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  1. Member
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    Let's settle this once for all, cast your votes.
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  2. Member hech54's Avatar
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    Soy Sauce!!!
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    Originally Posted by kodec View Post
    Let's settle this once for all, cast your votes.
    I think I've made this clear many times, and have not wavered whatsoever in the past 20 years.

    NORM/AUTO (the settings name changes based on Calibration being ON/OFF), is a mild DNR applied by JVC decks. It significantly reduces chroma noise, which is the misty red/blue muck you see in medium and darks of the image. That alone makes it worthwhile. However it also suppresses true errant grain noise, which many confuse with "detail".

    EDIT fully disables the DNR.

    But the main disagreement between DNR vs. NO DNR fans stems from the fact that the DNR differs from model to model of JVC, and from unit to unit. The unit-to-unit difference is cause by the wear and age of the deck, especially the heads.

    The tape content, and how it was recorded, can be a factor.

    So ... it depends.
    NORM should be used more than not, with EDIT being used only when there is drastic issues.
    The same is true of the TBC, use as much as possible.

    To me, to not use the DNR is to not fully take advantage of the quality VCR. So why even bother with a high-end VCR if you're just going to turn off all the goodies?

    And I'm not entirely sure this post should be at VH, seeing as sanlyn is at digitalFAQ and not here.

    Originally Posted by hech54 View Post
    Soy Sauce!!!
    No, Duck Sauce.
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 29th Nov 2018 at 07:44.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Originally Posted by kodec View Post
    Let's settle this once for all, cast your votes.
    I think I've made this clear many times, and have not wavered whatsoever in the past 20 years.

    NORM/AUTO (the settings name changes based on Calibration being ON/OFF), is a mild DNR applied by JVC decks. It significantly reduces chroma noise, which is the misty red/blue muck you see in medium and darks of the image. That alone makes it worthwhile. However it also suppresses true errant grain noise, which many confuse with "detail".

    EDIT fully disables the DNR.

    But the main disagreement between DNR vs. NO DNR fans stems from the fact that the DNR differs from model to model of JVC, and from unit to unit. The unit-to-unit difference is cause by the wear and age of the deck, especially the heads.

    The tape content, and how it was recorded, can be a factor.

    So ... it depends.
    NORM should be used more than not, with EDIT being used only when there is drastic issues.
    The same is true of the TBC, use as much as possible.

    To me, to not use the DNR is to not fully take advantage of the quality VCR. So why even bother with a high-end VCR if you're just going to turn off all the goodies?

    And I'm not entirely sure this post should be at VH, seeing as sanlyn is at digitalFAQ and not here.

    Originally Posted by hech54 View Post
    Soy Sauce!!!
    No, Duck Sauce.
    I've a Panasonic deck with the option to separate the TBC from the DNR, which JVC decks usually don't provide AFAIK. What do you reckon of that option to separate it? I'll later tell my experience on everything just interested in what you guys think cause I respect your opinion.
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  5. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Which Panasonic model do you have?

    Panasonics still apply some DNR while TBC is enabled, as did the JVC (TBC+DNR). So, technically, the JVC was separate DNR as well.

    The issue with Panasonic is that it oversharpens by default, which has further muddied the idea of detail and sharpness. Lots of people have gotten their understandings of what should and should not be present in a VHS video signal by comparing performance between VCRs. And the perceived best VCR is considered how VHS should look. But it's not the case. All VCRs have some positives and negatives, and it again varies based on the content and how the tape was made. So you can never say A is better than B, because it will never be a true statement at all times. There are no absolutes in analog video, only majorities and minorities.

    VHS was chaos on a tape. Different VCRs sort that chaos differently. Same for every device in a workflow chain. The goal is to get the best equipment possible so that everything else is a nitpick. When we're quibbling over things like detail, we're usually in a good place. The worst was overcome, be it tracking or timing.

    Remember: I own/use both Panasonic and JVC, and change settings as needed. But, in general, JVC while on NORM/AUTO gives the cleanest and best image.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Which Panasonic model do you have?

    Panasonics still apply some DNR while TBC is enabled, as did the JVC (TBC+DNR). So, technically, the JVC was separate DNR as well.

    The issue with Panasonic is that it oversharpens by default, which has further muddied the idea of detail and sharpness. Lots of people have gotten their understandings of what should and should not be present in a VHS video signal by comparing performance between VCRs. And the perceived best VCR is considered how VHS should look. But it's not the case. All VCRs have some positives and negatives, and it again varies based on the content and how the tape was made. So you can never say A is better than B, because it will never be a true statement at all times. There are no absolutes in analog video, only majorities and minorities.

    VHS was chaos on a tape. Different VCRs sort that chaos differently. Same for every device in a workflow chain. The goal is to get the best equipment possible so that everything else is a nitpick. When we're quibbling over things like detail, we're usually in a good place. The worst was overcome, be it tracking or timing.

    Remember: I own/use both Panasonic and JVC, and change settings as needed. But, in general, JVC while on NORM/AUTO gives the cleanest and best image.
    NS 860, it has independent switches for TBC and DNR. I agree with you, for my eyes JVC (JVC 8700, same functions as 9700 only no Dynamic Drum) gives a bit cleaner pic. But Panasonic is more robust, the build and the mechanism for tape input/eject is exceptional, twice better than the JVC. One needs to have both.

