Current status of ld-decode / vhs-decode (true "backup" of RF signals)

[Spektre]

I do find it quite funny that I live rent-free in Kevin's head, It's a tax haven after all I wish my local taxman didn't bother me.

(Hippity hoppity r/DigitalFAQ Is my property)

He obviously keeps on trying to put hard work and effort into strawmaning me, and years of my work and the community members work (People who he can't even name, because he sure can't read a commit log on GitHub) but I have to give an old dog credit for trying.

What I don't find funny is the endless misinformation posting, lapping as intelligible with half intellectual sounding responses which just is outright brainrot.

Like the post above which is outright cost of workflow misinformation about FM RF archival hardware costs, and capability scope of decode which supports every major consumer format, most professional formats that gained mass adoption, and anyone that can read the first page of the readme gets that information update for free.

(Your average 5min fresh reader would be more informed then Kevin here, who loves to just expressly take part in a community he not only knows nothing about, yet expressly and arbitrarily criticise things that were addressed years ago, wholesale uninformed people can't have legitimate opinions or any ground to stand on)

Just loves to skip over the fact that if you recommend the same deck for 20 years it has a SEO score indexing effect that perpetually increases, inflation by association, I don't have to spew out massive amounts of correlative math on that really everyone knows the advertising dystopia we live in.

(Being called right wing +5 bating points, excellent character assassination move okay now let me go find my armband, oh wait it's got a hammer and sickle on it, this is kind of awkward)

Just because I use language which is culturally shit post appropriate to someone's native region, and age bracket, doesn't help when they live upto the stereotype and act demented in terms of memorising basic facts about his opposition, It's like calling someone a Nazi It's all fun and games until you realise, well I actually can use chemical weapons and you still don't know difference between a P3 filter and an ABEK2P3 filter so you don't breathe in mould spores and damage your lungs... then again you don't even clean clients tapes despite charging them over a thousand bucks... so I guess there's that factor to take to account.

Anyways I've been enjoying providing the glorious salvation that is FM RF Archival to every museum, transfer house and individuals that can do this bizarre ancient thing called reading.... Why yesterday I got an email from some guy in Canada who reached out to Kevin for advice and realised he nearly got himself scammed into using legacy outdated workflows which wouldn't have preserved key stuff like the VITC timecode.

What in the world does this help?

This @LordSmuf is why I said they could delete my posts.

[The 14th Doctor]

Imo it's just more fuel for the fire.. the classic method is legacy, but it's not outdated ie not useful at all. It's like using a old and out of support operating system, sometimes we have to use it because only certain programs run well in it.

[lordsmurf]

We are dealing with outdated tech anyway,

That's it. This activity is on a clock. It has no longer-term future. Converting video has been on a downward trajectory since the 2000s. The 2010s was largely the era of redo, the 2nd conversion attempts after the 1st botched attempts (due to using either cheap gear, or bad services, or both). What you have now, in the 2020s, is people late to the game (didn't get the memo), or the younglings temporarily dabbling with the prior generation's formats.

No different than using DV

That's a good analogy.

So you equate his archiving claims with his political leanings....interesting.

No, just the attitude and tendency to avoid facts. It matches.

the "right way" and then there is crap.

"Shades are gray" doesn't include Easycaps/Elgatos. Those are 100% junk.

Inflation today has made prices generally 40% higher than in 2012.

No, not for AV/photo gear, and certainly not for the analog pro/semi-pro niche. Because, again, false low prices in the '10-15 area, post-GFC, oversupply, and "analog is dead" sentiment.

So, one can make a vhs-decode system for a similar cost to a VCR/TBC/capture card system that produces similar quality?

Yes, based around ES10/15 as the TBC(ish). Not best, not worst, just decent.

but for people of our age, we can usually let it roll off our backs.

I mostly ignore it. Better things to do.

[Spektre]

We are dealing with outdated tech anyway,

That's it. This activity is on a clock. It has no longer-term future. Converting video has been on a downward trajectory since the 2000s. The 2010s was largely the era of redo, the 2nd conversion attempts after the 1st botched attempts (due to using either cheap gear, or bad services, or both). What you have now, in the 2020s, is people late to the game (didn't get the memo), or the younglings temporarily dabbling with the prior generation's formats.

