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  1. Member dellsam34's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by medeamajic View Post
    The problem with this forum is that the anal folks need to accept not everyone is trying to restore a bad VHS tape or upscale VHS to 1080P (I would not do it myself). A lot of people who have HI-8 or VHS tapes with a decent white balance and decent lighting want a simple solution with decent quality. They know some of the video capture devices loose audio sync, have aspect ratio problems and even bad video quality. The DV converters can avoid all of that an are easy to use. I demonstrated the problem with using a cheap USB capture card. DV-25 is not the best video codec but if it is good enough for broadcast it should be good enough for most people. If someone stated I want the best quality possible because I want to upscale HI-8 to 1920X1080 then the DV converter might not be a good choice. Do you kind of see my point?
    Analog video especially home videos are really bad to begin with, Capturing in the most lossless way doesn't mean improving the quality of the video, It just means to stay as close as possible to the source's quality, In addition if someone wants to do editing or video restoration it is better to do it from a non lossy raw footage. Not from DV, MPEG2, MPEG4 or any lossy compression scheme for that matter (in other words two wrongs doesn't make right)

    DV is not the most friendly in 2019, It use to be, But not anymore. With the majority of the market is PC not Mac and the majority of PC market is laptops, all in ones and tablets getting an ancient DV device to work now is as problematic as getting a USB capture device to work on Windows 10.

    That's what the "anal folks" trying to explain to you.
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    Originally Posted by JPMedia View Post
    Originally Posted by medeamajic View Post
    DV-25 is not the best video codec but if it is good enough for broadcast it should be good enough for most people. If someone stated I want the best quality possible because I want to upscale HI-8 to 1920X1080 then the DV converter might not be a good choice. Do you kind of see my point?
    "I like DV Codecs. They're comfy and easy to use!"

    Is there a section of the forum where users who settle for less can go to tell newcomers that inferior methods are "good enough?"

    As I stated in a prior post upscale HI-8 or VHS to 1080 and let us see the image quality. Do a demonstration video so people can see the process and decide if it is worth the time and effort. I am asking for a simple demonstration. In any other discussion forum several people would have done it by now.
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  3. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by medeamajic View Post
    In any other discussion forum several people would have done it by now.
    Right.
    You make demands, and people just fall all over themselves to comply.
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    You
    DV converters are not magic boxes.
    - You can setup software wrong, hence get wrong aspect ratio, etc.
    - 4:1:1 is already arguably bad quality, losing 50%+ of the color data.
    - DV boxes can lose sync, all capture cards can. (That "audio lock" is pure marketing that is nonsensical jabberwocky technobabble. "Audio lock" is indeed a jargon term, and existing in the realm of DV, but it means something completely different than what Canopus claims. I've written on this many times, and at least one VH post from the past 3 years extensively explained this, search for it, read it.)
    I have never lost sync with a DV converter. If that were the case why would I have bought three of them? Not all of them are from Canopus. I admit I bought them for playback more than capture. You cannot do that with a cheap USB capture card. Having said that if by some miracle any of my DV converters lost sync your awesome ATI AIW would do the same.

    People bought VHS camcorders from Best Buy dude not Betacams. They are not worried about the highest quality are they? A lot of people just want to upload to social media or burn to DVD to share with friends and family.

    You claim to be a professional yet I have asked you several times for a simple image or a video of your equipment. You have refused. I should not need to ask for pictures or videos of your equipment. You should have an image of your editing suite an image of you storefront on your website as well as an image of yourself but you don't. Seems a little shady to me. Are you operating out of your basement? I obviously don't give the same credibility that others do. I doubt you ever had the equipment to capture 3/4" or Betacam tapes but you could prove me wrong. Have you ever done anything for broadcast?


