VideoHelp Forum

Try DVDFab and download streaming video, copy, convert or make Blu-rays,DVDs! Download free trial !
+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 3
FirstFirst 1 2 3
Results 61 to 78 of 78
Thread
  1. mr. Eric-jan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Netherlands
    Search Comp PM
    But what's the color space of Video8 or VHS ? even worse then DV ?
    Quote Quote  
  2. Member dellsam34's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Paris Ca, 92345 Mexico
    Search PM
    That's not how it works, Yes VHS, S-VHS, Video8, Hi8 all have around the equivalent of 40 pixels of horizontal chroma resolution give or take and half of the luma resolution vertically (I believe PAL has less vertical chroma resolution than NTSC), that's why you cannot afford to mess with it, Ideally 4:4:4 is the best way to preserve it but there is no such analog capture device that can do that natively so only 4:2:2 is the most that is ever made as far as I know and mainly because of the limited computer storage back in those days (even for 4:2:2 digital Betacam tapes was the only way to capture such huge size captures using SDI port).
    Quote Quote  
  3. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    dFAQ.us/lordsmurf
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Eric-jan View Post
    A great post babygdav,
    No. Most of his post was nonsense.
    That guy has apparently been banned, and thank Baldrick for that, his misinformation on video was Trumpian in nature.

    is is maybe where NTSC DV transfers goes wrong ?
    No. DV is compressed to hell and back, chopping out 50%+ of the already-weak color data. Remember, DV was the tech of the mid/late 1990s, from the era of Pentium II/III computers. By 2001, thanks to Pentium 4, DV was a dated format that was largely abandoned for quality lossless formats like Huffyuv (and later many more). The only people that defended DV were just defending their expensive purchases. Those DV boxes had stupid prices, $250-500 for a card using vastly outdated technology. Canopus relied so hard on marketing in the early 2000s that it was often blatant lies and mistruths, parroted by know-nothing salesman at places like B&H (and I called them out on it publicly, in a past post at this site, where B&H gave a half-assed mealy-mouthed non-apology for their FUD).

    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    , it should always be tailored to the situation. It doesn't hurt to say what the benchmark is
    That's exactly it. Compromises can be made, when possible, to fill the need. Some aspects are non-negotiable (ie, MUST HAVE some sort of TBC in workflow), while others are fungible (often causes by outside factors like OS, not money).

    2. Just like circumstances, sensitivities change. People can learn to be more discerning.
    After you show somebody a flaw, they cannot forget it easily. For me, my favorite with VHS, is always to point out the blatant red/blue misty chroma noise on VHS tapes. Once people realize they've been looking at video through haze, they suddenly see the need to correct/remove it. Same goes for many issues, like mosquito noise, deinterlace artifacts, etc. People learn. For me, the goal is to catch them early, before they make a mistake (do bad job, toss out tapes, realize later it was bad job, now SOL).

    The pros do the same, it's just that their bar for compromise is just that much higher (partly due to that budget -or profit- thing and partly due to that sensitivity thing).
    But a big part of it is because you must accept a wide range of problem video. It's easy to be myopic, to see your own little stack of videos. It's another entirely when you must deal with errors you're never seen before.

    That's why real engineers will have so many equivocal caveats
    Lots of rules.
    Every rule has exceptions.
    Exceptions never overrule rules.

    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    @babygdav: Let me try this for a second time, Sony GVD-800 is no better than any Hi8/D8 camcorder with S-Video out and line TBC, So your assumption of expensive hardware equals better quality is dead wrong, you got called out on it before and you are still repeating it.
    Correct.

    Originally Posted by Eric-jan View Post
    When you put it like that..... uhhh... no, priorities in life have a certain order and transfering analog video into digital isn't that high on that list,
    Not really. Again, you have your own quaint/myopic experience. But you've apparently never met a person who has a life-ending diagnosis, and need to convert memories for the family. The source tapes had no real labeling, wasn't obvious who in the videos, where those were taken. The only person who knew the importance was on a clock. Converting memories for the family suddenly became a top priority. I've been in this position more than once over the years, both in teaching role (DIY), and doing the work with as quickly as possible.

    I don't want to seem like I'm always coming down hard on you (I really don't want to!), but you often make untrue statements, and it's because you have limited experience in video, and often don't know what you don't know. As a related example, you can talk about TBC all you want, but you've never actually used a TBC, and yet insist your DVD recorder is "as good as". And it's just not. So you come across as a video quack, instead of just a novice hobbyist.

