DVD-Audio burning program - lossless & dual layer

[efc1978]

Hello,
I’ve been using Cirlinca DVD-Audio solo (I think the original and cheapest version) for the past 10 years to archive music losslessly as DVD-Audio onto DVD discs, it’s worked perfectly until recently I’ve been trying to burn a bunch of 24/96 .WAV files onto Verbatim DVD+RDL (dual layer) discs and I’m getting some pauses and problems playing after the position believe the layer break would be at.
So I’m wondering if people could please recommend another program I could use to burn 24/96 .WAV’s to dual layer DVD keeping lossless, which would also handle layer break? I want to stress it’s important to keep the 24/96 files lossless.
Cirlinca DVD Audio Solo was so easy to use, I particularly liked how you could just put the DVD-Audio disc you made into your drive and rip each individual track/file straight back to your hard drive as .WAV completely unchanged from the original file you burned!, are there any other programs to do this?
Thanks in advance for any help.

[El Heggunte]

If I were you, I would let ImgBurn record the .ISO file generated by Cirlinca's DVD-Audio software.

So far I have used only Disc Welder Chrome (and the freeware dvda-author as well), but I've never trusted the authoring program to write to an optical disc — regarding DWC especifically, I extracted the contents from the first ISO and then used mkisofs for generating a proper DVD-Audio .ISO.

[efc1978]

Hi,
That sounds like a very good idea to me, but I’m not very technical when it comes to this....
How do I get the .ISO file the Cirlinca program uses?

[El Heggunte]

How do I get the .ISO file the Cirlinca program uses?

I have never used Cirlinca, so I dont' know

From what I've read so far, the program generates only uncompressed audio, not MLP streams, and in this case, you may apply dvda-author on the .WAV files for creating the DVD-Audio files (.IFOs, .BUPs and .AOBs) and then call mkisofs for generating the ISO image.

Notice, both dvda-author and mkisofs are command-line applications. According to http://dvd-audio.sourceforge.net/ , now there is a GUI for dvda-author, but I've never used it... The last version that I downloaded and tested is several years old

[efc1978]

Well if you don’t know what to do I certainly don’t!
Think I might need some other suggestions!
Thanks

[DB83]

You should never bite the hand if some helps, or tries to help you.

A quick Google took me to download page of a trial version of this program.

http://dvd-audio-solo.findmysoft.com/

Includes this text.

"When exporting your DVD, you can choose to include the audio or video track or both. You may also write the data directly on a disc or save it as an ISO image."

So rather than burn straight to disk, look a the export option (wherever that is).

I assume you actually have a dvd-audio player (a basic drive does not handle audio-dvds AFAIK). Else why create these disks when you can simply archive the original WAV as data on the disk. No need to rip it back then.

Unless these disks are not audio-dvd but dvd-video with just an audio track.

[efc1978]

OK turns out my version of Cirlinca does write a FLAC folder on hard drive to .ISO on hard drive.
It's a button called "save only" which doesn't say anything about what it does or what type of file it saves as, can easily be overlooked!
I've written a FLAC folder to ISO then used IMG Burn to burn and then ripped the DVD-Audio disc to my HD, as well as ripped a DVD-Audio discs I burned the same files straight to DVD using Cirlinca, I created an .MD5 checksum for the songs off both discs and they're identical, so seems this works!
However when burning the ISO file it did not need to be burned to a dual layer DVD, even though when loading the FLAC files into Cirlinca it says it can't fit on a single layer disc as it's a mere 55MB too big!
I think the whole folder as FLACS was 2.59GB, and as WAV 4.16GB, which should fit on a single layer DVD-R but I guess the rest of the space is filled by "info" or something like that when Cirlinca burns DVD-Audio?, the ISO file Cirlinca created is 4.26GB, and IMG Burn burned it to a single layer disc, I don't understand technically what's happening but I'm sure everything is OK and there's no problem.... Ironic it burned to a single layer DVD considering the actual problem I was having was the disc not playing properly seemingly after where the layer break would be on the dual layer disc it insisted it had to write onto to have enough space!
Thanks for your suggestions/help!

[DB83]

Ok. Both 4.16 GB and 4.26 GB are marginal when burning to a single layer disk - think the capacity is 4.30 gb (ignore the fact that a disk should hold 4.7 gb since it ultimately depends on how the authoring or burning program reports the capacity (one gb being 1000 mb or 1024 mb)

Yet you have glossed over, even ignored, my earlier remarks as to whether this disk is audio-dvd or video-dvd with just an audio track.