    you
    Not mentioned is also how much of a PITA DV is in 2019, since Firewire is a legacy connection (that was never really popular, I might add). If you have to build a legacy system for video, then DV is not the best option. If you insist on using a modern computer, especially a laptop, DV is probably not an option at all. There are ways to add Firewire to some modern/recent desktops, but the driver/software half of the equation is sometimes still a PITA.
    Fire Wire was very popular. Even the high end Audio Interfaces from MOTU, Echo Electronics, Avid and Presonus used Fire Wire. HDV cameras used Fire Wire. Fire Wire hard drives had better throughput than the USB hard drives that were sold at the time and the Fire Wire hard drives used less CPU overhead. As USB 3 came to market Fire Wire had been replace by Thunderbolt which was better than USB. You don't have to build a legacy system for Fire Wire. Fire Wire is compatible with Thunderbolt 1,2 and 3. Having said that not only do the DV converters not need a driver but the PCI and PCIE IEEE Fire Wire cards require no driver. There is never a driver disk with any Fire Wire cards PCI or PCIE. It truly is plug and play for Windows 2000 up to Windows 10.



    you
    DV (MiniDV, DV25) is not, and has never been, used for broadcast. Yes, perhaps a low-budged infomercial or commercial used it, but who here is wanting "infomercial quality" on anything? And that's not really want I'd consider "broadcast", since those are paid spots. Broadcasters would probably run a test pattern for an hour, if paid handsomely for it.
    You are admitting Mini DV-25 has been used for commercial and infomercial because I told you that. I know people who did it. Having said that I have never stated anyone is looking to do an infomercial in these forums. I am saying if it is good enough for broadcast and people payed small production companies thousands of dollars to create the commercial and the client is happy with the commercial then DV-25 cannot be all that bad. I am not saying it is the best but most people will be happy with the quality. On a side note DV converters ave been use in broadcast facilities but I have never seen an ATI AIW used in a broadcast facility.


    You
    Upscaling SD to HD is not the best quality. The deinterlace alone poses issues and challenges.
    Have you been asked to do that? Can your company do that? Why would you have to de-interlace if they want the final product on Blu-ray?
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    DV is not the most friendly in 2019, It use to be, But not anymore. With the majority of the market is PC not Mac and the majority of PC market is laptops, all in ones and tablets getting an ancient DV device to work now is as problematic as getting a USB capture device to work on Windows 10.

    That's what the "anal folks" trying to explain to you.
    Thunderbolt is compatible with Fire Wire. I demonstrated this in my video. Intel has recently stated they want to get rid of the licensing of Thunderbolt allowing AMD to get in the game and make Thunderbolt more popular. Sounds good to me! Will it happen? Who knows for sure?
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Originally Posted by medeamajic View Post
    In any other discussion forum several people would have done it by now.
    Right.
    You make demands, and people just fall all over themselves to comply.
    They are usually happy to do a quick demonstration. People did it all the time in the old Canopus forums and several others forums.
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  7. Member dellsam34's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by medeamajic View Post
    People bought VHS camcorders from Best Buy dude not Betacams. They are not worried about the highest quality are they? A lot of people just want to upload to social media or burn to DVD to share with friends and family.
    That's where you're wrong, People who want that they just go pay someone to do it for them. People who come here they want to learn to do it in the best way possible and your duty if you claim you're knowledgeable is to show them options. But instead you want everyone to believe that DV is the best because it's easy, That's how you're wrong.
    Last edited by dellsam34; 30th Mar 2019 at 13:27. Reason: irrelevant
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  8. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by medeamajic View Post
    prove me wrong.
    Such a childish attitude --- and I've already shown where many of your statements are false. For example:

    PCI and PCIE IEEE Fire Wire cards require no driver.
    Nonsense.

    You are admitting Mini DV-25 has been used for commercial and infomercial because I told you that.
    You told me nothing. You kept saying "broadcast", but broadcast to most people isn't the crap (that almost nobody watches) in the wee hours of the morning. That's off-peak paid programming. Not really "broadcast".

    if it is good enough for ... then DV-25 cannot be all that bad.
    My cat likes cat food. If it's good enough for her, then it's good enough for me? Really? That's the logic here? In actuality, perhaps she doesn't have high expectations, maybe even a limited taste palette. See the analogy? Yes, DV is the cat food of video.

