiscs, with the decoded results demonstrating full resolution.

(* As dellsam34 has pointed out, we can't say for sure that the capture is unadulterated without the matching software to provide evidence.)

For VHS, the software to turn that file into video still needs work. Note that vhs-decode is not the only software attempt at this. There have been a few proof-of-concept one-man projects out there based on C instead of Python, for example. My point is that if a tape's data is preserved, it could be decoded at some point in the future even if vhs-decode as a project fizzles out and becomes abandonware as Lordsmurf has suggested.

One benefit no one talks about: Once the player is tapped and cabled and amped with dialed-in values for the unit, the actual capture process is easier than conventional methods.

• Normal VirtualDub capture: I have to concern myself with optimizing Brightness/Contrast proc amp controls. Oops, a later portion of the tape has clipped brights using the setting I adjusted for the start of the tape? Better rewind, adjust, capture again.
• Domesday Duplicator: I just hit capture.

In *-decode, the black and white levels are fully controllable in software later and I can change them at my leisure, never being locked into my first choice if I later find that some segment is vastly different. (These adjustments are done on the 16-bit .tbc file after the "decode" step and don't require a re-do of the slow part.)

---

I've read that vhs-decode's Video8 output is on-par with the best conventional workflows. Perhaps that will be my next test. I personally hate the look of Video8 as played by the Sony Hi8 and Digital8 camcorders I've tried.

[harrypm]

The CX card method I think is simple enough that most likely you'd know someone that would be willing to do the soldering or you could just buy a card pre-modded from someone willing to do it for a small fee. Hooking it up I don't think is the complicated part, it's more getting the software to work and having a modern enough desktop computer to use it. I just grabbed a CX card since that's the "more budget" option for testing and they are still available for around $30 shipped from aliexpress despite tariff stuff. It seemed the demo YouTube video on how to do the mod probably could have been done in about 5 minutes if the RCA jack unsoldered more easily which could probably be done with low melt solder pretty easily. I'll likely post a video of when I mod mine whenever that eventually arrives. Using the separate amplifier board suggested to impedance match looks less straightforward though, but It'll be interesting to see what the performance is of the basic $30 setup compared to the DD V3.0. The 40Mhz Crystal/Oscillator I see is only like 27 cents on mouser, issue is just the fixed shipping, but basically a free item if you are ordering along with other things from Mouser.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the DD is set up to use 50 ohm cables and BNCs whereas most other BNCs used in video applications is 75 ohm, so that is a liiiiiitle annoying that it isn't 75 ohm as well.

I take it there isn't a mod that would allow the CX card to work with 75 ohm cable and BNCs? My guess is it would involve changing a resistor value somewhere, or does it not matter as long as the BNCs and cables are all kept the same?

It's DdD not DD.

Yeah low melt solder is noted in the wiki and in the comments, there will be an update video to that eventually.

(The crystal used is just a reference you can use virtually any 40Mhz fundamental this is noted in the wiki)

The 50/75Ohm situation doesn't really matter because the ADA4857 amplifier can be terminated however you want and also 1m or less cabling It doesn't make a real world difference.

The clockgen mod is this current standard rather than crystal replacement (unless you're only concerne is 8mm/Betamax NTSC or audioless EIAJ or somethin), purely for synchronisation with multiple cards and a standard baseband ADC this has been the standard for 2 years now.

(FLAC v1.5.0 made the compression situation a turnkey straight to archive situation, support has been directly integrated into MISRC capture aswell, the DdD app will get an update at some point)

If you're testing performance between the two they will be identical with an ADA amplifier It's decode which is actually doing the heavy lifting and the DdD only shines when you're doing laserdisc because of it's LPF filtering design which you can replicate with components for the CX Cards also.

I'd really only be using for NTSC VHS, U-Matic, and Betamax I think. Would just the crystal replacement be ok in those scenarios? I was not planning to make up an ADA4857 board as that adds more complexity - I could see trying to do it with prototyping board though if I can find the schematic. I'm not concerned with audio capture at this point since the original audio circuits tend to work pretty well on the older machines.

I can only go so much in a loop before I just say go read the wiki.

As mentioned above, proper employment of a high impedance amplifier on the source feed and then a terminated output to your capture equipment gives you the gold standard.

Without hardware synchronisation of your baseband audio capture the standard linear or standard hi-fi that's output as baseband from a deck and or hi-fi FM RF feed.

You will not have a timing accurate source capture for post synchronisation after dropout correction or compensation efforts are used in any manner.

You might not care about this under the circumstance of tapes less than 5 minutes, when you get to the dealing with an hour long or a 6-hour long tape or longer even you will waste more time than it will ever be worth in post production manually aligning that.

The clockgen mod workflow especially applies to linear only formats like Umatic, the whole point is to make it as hands-off one run and done as much as possible for all of the signals to be handled in post.

[aramkolt]

Did some more reading and these are my remaining questions:

1. Any reason to avoid making a through-hole version of the ADA4857 on prototype/perf board? (Like maybe there will be foreseeable shielding issues?)

2. Can variable resistors be used within the ADA4857 circuit for more precise control of gain? If I'm trying this with multiple machines as a test so I don't want to swap out resistors from the circuit whenever it is moved to a different machine ideally.

3. Does the clockgen mod only affect audio sync? In other words, if I was just testing video quality initially, it won't be needed?