You're right of course. Videohelp and digitalFAQ should probably close up shop tomorrow...
Get off our lawn you kids!!

So you equate his archiving claims with his political leanings....interesting.

No, just the attitude and tendency to avoid facts. It matches.

I took that to mean you were commenting on his archiving claims. If you were talking about the person instead...

A while back, somebody asked me what I think of you.
My response = "I don't."

the "right way" and then there is crap.

"Shades are gray" doesn't include Easycaps/Elgatos. Those are 100% junk.

So, there you go Harry, LordSmurf said your method is not "crap". Now you say something nice about Lord Smurf and his methods.

Inflation today has made prices generally 40% higher than in 2012.

No, not for AV/photo gear, and certainly not for the analog pro/semi-pro niche. Because, again, false low prices in the '10-15 area, post-GFC, oversupply, and "analog is dead" sentiment.

Yes, but that IS the rate of inflation over that time period, underscoring that since these devices are WELL outpacing inflation, they are becoming unaffordable to a greater number of people.

So, one can make a vhs-decode system for a similar cost to a VCR/TBC/capture card system that produces similar quality?

Yes, based around ES10/15 as the TBC(ish). Not best, not worst, just decent.

So, it sounds like vhs-decode is a viable strategy to take.

but for people of our age, we can usually let it roll off our backs.

I mostly ignore it. Better things to do.

Probably a good strategy.

[The 14th Doctor]

LS himself can correct me, but I think his stance on Decode is that he doesn't love it so far, nor hate it and wish for it do fizzle out and die, he just seems to be understandably skeptical about it, only he can answer on this but I believe he also views it as an option, a path to take if one wants to dig even deeper in video rabbit hole, he's just warning others that it isn't full proof nor easy and simple.

Stick with a refurbished S-VHS VCR and the like just so you can have a great, proper capture (if the tapes you have aren't physically defective), then test out decode if you want to. What ticks him off is when it's being claimed to be the only solution, and that it is 100% better that recommended workflows, which it isn't. It might be better, or worse, or overall the same. I don't think there is a clear cut and dry answer here right now. The whole process also isn't stupidly easy for the average guy, I don't think it'll lead to an overnight mass adoption like Harry thinks it'll lead to.

In my eyes decode is certainly a strategy, might not be fully viable but it is there. I just hate it when it's being presented as the only option. In my eyes the truth is that it is better than a crappy composite setup, but so is the traditional recommended workflow, which people like us and proper transfer houses/archival museums should be or even are using.

There really isn't a lot of proper comparisons yet since most of them are comparing in towards consumer composite VCRs and less than ideal capture cards, but from the comparison Brad made here and Slushly made on DigitalFAQ Decode ranges from worse to not better in my opinion.

[lordsmurf]

So, there you go Harry, LordSmurf said your method is not "crap". Now you say something nice about Lord Smurf and his methods..

Correct. I've never said vhs-decode is "crap". Just that it has archival concerns, obvious flaws. Not best, not worst. Too much hyperbole, too much misinformation on time and costs required. But a shade of gray. Perfectly fair criticism.

Yes, but that IS the rate of inflation over that time period, underscoring that since these devices are WELL outpacing inflation, they are becoming unaffordable to a greater number of people.

Inflation varies by sector, industry, and niche. Just look at the most recent CPI report (or PCE), and the aggregated reports from the past 5 years. It's not pretty for anything, but it varies wildly. Some items can be up 15% (like telecom), while others have almost doubled/100% (like car insurance). It's not a single steady rate of increase for all products and services.

But regardless, video gear has never been low-cost/"affordable" to the masses. It was always niche, hobby or pro. I tried to make it easier for laymen, not more complicated.

So, it sounds like vhs-decode is a viable strategy to take.

Sure. But the definition of "viable" can vary. Again, the method has glaring flaws (ie, that halo/ringing is atrocious). If you like those flaws ("artistic interpretation"), or just don't care, well there you go. But orgs/archivists, even serious hobbyists, are not Joe Sixpack, and have quality standards that see it as not viable. Not just image quality, but audio concerns, and negative/poor ROI (time), etc. These are all things others have noticed too, it's not just me.

