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  1. Hello.
    After learning some valuable information here I am trying to learn how to actually transfer digital master to VHS and more importantly what should be the end specifications of a master file to retain best quality possible (yes, I know the end format is VHS, which is far from most people consider quality). So, best resolution, best compression (or no compression), chroma subsampling, etc. Audio is obviously LPCM.

    And I would like to avoind any kind of OSD messages, signs etc from computer interface, player interface, etc.
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  2. Dinosaur Supervisor KarMa's Avatar
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    I normally just burn to DVD, then record to tape. If you want the absolute best, that can cost a lot.
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  3. No compressed DVD. I can see the degradation when I record peoples' miniDVs to DVDs.
    I can afford, hit me with you best ideas. Best master file parameters and best device to input SSD, or memory card to send signal over S-Video to JVC ERA.

    Forgot to mention, PAL only!
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  4. You want something along the lines of a Blackmagic Intensity box. Make your digital file in the best quality you can -- ProRes, DNxHR -- then output s-video to your VHS deck.
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  5. Dinosaur Supervisor KarMa's Avatar
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    I can see the degradation when I record peoples' miniDVs to DVDs.
    That's a fairly separate issue, from DV having poor compression to begin with along with whatever MPEG2 settings you are using for your DVD. Are you saying that you don't like the way native DVD content looks, like a DVD Movie bought from the store? I've honestly never cared enough about sending a perfect video signal from my computer to a VCR, considering native DVD is overkill already. With VHS PAL having an approximate resolution of 200x567 Luma and ~40x567 Chroma. I usually care more about getting the VHS into a computer. So I don't have a list of what you should do to grab that extra 1% of perfection. Having a good VCR (S-VHS) with S-Video-In is probably going to need to be on your list.
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  6. Originally Posted by KarMa View Post
    I can see the degradation when I record peoples' miniDVs to DVDs.
    That's a fairly separate issue, from DV having poor compression to begin with along with whatever MPEG2 settings you are using for your DVD. Are you saying that you don't like the way native DVD content looks, like a DVD Movie bought from the store? I've honestly never cared enough about sending a perfect video signal from my computer to a VCR, considering native DVD is overkill already. With VHS PAL having an approximate resolution of 200x567 Luma and ~40x567 Chroma. I usually care more about getting the VHS into a computer. So I don't have a list of what you should do to grab that extra 1% of perfection. Having a good VCR (S-VHS) with S-Video-In is probably going to need to be on your list.
    Believe me when I say I see the cmopression on DVDs... DV is fairly uncompressed compared to DVD, I use highest quality setting to use maximum space of DVD, usually ~7800Mbps and the quality degradation compared to source material (DV for that matter) is fatal.

    ProRes it is then.

    I wonder if the A/V receiver I'm hunting might be a good option to use as coverter to be fed with HDMI signal and output S-Video.
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  7. You want to capture YUY2 (YUV 4:2:2 chroma subsampling) and save as uncompressed or with loss compression. But the real issue for VHS is the hardware before capturing. You need a S-VHS deck with a line time base corrector. And maybe a full frame TBC for bad tapes.
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  8. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    You want to capture YUY2 (YUV 4:2:2 chroma subsampling) and save as uncompressed or with loss compression. But the real issue for VHS is the hardware before capturing. You need a S-VHS deck with a line time base corrector. And maybe a full frame TBC for bad tapes.
    I do not want to capture, I want the reverse process.
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  9. Wait, because DVD quality out of miniDV is "fatal", you want to make VHS instead?
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  10. Originally Posted by _Al_ View Post
    Wait, because DVD quality out of miniDV is "fatal", you want to make VHS instead?
    Where did you get that idea from?

    I only stated that DVD quality is crap ans is not a suitable master for VHS recording. And I stated the observatio to ack this up that when comparing miniDV footage with resulting DVD transfer the DVD is visibly blah.
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  11. Without questioning the idea of taking digital material and putting it on VHS tape, the answer to your question is that the only thing which matters is the quality of your VHS deck.

    Better Deck = Better Results.

    The processing and the transfer to the deck doesn't matter much. You should certainly use the S-Video connection. You should obviously record audio using the Hi-Fi track.

    If you don't have a video output on your computer, then just put the video into any format that a media player can play, assuming that media player has an S-video output. The format really doesn't matter. Also, make sure to keep your video interlaced. If, for some reason, someone changed the video to progressive (or if the video was progressive) you should change it to interlaced using software because that is what the VHS medium requires.
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  12. I have the best deck possible ever released.
    I know to use S-video and i-Fi stereo from LPCM audio.

