But what's the color space of Video8 or VHS ? even worse then DV ?
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That's not how it works, Yes VHS, S-VHS, Video8, Hi8 all have around the equivalent of 40 pixels of horizontal chroma resolution give or take and half of the luma resolution vertically (I believe PAL has less vertical chroma resolution than NTSC), that's why you cannot afford to mess with it, Ideally 4:4:4 is the best way to preserve it but there is no such analog capture device that can do that natively so only 4:2:2 is the most that is ever made as far as I know and mainly because of the limited computer storage back in those days (even for 4:2:2 digital Betacam tapes was the only way to capture such huge size captures using SDI port).
That guy has apparently been banned, and thank Baldrick for that, his misinformation on video was Trumpian in nature.
is is maybe where NTSC DV transfers goes wrong ?
2. Just like circumstances, sensitivities change. People can learn to be more discerning.
The pros do the same, it's just that their bar for compromise is just that much higher (partly due to that budget -or profit- thing and partly due to that sensitivity thing).
That's why real engineers will have so many equivocal caveats
Every rule has exceptions.
Exceptions never overrule rules.
I don't want to seem like I'm always coming down hard on you (I really don't want to!), but you often make untrue statements, and it's because you have limited experience in video, and often don't know what you don't know. As a related example, you can talk about TBC all you want, but you've never actually used a TBC, and yet insist your DVD recorder is "as good as". And it's just not. So you come across as a video quack, instead of just a novice hobbyist.
Sometimes people just shouldn't post. Open mouth, insert foot.
The old saying applies here: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."
Hello Guys, new here on this "resurrected from the death" thread.
I walked quite some AV mud in the last decades, starting with a $kk,- capture card of Pinnacle in a $kk,- PC with $h,- malware from Adobe. Sometimes I wake up in sweat dreaming about it.
To the point: I have digitised a few of my Hi 8 tapes so his thread is interesting, not in the least with all the passionate deep technical talk. (and the great links from earlier posts)
But with all that, I miss a little clarity and the simple question: what do you want with that, near impossible, "losless" in the end? (though I saw that question in some form in some post).
I know what I want: to keep the look and feel of the old recordings as much as I can obtain, but without sending them to some "we'll do that for you" company and without spending time forever to "get that last pixel right". Is that clear enough, or too vague? Anyway I went on trying a few methods.
What I have used:
1) Hi8 tape in Sony Digital 8 camera (heritage of my dad) - DV via Firewire - DV files.
2) Original Sony Hi8 camera - s-VHS - through Sony DVcamera- DV via Firewire - DV files.
3) Original Sony Hi8 camera - s-VHS - Terratec Grabster AV350MX - USB 2 - MPEG 4 files
4) Original Sony Hi8 camera - s-VHS - Sony HX1000 HD/DVD recorder - ??? files (DVD compatible)
1) and 2) make almost no difference, but 2) "feel" a bit better when looking at several takes. The results are quiet pleasing to my eyes given the so-so quality of the original. With that I mean not too much combing (or should I say interlace artefacts?) and the colours are not muddied as I had with other methods. Just one annoying thing: there's a vertical margin on the right side which is not very obvious, UNLESS the colors are strong, for example a red sunset makes this a very obvious green margin of about a twentieth of the screenwidth. (by the way, I watched it on TV, my laptop and my 10 bit Eizo)
3) was disappointing, the colors were muddy, the contrast awkward and the "feeling" of the old recordings ruined.
4) was almost equally disappointing, but I will try it once more because maybe I had some settings wrong.
It seems I have no better (I'm not saying other) option for now than through the DV that is so passionately disgusted or hailed by the cons/pros?
Is it possible to give a relatively simple answer to this question (example: you could use x or y of brand z or use method such-and-so?)
I very humble feel obliged to point out here, that the discussion in this thread has in my eyes moved a bit too far to an excommunicating classic papal war like ranting, with even suggestions that people should shut up if they write "heretical nonsense" that does not fit in the holy principles of others, even throwing the emotions of terminal ill people in the debate - not decent. Discussions like that pester many forums and lead to making them useless for the majority of the members. And telling people to shut up: that's against the very definition of a forum.