    Have you been asked to do that?
    Yes, many times, and after explaining to the person why it's a terrible idea, they opt for SD conversion of the SD material.

    Why would you have to de-interlace if they want the final product on Blu-ray?
    Statement like that prove to me that your video knowledge is limited. BD supports SD MPEG @ 15mbps, and looks quite excellent.
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 30th Mar 2019 at 15:55.
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    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    Originally Posted by medeamajic View Post
    People bought VHS camcorders from Best Buy dude not Betacams. They are not worried about the highest quality are they? A lot of people just want to upload to social media or burn to DVD to share with friends and family.
    That's where you're wrong, People who want that they just go pay someone to do it for them. People who come here they want to learn to do it in the best way possible and your duty if you claim you're knowledgeable is to show them options. But instead you want everyone to believe that DV is the best because it's easy, That's how you're wrong.

    I think there is major confusion in these forums right now. I never said the DV codec is the best because it is easy to use. There is a big difference between a DV converter (which is hardware) and the DV-25 video codec. I am not suggesting people use the DV codec if they want the best quality. If you have a USB device h.264 would be a better option for some people but other people might want uncompressed depending on the task at hand.

    Having said that a lot of people in these foums have simply asked for help and also asked what device will work. Not everyone is asking for the best possible quality that money can buy. Some have even said they don't need the best quality. The anal people here then insist their method must be used and insist the Canopus ADVC 110 is a horrible product. If someone wanted to capture VHS or HI-8 and make a DVD the DV converts will work just fine for that.

    I have asked everyone to stop with the strawman arguments but they keep coming. Why is that?

    The only argument moving forward is to disprove that DV converters are not reliable or demonstrate that DV converters are hard to use. Can anyone do that?

    If DV converters a reliable (not hit or miss) have decent quality and are easy to use then why are we still arguing? The DV converters have worked just fine for a lot of people.
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    me
    PCI and PCIE IEEE Fire Wire cards require no driver.
    you
    Nonsense.
    IEEE FIRE WIRE is built in the OS. Having said that do you install USB 2.0 drivers? No you don't because it is in the OS. With Windows Vista you had to install USB 3.0 drivers but Windows 10 has it built in the OS.



    me
    You are admitting Mini DV-25 has been used for commercial and infomercial because I told you that.
    you
    You told me nothing. You kept saying "broadcast", but broadcast to most people isn't the crap (that almost nobody watches) in the wee hours of the morning. That's off-peak paid programming. Not really "broadcast".
    For the record they were commercials and infomercials. Some played at peak hours. To ad insult to injury these people would post links to their website with sample clips and images of their studio and store front. Their demo reals and websites were much more impressive than anything I have seen from you thus far. Why do you think that is?



    me
    if it is good enough for ... then DV-25 cannot be all that bad.
    you
    My cat likes cat food. If it's good enough for her, then it's good enough for me? Really? That's the logic here? In actuality, perhaps she doesn't have high expectations, maybe even a limited taste palette. See the analogy? Yes, DV is the cat food of video.
    That is a horrible analogy because your cat isn't a professional chef. The people that make the rules and regulations for broadcast are professionals.

    If you thought your analogy was good that says a lot about your thought process. Perhaps you will be man enough to admit the analogy you thought was so good was in fact very horrible.



    me
    Have you been asked to do that?
    you
    Yes, many times, and after explaining to the person why it's a terrible idea, they opt for SD conversion of the SD material.
    It is not a good idea upscale 230%. If I have to mix SD with HD I drop the SD video in the HD timeline but I don't scale up 230% to fill the screen.