Probably a good strategy.

Yep. I can instead have pleasant conversations with folks such as yourself.

LS himself can correct me, but I think his stance on Decode is that he doesn't love it so far, nor hate it and wish for it do fizzle out and die, he just seems to be understandably skeptical about it, only he can answer on this but I believe he also views it as an option, a path to take if one wants to dig even deeper in video rabbit hole, he's just warning others that it isn't full proof nor easy and simple.
Stick with a refurbished S-VHS VCR and the like just so you can have a great, proper capture (if the tapes you have aren't physically defective), then test out decode if you want to. What ticks him off is when it's being claimed to be the only solution, and that it is 100% better that recommended workflows, which it isn't. It might be better, or worse, or overall the same. I don't think there is a clear cut and dry answer here right now. The whole process also isn't stupidly easy for the average guy, I don't think it'll lead to an overnight mass adoption like Harry thinks it'll lead to.

Correct.

There really isn't a lot of proper comparisons yet since most of them are comparing in towards consumer composite VCRs and less than ideal capture cards, but from the comparison Brad made here and Slushly made on DigitalFAQ Decode ranges from worse to not better in my opinion.

Yep.

[Spektre]

Yes, but that IS the rate of inflation over that time period, underscoring that since these devices are WELL outpacing inflation, they are becoming unaffordable to a greater number of people.

Inflation varies by sector, industry, and niche. Just look at the most recent CPI report (or PCE), and the aggregated reports from the past 5 years. It's not pretty for anything, but it varies wildly. Some items can be up 15% (like telecom), while others have almost doubled/100% (like car insurance). It's not a single steady rate of increase for all products and services.

But regardless, video gear has never been low-cost/"affordable" to the masses. It was always niche, hobby or pro. I tried to make it easier for laymen, not more complicated.

LS, you keep making my point for me. The gear you prefer has costs that are outstripping inflation. Therefore fewer and fewer people will be able to afford it. The price of some items do not increase as quickly, and thus they become affordable for more people.. Your gear, compared to the rate of inflation is increasing more quickly and thus is becoming LESS affordable.

So, it sounds like vhs-decode is a viable strategy to take.

Sure. But the definition of "viable" can vary. Again, the method has glaring flaws (ie, that halo/ringing is atrocious). If you like those flaws ("artistic interpretation"), or just don't care, well there you go. But orgs/archivists, even serious hobbyists, are not Joe Sixpack, and have quality standards that see it as not viable. Not just image quality, but audio concerns, and negative/poor ROI (time), etc. These are all things others have noticed too, it's not just me.

But you said:

Odds are, it will mostly work in highly per-tape tweaking by dedicated archivists that insist on getting that tiny % of sharpness.

[Spektre]

I just hate it when it's being presented as the only option.

Just as Lord Smurf has done in his last post to me where he calls vhs-decode not viable for even "Joe Sixpack".

You just can't have it both ways Doc.

[Spektre]

I have a large set of tapes I am completing now using the "standard method" as I had the gear already.

Following this, health permitting, I'll try out the vhs-decode method and post the A-B results.

[The 14th Doctor]

It's not viable for the average guy who isn't an electronics engineer nor somebody who tinkers with electronics as a hobby. Yet if you want the best results from the traditional method you'd need to fork over a good chunk of money, and pray you'll be able to make the money back somehow, been trying to do myself as I'm doing this as a side gig for family and close friends, along with doing photos too. Ah hah, I'd say I'd be able to make back the money spent on everything by doing more photos than tapes.

I guess I'm not the right guy to talk because I was able to afford the whole workflow and not get into debt over it..

But I can understand LS' argument on time/ROI. Imagine you're the head of a transfer service that gets tons of clients coming in during the holidays, therefore your workers are extremely busy, they wouldn't have the time to get this new unknown method up and running, nor have enough time to teach a new employee the ropes on how to get it (both the hardware modifications and software scripting) up and running as soon as possible. And heavens what would happen if they mess up doing a tape and need to redo it over and over again while the clock is ticking.