    Interlaced flag = noted. What about resolution, clearly 1440x1080i would be problematic since the interlacing is different than 576i. I do not have appropriate outputs on a laptop, this is why I am considering external players I can either connect to A/V receiver with S-video output to act as D/a converter, or use as already one piece of equpment to play file to VCR.
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  13. Originally Posted by SF01 View Post
    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    You want to capture YUY2 (YUV 4:2:2 chroma subsampling) and save as uncompressed or with loss compression. But the real issue for VHS is the hardware before capturing. You need a S-VHS deck with a line time base corrector. And maybe a full frame TBC for bad tapes.
    I do not want to capture, I want the reverse process.
    Sorry, I should have read more carefully. I'm just so used to seeing "what's the best way to capture VHS" threads around here.
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  14. Originally Posted by SF01 View Post
    Interlaced flag = noted.
    Just to make sure we are both talking about the same thing, interlacing requires that you do more than enable a flag. The video itself must actually be interlaced. This is an AVISynth script that will take SD progressive footage and convert it to interlaced by moving the odd field forward in time.

    Other people may be able to suggest a better approach.

    # This script converts 29.97 fps progressive footage
    # into 720x480 29.97 interlaced (NTSC SD) video

    loadplugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\MVTools\mvtools2.dll")

    SetMemoryMax(768)
    AVISource("e:\fs.avi")

    source=AssumeFPS(29.97, false) #change for PAL
    source_fields=source.separatefields()

    super_odd=MSuper(source_fields.selectodd(),pel=2)
    backward_vec_odd = MAnalyse(super_odd,blksize=8, overlap=2, isb = true, search=3, dct=0 )
    forward_vec_odd = MAnalyse(super_odd,blksize=8, overlap=2, isb = false, search=3, dct=0 )

    estimated_odd=MFlowFps(source_fields.selectodd(),s uper_odd,backward_vec_odd, forward_vec_odd, num=60000, den=1001, mask=2, ml=100)

    interleave (estimated_odd.selectodd(),source_fields.selecteve n())

    final=weave().assumebff() # Put fields back together into full frame of video

    return final.separatefields()

    #stackhorizontal(source,final)
    Originally Posted by SF01 View Post
    What about resolution, clearly 1440x1080i would be problematic since the interlacing is different than 576i.
    I'm not sure what you are asking. PAL VHS can only accept 720x576. Upscaling and then downscaling buys you nothing and therefore, unless the material is already 1440x1080i (non-square pixel HDV resolution) you should plan on rendering 720x576 to a thumb drive and then playing off that thumb drive in your media player, and from there, via the analog connections, into your VHS deck.
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  15. Dinosaur Supervisor KarMa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SF01 View Post
    I have the best deck possible ever released.
    I know to use S-video and i-Fi stereo from LPCM audio.
    Do you have it's model #, just curious.
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  16. Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
    Originally Posted by SF01 View Post
    What about resolution, clearly 1440x1080i would be problematic since the interlacing is different than 576i.
    I'm not sure what you are asking. PAL VHS can only accept 720x576. Upscaling and then downscaling buys you nothing and therefore, unless the material is already 1440x1080i (non-square pixel HDV resolution) you should plan on rendering 720x576 to a thumb drive and then playing off that thumb drive in your media player, and from there, via the analog connections, into your VHS deck.
    I shoot material in 16:9 full-frame HD, or better. The master is preffered to be of best quality, the output over S-video is sent out as interlaced SD, so the player / AV receover does the conversion already. I would rather use progressive segmented frame than true interlacing, as was done on film releases and blu-ray when frame rate didn't match specification (from what I know 1080p BD does not support 25p and 29,970p, they updated it though for UHD).