[harrypm]

1. Because it's not the 1980s anymore, soldering tweezers are readily available for 20USD, hot air stations likewise, but it also doesn't make sense from a assembly and manufacturing perspective.

2. Sort of jumping off the first question here because they are meant to be installed per VCR and if you install it facing upwards with fixed shoulder cables for example you can still adjust it with a pair of soldering tweezers and a blob of flux very easily, but the idea is you get one per each VCR calibrate it once and that's it that VCR is then production ready for FM RF archival regardless of your capture chain past the BNC bulkheads.

(There is some notations from Rene about the signal degradation if it's going through multiple trim pots)

3. The clockgen mod just synchronises up the CX Cards for both video and hi-fi + baseband ADC.

But yes to get started or to start tinkering you can just start with a bare card or a single one with the clockgen, you can pick and choose your configuration with the standard capture server.

[aramkolt]

Thanks for the info!

The issue with a custom PCB is more about an additional barrier to entry. Having that PCB made or shipped internationally adds more complexity. The point of the perf board is most people that dabble in soldering either already have it, or it can be ordered next day on Amazon relatively inexpensively.

Agree that the cost of the tools for SMD is not the issue. It's more that I think most users just want to use the finished product and not have to build it first. Probably why all the pre-built units are sold out on your site. If things aren't readily available, many people won't wait for it to get back in stock, they'll just use something else.

[VideoMem]

I will ask to return to the ld-decode / vhs-decode thread.
The objective of this thread is to support people wanting to use the tools, not to argue what method is best.

It will never be a massive consumer thing as analog video tape is not massive anymore and I doubt it will be.

But, there's no point of discussing what is easier.
Is another way of doing things.

Imagine when something like 2inch quad tape VTR was released.

Many people said:
too many knobs to adjust, you will need an engineer not a projectionist!

I will stuck to film because is easier to operate.

It is not the same framework, because this project is not as disruptive as the VTR when released, but ...

- Can you share your decode hardware to others instantly?
- Can you upload the decode logic to the cloud and make a service?
- Can you scale it cheaply?

People asking for easiness maybe need something as service and not the full diy rabbit hole.

It will happen even if they have everything plug and play.

If you want to improve the quality at this time stage of discussion, you can't just want the thing to be easy.

You need to think and act as an engineer.
If your tradeoffs resolves to conventional, go with it.

Conventional will never improve anymore unless a group of nerds starts the analog research again and make new hardware for it.
Conventional is stuck in time as the tools of the era.

And conventional as is, it is not as exciting from the learning experience and potential for better results like this project.

But again, the project is for tech people wanting to do tech things no matter what they cost.

It is not a way to get the work done in the least time because the content you capturing is not worthy enough to make an extra effort.

[harrypm]

https://imgsli.com/MzgxNTkz

https://imgsli.com/MzgxNTkx

SVHS decks are fun...

So I finally went out of my way and got the AG4700 adjusted and already had a NV-HD630B capture run, so here's a little A/B with an NTSC tape from 1996 using today's current V0.3.5 and NTSC 2D transform.

This little example shows the very simple point of it's all the same hardware at the heads, full file set will be released with reference captures to the internet archive at some point soon but it's virtually identical quality results especially after you start tinkering with post-processing or playing it back on a CRT/TV.

[Spektre]

https://imgsli.com/MzgxNTkz

https://imgsli.com/MzgxNTkx

SVHS decks are fun...

So I finally went out of my way and got the AG4700 adjusted and already had a NV-HD630B capture run, so here's a little A/B with an NTSC tape from 1996 using today's current V0.3.5 and NTSC 2D transform.

This little example shows the very simple point of it's all the same hardware at the heads, full file set will be released with reference captures to the internet archive at some point soon but it's virtually identical quality results especially after you start tinkering with post-processing or playing it back on a CRT/TV.

Seems a good bit of noise (or sparkle pickup) near the bottom on the AG4700

[dellsam34]

https://imgsli.com/MzgxNTkz

https://imgsli.com/MzgxNTkx

SVHS decks are fun...

So I finally went out of my way and got the AG4700 adjusted and already had a NV-HD630B capture run, so here's a little A/B with an NTSC tape from 1996 using today's current V0.3.5 and NTSC 2D transform.

This little example shows the very simple point of it's all the same hardware at the heads, full file set will be released with reference captures to the internet archive at some point soon but it's virtually identical quality results especially after you start tinkering with post-processing or playing it back on a CRT/TV.

It would be very useful if you make another normal capture using a regular capture method for each VCR to compare it to themselves in the vhsdecode workflow, I wouldn't expect much of difference between the two VCRs at the RF level, Albeit the VHS one is a little bit softer maybe because the video heads/preamp are not designed for higher bandwidth that is required in a S-VHS machine, which made a little impact on a regular VHS tape. Also the samples shown are not ideal for such comparison, you want scenes with complex objects like animals or flowers with sharp edges.

[The 14th Doctor]

This is the only fair-ish comparison I can make, but man it is good that somebody decided to test out VHS Decode in 2024 using the King of The Hill x Neon Genesis Evangelion mashup video. Decided to digitize it my way using a video8 tape, Sony CCD TRV-66 camcorder (plus frame TBC and Pinnacle 510) and PlayStation 3 to play back the original video, capturing the output of the PS3 onto tape using S-Video.

Only thing I did was crop my sample a bit so the proportions are exactly the same, did not do any further restoration work.
https://imgsli.com/MzkzMDIw

Dellsam was right, decode samples do tend to have horrible ringing.