    me
    Why would you have to de-interlace if they want the final product on Blu-ray?
    you
    Statement like that prove to me that your video knowledge is limited. BD supports SD MPEG @ 15mbps, and looks quite excellent
    What does MPEG 2 have to do with de-interlacing? I have not done VHS or HI-8 to Blu-ray but I have done Digital-8 to Blue-ray. The end result was an interlace 1080i blu-ray disk. Why would I opt for 1080P or 720P? You do know that interlaced video will look very different on a broadcast compliant monitor than a computer monitor? If the answer is yes then then what do you use for previewing your work? Your website say you cannot accept Digital-8. Why not? I can and I have.
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  11. Member dellsam34's Avatar
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    No. DV is not good for DVD, IF DVD is the target capture MPEG-2 with PCI or USB. You are doing double butcher that way.
    Previewing the work has no effect on the quality of the video, The quality of the capture hardware what determines the quality of the capture, Having a monitor is not really a big deal. If the monitor is hiding the defects that means you are not seeing what you are capturing.
    Last edited by dellsam34; 30th Mar 2019 at 19:29. Reason: Added info
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    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    No. DV is not good for DVD, IF DVD is the target capture MPEG-2 with PCI or USB. You are doing double butcher that way.
    Previewing the work has no effect on the quality of the video, The quality of the capture hardware what determines the quality of the capture, Having a monitor is not really a big deal. If the monitor is hiding the defects that means you are not seeing what you are capturing.
    I think you are confused. I am not talking about using a broadcast monitor for capturing video although it does not hurt if the client is in the room. I am also not suggestion having an external monitor will improve the quality of the video capture card. Using a broadcast complaint monitor while editing is a big deal especially when editing interlaced video with motion graphics. Interlaced video never looks that great on a computer monitor and motion graphics are even worse. Having said that what defects would be hidden during capture or playback using a broadcast compliant monitor? If your goal is to output to DVD or playback over the airwaves using the computer monitor is not the best option. DV-25 works just fine for editing and outputting to DVD. MPEG-2 can work as well as H.264. MJPEG DV-50, Pro Res etc.
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    Your lack of video knowledge makes you use the word "Just fine" a lot. Professionals -if you claim to being one- don't use that term at all, and most importantly they never do convert analog video to DV and convert it again to DVD. You seem to enjoy arguing, I don't. so goodbye.
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    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    Your lack of video knowledge makes you use the word "Just fine" a lot. Professionals -if you claim to being one- don't use that term at all, and most importantly they never do convert analog video to DV and convert it again to DVD. You seem to enjoy arguing, I don't. so goodbye.
    I have used my ADVC 110, DAC-100 and and ADS AV Pyro Link many times to convert analogue tapes to DV-25 (edit the tape) and then burn a DVD for the client. When I burn to DVD the peoples hair actually looks like hair not rabbit fur. Having said that people can decide for themselves if my information is correct or not but millions of people have edit DV video and then later burned it to a DVD. I will say taking a Mini DV camera and simply transferring the digital tape to the computer using the Fire Wire port will have a very clean image. It is best to just edit those DV video clips as is and then burn it to DVD. There would be no need to take the analogue S-Video out from a DV cam and connect it to a USB capture card. DV cameras do not need a capture card. That is why they were so convenient. They also had much better quality than VHS or Hi-8. DV to DVD just works.
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    Originally Posted by medeamajic View Post
    They also had much better quality than ... Hi-8.
    This is debatable.
    The quality of the camera makes the difference here, not the recording format. I've seen both exquisite Hi8, and really crappy DV.

    And again, shooting isn't conversion.
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 31st Mar 2019 at 13:36.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Originally Posted by medeamajic View Post
    They also had much better quality than ... Hi-8.
    This is debatable.
    The quality of the camera makes the difference here, not the recording format. I've seen both exquisite Hi8, and really crappy DV.

    And again, shooting isn't conversion.
    I agree. The camera is important. Hi-8 can look better than DV-25 if you compare a $2,800.00 Hi-8 camcorder with a quality lens, gen-lock, XLR and BNC connectors to a $500.00 DV camcorder from Best Buy. If you compare a $2,800.00 dollar DV camera with a $2,800.00 Hi-8 camera both will look good on a SD monitor but the DV camera will have higher resolution and not require a capture card. If you had to output to Blu-ray at 1080i the high-end DV camera will have an advantage.
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