I can not see how a 2.59 gb FLAC folder (which should be uncompressed audio) results in a 4.16 gb WAV. Both should be pretty close subject to any menu created by the authoring program.

I also can not see how any program can rip an audio-dvd but then that program might even if the actual drive will not play that disk.

You might actually do this community a service by reviewing the folders on the disk through Windows Explorer and confirm which folder on the disk the files reside and list the files.

[Cornucopia]

FLAC is not uncompressed, it's compressed losslessly, so 2.95GB is about right compared to 4.16GB for uncompressed WAV. However, FLAC is no good for true, authored DVD-Audio, which only allows for Uncompressed LPCM (similar to WAV, but is probably MSB instead of LSB), or MLP (a-la Dolby TrueHD). FLAC can be added to a [ROM] or [OTHER] section, but would not be playable by a DVD-Audio or DVD-Universal player, only by PC/Mac or generic media player app that supports flac type. FLAC files should NEVER be put inside either the VIDEO_TS or the AUDIO_TS folders - only legit authored assets should go in there.

Also, if you've got the WAVs as sources, FLACs of the same titles are superfluous/redundant.

Scott

[DB83]

Scott,

I stand corrected about FLAC.

Yet I am still curious as to what disk the OP has created and how it can be read from a PC drive.

[Cornucopia]

Me too.

[efc1978]

You really do need to settle down with the insinuations you are throwing around.
Bite the hand that helps me?, I have no idea how you even came up with that idea... And glossed over or even ignored your remarks?, I simply had totally forgotten you had asked me if I was burning DVD-Audio, afterall I had already asked about burning DVD-Audio, and as I said in my last post I have resolved the problem.

For your info, FLAC will most certainly make .WAV that much smaller. For example I have these folders on my HD with about 20 songs in each folder, the following are the folders as .WAV then compressed to lossless FLAC using dBPoweramp compression level 6.
3.86GB = 2.38GB
4.16GB = 2.59GB
4.31GB = 2.72GB
4.33GB = 2.73GB
4.36GB = 2.78GB
You can convert those .WAV's to FLAC and back to WAV, repeat however many times you like, load the last .WAV into EAC (Exact Audio Copy) Wave Compare and the samples will be the same as the first .WAV.
Yes my DVD player Cambridge DVD99 plays real 'DVD-Audio'
https://www.hifiplus.com/articles/cambridge-audio-dvd99-universal-player/
And yes Cirlinca DVD-Audio Solo 1.6.3 burns real DVD-Audio discs.
I have attached a screenshot of the folders/files you see when you put a DVD in my laptop that has been burned.
When you put your burned DVD-Audio disc in your laptop/PC you can open it with Cirlinca DVD-Audio Solo 1.6.3, on a screen you see all the song/track names you've previously burned onto the disc, you simply highlight which songs you'de like to save back to your hard drive and press the button and they will save back to your HD as .WAV files, if you use EAC WAV Compare to compare the original non-burned file with the file you ripped off the disc samples will be the same, it doesn't matter if the original files are FLAC or WAV when you burn them, they are the same when you rip them back off the disc.
Hope you've found some interesting info....

[DB83]

Calm down. Everyone can forget. I was curious since many a program can create a dvd that plays just audio with a menu.

Thank you for that screen-shot. Whilst I confess not having precise knowledge of the folder structure of a Audio-Dvd, I would have expected just to see a Audio_TS folder and a Video_TS folder.

Any extra folders can only be read by a PC-drive and I suggest that it is the data folder that your program is reading to return the info you describe.

I will pass on you comment about the ripped files being 'the same' as the original whether they are FLAC or WAV.

[Cornucopia]

To be clear, when I said "flac is no good for DVD-Audio", this refers to using flac files directly on the disc. You can, if you wish and your authoring/encoding app (Cirlinca?) supports it, use flac as your asset source to import into authoring. What comes OUT of authoring apps would only be the compiled, authored, converted assets, which would then be the LPCM or MLP formats, encapsulated in the AOB files, as shown by your screenshot.
And again, if you want to add flac as data files to an "other" folder on the disc (via ImgBurn build, etc), that's your perogative, though it would be redundant given the existence of the required AOB files. But maybe you have a playback chain where you need dual capability, so...
Assuming complete error correction is utilized, multiple round-trips of WAV/LPCM <-> MLP/FLAC should be bit perfect identical. So should the DVD-Audio's AOBs, should you rip them (with DVD-Audio Extractor, etc). That is of course assuming you aren't using the lossy codec options in your DVD-Audio title (personally doesn't make sense to use except for DVD-Video compatibility, but then that would be in the VIDEO_TS area for universality).