Last edited by Saleb Tuber; 28th Apr 2020 at 09:11.
Saleb Tuber, for your sake, it's better to start a new thread/subject, you already did some tests for yourself, that's a good starting point, you should also mention which OS you use(d)
with what PC and interface options, obviously, you already have a Firewire port available, which CPU, amount of RAM, fast storage ? and are you already "happy" with the capture software and editor you're using ? some options can make life easy
(according to the manual Sony HX1000, you can also switch the component video output on, and set it to progressive, my experience, and some other people i told about this feature are very positive about this, but most devices with this feature already give a rock steady image, there are a few capture devices that can capture component video (YUV) you could also try this if possible, and see for yourself, don't know how well Sony will handle the image quality)
The Sony HX1000 could be a good passthrough device, and video output into the Terratec Grabster AV350MX - USB 2, shame though it captures into MPEG4 but this way you have less dropped frames, and you should not edit this MPEG4 material.
btw.. s-vhs = s-video ? they are not the same.. i have a recorder that's not S-VHS but does have a s-video connection.
Last edited by Eric-jan; 28th Apr 2020 at 10:24.
Original Sony Hi8 camera > S-Video cable > Sony HX1000 HD/DVD recorder > S-Video cable > Terratec Grabster AV350MX > USB cable > PC capture with Vdub
I don't know what you mean by S-VHS but I assume you meant S-Video cable. Terratec Grabster AV350MX is German made and it appears to be of a good quality, I owned some of their audio products and I believe as long as you stay away from their software you should be able to capture lossless.
Thanks Eric-jan and dellsam34 for your quick answering, much obliged
@Eric-jan: I will start a new thread, didn't do that right away because I was a bit unsecure about it.
Very interesting, the possibilities you described on the HX1000. I will give it a try asap.
@both: I will also have a new go on the Terratec Grabster AV350MX. (Yes, there audiocards were also very good.)
I will download Vdub again, I will be a bit rusty on it I guess, it's been a long time since I had that and Avisynth running
And maybe there is some new software around. As I understand it from you both, I can also use the output of the HX1000 to the AV350MX?
And yes, with s-vhs I meant s-video, if that is the name for the connection with the "(in)famous" small round plugs.
I have always known them as s-vhs and if you google on that, you can still find s-video plugs also described as s-vhs plugs, or am I overlooking something?
(In the mean time I have learned that S-VHS itself is something completely different - good to have it separated now.)
Anyway, thanks again for making me eager to start experimenting again.
As soon as I have made a decent text for the start of a new thread I let you know were it is.
Last edited by Saleb Tuber; 28th Apr 2020 at 15:20.
btw s-video is the best you can do with the Terratec Grabster AV350MX, and yes, my guess is that will also work fine with the HX1000, the HX1000 will be a good passthrough device, no need to make dvd's or MPEG2 files.
only Super-VHS recordings will be (noticeable) better in quality
Last edited by Eric-jan; 28th Apr 2020 at 16:17.
Your magewell is upsampling from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 there is no benefit to it other than extra large files.
@dellsam34, not sure about that.
Their top line models have 10bit 4:4:4 processing engine, so if HDMI/SDI (at 4:4:4, 8 or 10bit), or component analog is coming in and being directly digitized, there should be no upsampling, it'll already be at 4:4:4.
But if it's something already pre-compressed, composite/s-video, or already color subsampled, you're right it won't make a positive difference, and will only bloat.
I highly doubt that, HDMI HD source maybe, but S-Video @ 4:4:4 give me a break, It doesn't even do 4:2:2 @ 10 bit only 8 bit. But hey if you can confirm it I will get one.
I just looked at the manual for the Magewell card and it states this:
Support for 4:2:2 8-bit capture formats: YUY2, YUYV, UYVY
Last edited by dellsam34; 29th Apr 2020 at 02:39.
I don't know if this is pertinent, but the Pro Capture HDMI Spec shows these capture formats supported. I can't tell if some of these might be HDMI only:
[Attachment 52981 - Click to enlarge]
For Component, the Spec states:
[Attachment 52983 - Click to enlarge]
For s-video (my method), the Spec states:
[Attachment 52984 - Click to enlarge]
I actually captured V410 via s-video, but I don't know if it was "natively" captured.