At the very least with a conventional workflow, when all the items work as intended, all you'd need to know is how to capture the tape (and imo be on the lookout for mold), as well as monitor the capture from time to time, knowing when to stop the tape and whatnot.

Do look forward to seeing your hopefully more proper comparisons, we really need more like in the sea of cherry picked inaccurate samples

[Spektre]

It's not viable for the average guy who isn't an electronics engineer nor somebody who tinkers with electronics as a hobby.

Granted, I am an electronics engineer, but I don't think tying into one test point on a VCR necessitates one.

[aramkolt]

The CX card method I think is simple enough that most likely you'd know someone that would be willing to do the soldering or you could just buy a card pre-modded from someone willing to do it for a small fee. Hooking it up I don't think is the complicated part, it's more getting the software to work and having a modern enough desktop computer to use it. I just grabbed a CX card since that's the "more budget" option for testing and they are still available for around $30 shipped from aliexpress despite tariff stuff. It seemed the demo YouTube video on how to do the mod probably could have been done in about 5 minutes if the RCA jack unsoldered more easily which could probably be done with low melt solder pretty easily. I'll likely post a video of when I mod mine whenever that eventually arrives. Using the separate amplifier board suggested to impedance match looks less straightforward though, but It'll be interesting to see what the performance is of the basic $30 setup compared to the DD V3.0. The 40Mhz Crystal/Oscillator I see is only like 27 cents on mouser, issue is just the fixed shipping, but basically a free item if you are ordering along with other things from Mouser.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the DD is set up to use 50 ohm cables and BNCs whereas most other BNCs used in video applications is 75 ohm, so that is a liiiiiitle annoying that it isn't 75 ohm as well.

I take it there isn't a mod that would allow the CX card to work with 75 ohm cable and BNCs? My guess is it would involve changing a resistor value somewhere, or does it not matter as long as the BNCs and cables are all kept the same?

[harrypm]

The CX card method I think is simple enough that most likely you'd know someone that would be willing to do the soldering or you could just buy a card pre-modded from someone willing to do it for a small fee. Hooking it up I don't think is the complicated part, it's more getting the software to work and having a modern enough desktop computer to use it. I just grabbed a CX card since that's the "more budget" option for testing and they are still available for around $30 shipped from aliexpress despite tariff stuff. It seemed the demo YouTube video on how to do the mod probably could have been done in about 5 minutes if the RCA jack unsoldered more easily which could probably be done with low melt solder pretty easily. I'll likely post a video of when I mod mine whenever that eventually arrives. Using the separate amplifier board suggested to impedance match looks less straightforward though, but It'll be interesting to see what the performance is of the basic $30 setup compared to the DD V3.0. The 40Mhz Crystal/Oscillator I see is only like 27 cents on mouser, issue is just the fixed shipping, but basically a free item if you are ordering along with other things from Mouser.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the DD is set up to use 50 ohm cables and BNCs whereas most other BNCs used in video applications is 75 ohm, so that is a liiiiiitle annoying that it isn't 75 ohm as well.

I take it there isn't a mod that would allow the CX card to work with 75 ohm cable and BNCs? My guess is it would involve changing a resistor value somewhere, or does it not matter as long as the BNCs and cables are all kept the same?

It's DdD not DD.

Yeah low melt solder is noted in the wiki and in the comments, there will be an update video to that eventually.

(The crystal used is just a reference you can use virtually any 40Mhz fundamental this is noted in the wiki)

The 50/75Ohm situation doesn't really matter because the ADA4857 amplifier can be terminated however you want and also 1m or less cabling It doesn't make a real world difference.

The clockgen mod is this current standard rather than crystal replacement (unless you're only concerne is 8mm/Betamax NTSC or audioless EIAJ or somethin), purely for synchronisation with multiple cards and a standard baseband ADC this has been the standard for 2 years now.

(FLAC v1.5.0 made the compression situation a turnkey straight to archive situation, support has been directly integrated into MISRC capture aswell, the DdD app will get an update at some point)

If you're testing performance between the two they will be identical with an ADA amplifier It's decode which is actually doing the heavy lifting and the DdD only shines when you're doing laserdisc because of it's LPF filtering design which you can replicate with components for the CX Cards also.