Scott

[DB83]

From what I read, Cirlinca will not encode as MLP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-Audio

Surely then ripping the data from the disk goes from uncompressed (but possibly encoded from a lossless source) back to lossless (but still compressed).

I fail to see the benefit of doing this. The source was lossless so surely it would be better to archive that direct to a data disk so no possible re-encoding is then done.

By all means author as Audio-Dvd but just as a playback medium. I notice that the video-ts folder was not expanded. Did that program also write the compatablity vobs in there ?

[efc1978]

I'm sure it's lossless, otherwise when loading .WAV files ripped off the DVD-Audio to hard drive and compared with the original .WAV's that were used to burn to the disc the program EAC (Exact Audio Copy) Wav Compare would not show samples were the same...
The VIDEO_TS folder is empty.

[DB83]

I will sound pedantic but you are using the wrong terminology.

Your original WAV and the one ripped from the dvd-audio are identical because both are uncompressed. Lossless refers to a compressed format that can be edited and saved with the same codec without any further loss in quality.

If your authoring program could take FLAC as a source it would have to re-encode. Rip that disk and compare to the original FLAC and the comparison is not identical. Convert the ripped WAV back to FLAC and it is possible that the comparison is true.

[efc1978]

Hi,
Seems the issue is NOT with the Cirlinca DVD-Audio burning program, as I now have the same issues with DVD-Video I've made with Audio Muxer and ImgBurn.
I have a 10 year old Cambridge DVD99 player, guess I've used it about 4 hours a week for 10 years...
I usually play 16bit/44.1 DVD-Audio or DVD-Video with just audio and blank screen.
I've been having problems lately with DVD+RDL dual layer discs that have 24bit/96 audio. (although does it with setting to output at 24/48).
Certain spots on a bunch of discs pause or have a silent second when playing (not near layer break), also some spots the audio freezes and my player makes what I would describe almost like a grinding sound, this seems to happen at layer break but also has done it just 5-10 minutes into a disc nowhere near layer break...
The same problems happen at the same spots even when I take the disc out and put it back in, switch the player off and back on etc.
I thought it was originally the Cirlinca program doing layer break wrong - the reason I started this thread on this message board! - but it seems now it has to be my player...
I've cleaned the laser today with rubbing alcohol and cotton bud and didn't fix it.
Any idea if it seems like a 'laser' problem in my player or more 'electronics' ? on eBay I can buy a supposedly brand new laser for just $25, but don't want to buy it if it's going to be an 'electronics' problem...
I could buy a whole new player, or use my Blu-ray player but I've always found this player has very nice sound.....

[efc1978]

What you see in the video is me pressing skip every few seconds to progress to the next track, then the 5th track in the video at 11 seconds would be the first track after the layer break and you can hear the buzzing sound, does that give any idea what the issue is?
This is happening with a bunch of DVD+RDL 24bit/96 discs I’ve burned this week, both DVD-Audio and DVD-Video.
Here’s the video I just put on my You Tube:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xUZ3dovQYok

[DB83]

It could be the player, your blank media, even a combination of both.

Players can have a low tolerance to burnt media and if your laser is now ageing it could well miss tracks.

As for the media itself, not sure if you have already mentioned the brand etc. you use.

[efc1978]

I’ve been using Verbatim DVD+RDL for 15 years, never had these problems before and it’s happening with discs bought in 4 different packets of 5 discs...
I don’t usually burn 24/96, mostly 16/44.1 and sometimes 24/48 and never had a problem, I doubt the problem has anything to do with them being 24/96?
So seems has to be something to do with the player, when you say player do you mean laser specifically?, it would be much more likely to be a laser issue rather than electronics wouldn’t it? - maybe I should buy the supposedly “brand new” laser on eBay?

[DB83]

That's what I said. Second paragraph.

And if these burnt disks play fine in your burner (might not have audio-dvd support tho) then that is the root issue.

BTW dvd-video is not 44.1 khz

[efc1978]

Yeah I know DVD has to be 48000+
Many DVD-Audio discs are 16 / 44.1 though, they’re basically a
bunch of CD’s burned onto DVD as DVD-Audio.

[YuriVLD]

DVD player Cambridge DVD99

Please, tell me, what's the best sound quality format for this player?
I want to use the USB-Flash drive.
I try MP3 - 320Kbit, and OGG (only on 5 level compression).