    As for the EDIT vs NORM, I'd say that the NORM looks better to my eyes in the sense that eliminates the noise better, but I can understand why some folks prefer the EDIT mode in order to manually deal with the capture later. Again, not ruling out anything.
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  7. Member DB83's Avatar
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    What a stupid topic.

    Thanks to ls for actually explaining what the OP is barking about. Which he failed to do miserably.

    And my vote goes for Pepper Sauce
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    What a stupid topic.

    Thanks to ls for actually explaining what the OP is barking about. Which he failed to do miserably.

    And my vote goes for Pepper Sauce
    Its strange for a ba fan to be so surgically removed from humour
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  9. I have the NV-HS860 myself (is that what you meant to write?) and always keep the TBC on and the noise reduction off. I prefer to do my noise reduction later in AviSynth.
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  10. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Wabbit Season!

    Scott
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    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    I have the NV-HS860 myself (is that what you meant to write?) and always keep the TBC on and the noise reduction off. I prefer to do my noise reduction later in AviSynth.

    Hi manono, yes that's the one I have. And what do you think of its picture mode? I think I prefer the auto.
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  12. I haven't used it in about a year. I'm in the US and bought it to handle PAL tapes sent to me from time to time. So I can't remember my picture setting. Sorry.
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  13. Dinosaur Supervisor KarMa's Avatar
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    Edit and Tabasco
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Wabbit Season!

    Scott
    Duck Season! Shoot!
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    You guys crack me up!

    This reminds me of a thread on atariage.com where it stated as a discussion about an upcoming console and has turned into a discussion about tacos!

    Even funnier, I believe it was a Mod that first brought up the subject of tacos, even playfully warning posters when tacos aren't mentioned enough!
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    Chimichangas!
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    Originally Posted by Barrythecrab View Post
    Chimichangas!
    You have to add -sauce at the end to have it work here! LOL
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  18. Dinosaur Supervisor KarMa's Avatar
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    lol
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  19. Member dellsam34's Avatar
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    I have a JVC HR-76XX series and I'm happy with TBC/DNR combo, Haven't come across a tape where the TBC/DNR OFF is better than it being ON, Not a single tape.
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    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    I have a JVC HR-76XX series and I'm happy with TBC/DNR combo, Haven't come across a tape where the TBC/DNR OFF is better than it being ON, Not a single tape.
    But I have on my 9911. With some particularly yucky EP tapes, the TBC produces twitchy lines that are worse than the wiggles. So I have to turn it off and use the ES-15 instead.
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    Originally Posted by JVRaines View Post
    my 9911.
    The EOL models like 2901, 5901, 101, 9911 don't age well at all. These must be babied from the start, and for whatever reason can easily produce lower quality pictures, including merely enabling DNR. Head wear is the main issue, but all the plastics in the transport don't help. This isn't a model series to be avoided, but the units need extra inspection, sometimes comparison. If you're having timing issues introduced, odds are it's the unit. But you'd need to compare it to another series JVC deck to verify it's not the tape, or a tape>deck interaction. Yet another reason to have 3x+ VCRs per workflow.
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    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    I have a JVC HR-76XX series and I'm happy with TBC/DNR combo, Haven't come across a tape where the TBC/DNR OFF is better than it being ON, Not a single tape.

    I have not used it on one, where partly the tape was in bad condition in places from being almost broken before and then it was better with the TBC off. Actually I had to use Panasonic 860 with the TBC off and the DNR on and it played it back better than the JVC with TBC/DNR on or off. I think Panasonic is better for next to destroyed tapes in places.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Originally Posted by JVRaines View Post
    my 9911.
    The EOL models like 2901, 5901, 101, 9911 don't age well at all.
    Head wear certainly wasn't the issue. I was the original owner and the deck didn't have very many hours on it.
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  24. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kodec View Post
    Its strange for a ba fan to be so surgically removed from humour
    I would reply but am too busy counting all the votes for the 'POLL'
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    I would reply but am too busy counting all the votes for the 'POLL'
    Me too.

    Image
    [Attachment 47345 - Click to enlarge]
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  26. What I can't believe is that anyone in 2018 still cares about VHS.

    Why won't you guys just let that horrible technology die already, throw those VCRs and VHS tapes in the trash and join the 21st century already.
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  27. Originally Posted by sophisticles View Post
    What I can't believe is that anyone in 2018 still cares about VHS.

    Why won't you guys just let that horrible technology die already, throw those VCRs and VHS tapes in the trash and join the 21st century already.
    The simple answer is that there are videos on VHS tape that are found on no other "better" home media. And in some cases (quite a few of the ones on which I work), the VHS sources are actually better than the videos found on later released DVDs, especially when those later DVDs use VHS tapes as their own sources.

    I work on movies, but what about the person whose family videos are on VHS tape and he/she wants to convert them to a more modern and durable digital format? What other choice is there? Since your post does nothing to further the conversation, in my opinion it comes dangerously close to trolling. No one has to justify anything to you.
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Originally Posted by kodec View Post
    Its strange for a ba fan to be so surgically removed from humour
    I would reply but am too busy counting all the votes for the 'POLL'

    That's more like it
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    I would reply but am too busy counting all the votes for the 'POLL'
    Me too.

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    [Attachment 47345 - Click to enlarge]
    Oh you naughty blue man you!

    Hmmm...I wonder if I have any blue dollars.
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