    Originally Posted by KarMa View Post
    Originally Posted by SF01 View Post
    I have the best deck possible ever released.
    I know to use S-video and i-Fi stereo from LPCM audio.
    Do you have it's model #, just curious.
    JVC HM-DR10000, not because it has D-VHS capabilities, I never used it, because without LPCM it's of no use, though I found that later in time after learning how to prepare a compliant file, which didn't work either way, because ffmpeg didn't care about bitrate limits I set and that happens everytime.
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  17. Dinosaur Supervisor KarMa's Avatar
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    How do you plan to put 16:9 material on VHS? You can crop it to 4:3, you can letterbox it, or VHS stretched to 16:9.
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  18. Originally Posted by KarMa View Post
    How do you plan to put 16:9 material on VHS? You can crop it to 4:3, you can letterbox it, or VHS stretched to 16:9.
    I said I shoot in full frame 16:9 1080p or higher, I didn't say yet that I plan to put widescreen material onto VHS. But if we're on this there are 3 options pan&scan, letterbox, or the exoticism of anamorphic, none are problematic. I am rather looking for a best device to transfer ready master file to tape (digital input from data storage device to analog output). The master file might be either ProRes 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, or maybe RAW, if I find device to play it without errors in real time.
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  19. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Quality master needs a TBC.
    Even digital devices outputting via analog can have bad signals.
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  20. Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Quality master needs a TBC.
    Even digital devices outputting via analog can have bad signals.
    I wil take this into consideration, so either built in, or external.
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  21. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SF01 View Post
    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Quality master needs a TBC.
    Even digital devices outputting via analog can have bad signals.
    I wil take this into consideration, so either built in, or external.
    Internal line TBC cleans the image.
    External framesync TBC cleans the signal.
    You need both.
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  22. So, to continue the thread, as I encountered a new problem.
    1. I still can't afford BlackMagic SSD player to play ProRes masters to SDI to analog converter, so I guess I will have to make DV masters and play them to VCR.
    2. NTSC to PAL, aside from temporal frame drop, what would be your opinion on converting 480 to 576, to upscale, or not to upscale and preserve the 480 resolution within 576 container padded at all sides with black bars?
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  23. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    480>576 isn't upscaling.
    Both are 4x3. So what you suggest your screw up AR.
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  24. Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    480>576 isn't upscaling.
    Both are 4x3. So what you suggest your screw up AR.
    If I convert lower resolution to fill up larger resolution frame, then it is upscaling, unless I miss some intricacies of english language.
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  25. Originally Posted by SF01 View Post
    2. NTSC to PAL, aside from temporal frame drop, what would be your opinion on converting 480 to 576, to upscale, or not to upscale and preserve the 480 resolution within 576 container padded at all sides with black bars?
    You can't just pad because PAL and NTSC have different PARs (PixelAspectRatios). So you have to resize the height to 576.
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  26. Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
    Originally Posted by SF01 View Post
    2. NTSC to PAL, aside from temporal frame drop, what would be your opinion on converting 480 to 576, to upscale, or not to upscale and preserve the 480 resolution within 576 container padded at all sides with black bars?
    You can't just pad because PAL and NTSC have different PARs (PixelAspectRatios). So you have to resize the height to 576.
    I think he's suggesting downscaling horizontally and padding the left and right sides as well as the top and bottom. What else could he mean by "padding at all sides with black bars."

    That said, I've never seen any NTSC->PAL conversion do that. They all upscale the 480 lines up to 576 lines, leaving the width the same.
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  27. Member DB83's Avatar
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    One should not question the rationale. But curiosity will always get the better of me.


    Could the OP be gracious enough to explain his motive in 'mastering'. Surely, even with a digital transfer, it is still VHS and he compromises his quality which he can never get back.
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  28. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
    Originally Posted by SF01 View Post
    2. NTSC to PAL, aside from temporal frame drop, what would be your opinion on converting 480 to 576, to upscale, or not to upscale and preserve the 480 resolution within 576 container padded at all sides with black bars?
    You can't just pad because PAL and NTSC have different PARs (PixelAspectRatios). So you have to resize the height to 576.
    I think he's suggesting downscaling horizontally and padding the left and right sides as well as the top and bottom. What else could he mean by "padding at all sides with black bars."

    That said, I've never seen any NTSC->PAL conversion do that. They all upscale the 480 lines up to 576 lines, leaving the width the same.
    Yes. Reasons I could see for horizontal shrinking with padding all sides would be to make a blurry or low-resolution source look sharper on TV (framed small picture rather than fullscreen), or concerns how to properly resize interlaced video vertically. As the OP's source seems to be VHS he won't be losing true resolution by the horizontal shrinking.
    A major issue would be to do the framerate conversion adequately, I think. That said, all PAL DVD players which I have seen will also play NTSC DVDs. There might be exceptions though, I don't know.
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  29. The sources will be various, sometimes 1080p concerts I've shot, sometimes bootleg DVDs from trading, the latter are predominantly in NTSC unfortunately and part of them come from european concerts, that were shot in PAL and converted to NTSC for trading.
    By mastering VHS I meant to record a 1st gen VHS tape from a digital source.
    And yes, by padding the NTSC video inside PAL frame I meant to preserve the 480 resolution so as not to introduce upscaling artifacts in interlaced video, I am aware that this was probably never used, and everyone just upscaled NTSC video from US TV to air in PAL territoties. The Sample Aspect Ratio is automaticaly adjusted in Vegas, so if I disable the stretching video to match project frame size it should be properly stretched, but not upscaled, preserving field lines in PAL field lines, unless it does too much with frame droping, or blending, which is why I always disable resampling. I need to ship myself the tapes I left at home and the last part would be to figure out how to transfer DV video from PC back to DV tape, as it's the only way I can think of with my current gear to the transfer to VHS. It's not about quality, it's about just having the VHS, I have a sentiment, that's all. Scenalyzer has problems recording back to tape, I get a still frame, Vegas has problems too, when the DV is on the timeline, it still gives me the message, that 98% of the file needs to be converted.
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  30. I am curious If OP has D VHS machine why not record in 1920x180 on DVHS tapes and preserve the original resolution or record digital in SD resolution which will give him fever compression artifacts than DVD why downgrading to VHS if master is played on the same D VHS machine unless is for wide spread use on regular VHS machines which in 2020 is totally obsolete
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