On another note, the expanded list of Component-Specific features makes me wonder if I should be capturing via Component. Unfortunately, I don't have an 8mm playback device with component output. Would an s-video to component converter be of any benefit?
Update: After some research, it looks like an analog 8mm playback device with component output doesn't exist.
Last edited by GrouseHiker; 29th Apr 2020 at 08:30.
Hi Guys, I was making a draw text to start a new thread, but found your latest posts here.
I can always start the new thread when I am a little bit further on the new paths you showed me.
Maybe you like to know some of my experiences on these paths.
I happily started testing again today and downloaded and installed the (infamous) driver of the Terratec 350.
After that I used Magix Pro x to capture footage, for now: directly from the Hi8 cam to s-video of the Terratec grabber.
Though I'm very happy with M Pro x for making movies, I found the grabbed material... Wjugh ! Very blocky and hazy.
So I downloaded, installed and used Virtualdub.
While capturing, the footagepreview in the vdub window went quite pale and I could hear no sound.
But the file (an .avi with no codec specification) was in good order and in fact looked better than the DV files that first were my best harvest.
The green sidebar at the edge of a sunset was way less obvious. The look and feel of the original still there also.
Only thing not so good was the amount of "combing" visible in waving hairs -there's some involuntary pun in that
To get a more contemporate format I gave the file to Handbrake and then I got a very decent Mpeg4 file, the combing reduced also.
Now I will introduce the HX1000 in the chain and see what happens. Fun anyway, thanks again.
Last edited by Saleb Tuber; 29th Apr 2020 at 12:02.
S-Video and composite will be one of these YUY2, YUYV, UYVY. There is no benefit from converting S-Video to component other than convenience.
But from your answer I understand I was right, in thinking that using S-Video in and then component out, just would make a larger shoe box around the same old shoe?
i have good experiences with component video capture not just theories.. which could be again a (new) fight here... better start a new thread/post, like you said.
You really have a good, beefy computer, Saleb Tuber, to do captures, most advised (and good) capture devices here need an old legacy pc with dito OS.
I don't know what your Terratec capture device is, maybe it's a rebranded device, it looks like a recent one... but using USB2 is bit strange.... recent USB capture devices/dongles use USB 3.0
My guess is your HX1000 will be a good passthrough between camera and Terratec, if DV/ilink/Firewire transfer gives you low quality.
but the HX1000 will give you better options with a good PCI (multi input) capture card.
Last edited by Eric-jan; 30th Apr 2020 at 05:06.
Jim The Greek:
I've been on a similar journey. For years I was stymied though I had tried a couple of things. First, I bought an elgato capture USB dongle. It worked and on certain formats it worked well but for my many 8MM tapes it introduced an annoying flicker every 10-20 seconds that I could not get rid of. That was 3 years ago. Then most recently, I bought a Sony TVR480 based on posts in this forum and others about this being "the best way" and hooked it up to my aging Dell XPS through its firewire port. The posts above about DV vs. analog capture are spot on. I wish I had read them and done more research on this site. At first, I thought the video was pretty good (it's crummy 8MM after all). But in side by side comparison with original I noticed the colors were washed out (probably could live with that or maybe even fix in editing) but most egregious there was a digitization effect where you could see wavy lines around the edges of objects.
I'm still searching. If you google any of this, you get a lot of crummy youtube links to some user who brags about how they bought a USB dongle and I'm like - "Thanks for the ad." Best option is to have it done externally but you have to be careful. First, most of the outfits out there use equipment little better than what you might have and only convert out to MP4. Second, the better outfits, even found one in NY that will output to 100 year old BlueRay, cost a fortune for what I have. I really don't want to keep everything. Just the good parts and then archive it all.
And good luck finding a decent book on the topic. I've seen several and they're all no better than rewritten instructions on how to use a USB dongle. There is so much on the web, but most all of it is the same crummy advice.
In the end, it may be simply a case of choosing the lesser between two evils. Pushing out through firewire with my old/new TVR 480 might be good enough. I'm not Stanley Kubrick after all. But disappointing not to find clear concise source for how to do this well (I mean for beginners who couldn't tell chroma from a lumen and have no idea if their equipment has a built in TBC) . I'll keep searching on this forum. Meantime, I'm going to do some research on Blackmagic converters and consider whether its worth the leap of spending yet more money (suspect I'll have to buy a new computer as well) for a result that is not going to be HD anyway. Good luck!
But if anyone has any advice for 2020 to share and get decent lossless quality - please share. Kindly note that I'm a newbie. Thank you!
Don't be led astray by anecdote. Formats like YUV, YV12, etc ARE component. Every modern digital file format is component, either RGB-based or YUV-based. Digitizing/capturing an analog signal always includes a stage that separates the elements into their components prior to encoding & saving.
Whether it is beneficial to you to do it externally in analog land prior to digitization, or during digitization will depend on the relative quality of the comparative workflows and devices. Iow, if the analog composite/svideo to component converter is better quality along with a component digitizing card vs. a reasonable composite/svideo-accepting digitizing card with a medium quality component separator stage, then you might be better off that way. But since those 2 combinations are rarer and/or more expensive (because they are geared towards pro equipment), odds are that you will find a better setup the normal way that does not pre-separate, because an integrated consumer setup is often more optimized than 2 disparate consumer-grade devices thrown together.
VHS capture starts with a good quality and good working condition player, For video 8 use a good Hi-8 or D8 camcorder with line TBC and DNR, a stable signal will ensure a wide compatibility with capture cards, and less noise reduces compression artifacts later on during encoding. From there you want to capture from the S-Video (Y/C) source in AVI 4:2:2, use lossless compressor to reduce size, Once you have the 720x480(576) files, next step is to de-interlace and crop to 704x480(576) while masking the remaining of the rough frame, now your files are ready for encoding with non square pixel format.
USB and Win10 is a rabbit hole, If you can get one of those capture cards from the 2010's such as Pinnacle under Win7 it saves you a lot of headache.
Last edited by dellsam34; 26th May 2021 at 14:58.
Oh man I've been trying to figure out the OP's question for years and never realized it was this complicated. So at this point I'm trying to make a decision on the analog capture device.
I don't want one with dongles that adds extra cable length like the elgato. Thoughts on these?
can't really tell the difference between these two, but the second one is here on amazon
Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle
So the Pinaccle seems to output a H.264 video file which I believe means it is not fully uncompressed. The Aver CE310B mentions that the capture format is converted to progressive scan, what if I want to leave my video interlaced like it originally is? Others have mentioned the Magewell Pro Capture HDMI but every picture I see of that appears to use coax inputs, not the composite and s-video I need. Same with the Black Magic H.264 Pro Recorder. Unless I'm missing something and they're designed to be used with another device between the vcr and capture card.
It's especially frustrating to read so many reviews of all of those products that said it would not work properly. My new computer should be able to handle the processing but it won't be able to compensate for a lemon. Any of these benefit from USB 3 cables?
Also I can confirm using DV capture for analog inputs is not optimal quality. In my experience it made the color look less vivid and a little grainier. But without seeing the uncompressed capture, you might not see anything wrong because it doesn't have the same kind of obvious blocky compression artifacts like a poorly encoded dvd or early youtube video does.
Again capturing analog tape format is a multi step process, Using the capture software that comes with the hardware you are doing a one step process, it will not look good.
edit: meant to have this show up as a reply on page 3.
When you mention the "Pinnacle under Win 7," are you talking about the Dazzle I linked to before?
The signal in the video cable is not stable like in a game console, The horizontal and vertical timing pulses are noisy and out of timing, So when the capture device doesn't lock on those pulses you get all kind of artifacts, Line wiggle, flagging, chroma out of phase, unstable luma level, Excessive noise or fuzziness, dropped frames, black or jerky frames and the list goes on.
Legacy capture cards and devices were built around this concept of noisy video, Not the current ones unfortunately even the Dazzles (based on members feedback), And to top it off Microsoft killed every possibility of a working video driver that can actually make the card capable of capturing such analog consumer video sources.