    Sometimes people just shouldn't post. Open mouth, insert foot.
    The old saying applies here: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 27th Apr 2020 at 21:23.
    Quote Quote  
  4. mr. Eric-jan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Netherlands
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Originally Posted by Eric-jan View Post
    A great post babygdav,
    No. Most of his post was nonsense.
    That guy has apparently been banned, and thank Baldrick for that, his misinformation on video was Trumpian in nature.
    ."
    I did report babygdav's nonsens post... he was way out of line i agree ! but he had some good points in his other posts, although the links to youtube examples where lame, which had no value to help any one.
    Quote Quote  
  5. Hello Guys, new here on this "resurrected from the death" thread.
    I walked quite some AV mud in the last decades, starting with a $kk,- capture card of Pinnacle in a $kk,- PC with $h,- malware from Adobe. Sometimes I wake up in sweat dreaming about it.

    To the point: I have digitised a few of my Hi 8 tapes so his thread is interesting, not in the least with all the passionate deep technical talk. (and the great links from earlier posts)
    But with all that, I miss a little clarity and the simple question: what do you want with that, near impossible, "losless" in the end? (though I saw that question in some form in some post).
    I know what I want: to keep the look and feel of the old recordings as much as I can obtain, but without sending them to some "we'll do that for you" company and without spending time forever to "get that last pixel right". Is that clear enough, or too vague? Anyway I went on trying a few methods.

    What I have used:
    1) Hi8 tape in Sony Digital 8 camera (heritage of my dad) - DV via Firewire - DV files.
    2) Original Sony Hi8 camera - s-VHS - through Sony DVcamera- DV via Firewire - DV files.
    3) Original Sony Hi8 camera - s-VHS - Terratec Grabster AV350MX - USB 2 - MPEG 4 files
    4) Original Sony Hi8 camera - s-VHS - Sony HX1000 HD/DVD recorder - ??? files (DVD compatible)

    1) and 2) make almost no difference, but 2) "feel" a bit better when looking at several takes. The results are quiet pleasing to my eyes given the so-so quality of the original. With that I mean not too much combing (or should I say interlace artefacts?) and the colours are not muddied as I had with other methods. Just one annoying thing: there's a vertical margin on the right side which is not very obvious, UNLESS the colors are strong, for example a red sunset makes this a very obvious green margin of about a twentieth of the screenwidth. (by the way, I watched it on TV, my laptop and my 10 bit Eizo)

    3) was disappointing, the colors were muddy, the contrast awkward and the "feeling" of the old recordings ruined.
    4) was almost equally disappointing, but I will try it once more because maybe I had some settings wrong.

    It seems I have no better (I'm not saying other) option for now than through the DV that is so passionately disgusted or hailed by the cons/pros?

    Is it possible to give a relatively simple answer to this question (example: you could use x or y of brand z or use method such-and-so?)

    I very humble feel obliged to point out here, that the discussion in this thread has in my eyes moved a bit too far to an excommunicating classic papal war like ranting, with even suggestions that people should shut up if they write "heretical nonsense" that does not fit in the holy principles of others, even throwing the emotions of terminal ill people in the debate - not decent. Discussions like that pester many forums and lead to making them useless for the majority of the members. And telling people to shut up: that's against the very definition of a forum.
    Last edited by Saleb Tuber; 28th Apr 2020 at 09:11.
    Quote Quote  
  6. mr. Eric-jan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Netherlands
    Search Comp PM
    Saleb Tuber, for your sake, it's better to start a new thread/subject, you already did some tests for yourself, that's a good starting point, you should also mention which OS you use(d)
    with what PC and interface options, obviously, you already have a Firewire port available, which CPU, amount of RAM, fast storage ? and are you already "happy" with the capture software and editor you're using ? some options can make life easy

    (according to the manual Sony HX1000, you can also switch the component video output on, and set it to progressive, my experience, and some other people i told about this feature are very positive about this, but most devices with this feature already give a rock steady image, there are a few capture devices that can capture component video (YUV) you could also try this if possible, and see for yourself, don't know how well Sony will handle the image quality)

    The Sony HX1000 could be a good passthrough device, and video output into the Terratec Grabster AV350MX - USB 2, shame though it captures into MPEG4 but this way you have less dropped frames, and you should not edit this MPEG4 material.

    btw.. s-vhs = s-video ? they are not the same.. i have a recorder that's not S-VHS but does have a s-video connection.
    Last edited by Eric-jan; 28th Apr 2020 at 10:24.
    Quote Quote  
  7. Member dellsam34's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Paris Ca, 92345 Mexico
    Search PM
    Original Sony Hi8 camera > S-Video cable > Sony HX1000 HD/DVD recorder > S-Video cable > Terratec Grabster AV350MX > USB cable > PC capture with Vdub

    I don't know what you mean by S-VHS but I assume you meant S-Video cable. Terratec Grabster AV350MX is German made and it appears to be of a good quality, I owned some of their audio products and I believe as long as you stay away from their software you should be able to capture lossless.
    Quote Quote  
  8. Thanks Eric-jan and dellsam34 for your quick answering, much obliged

    @Eric-jan: I will start a new thread, didn't do that right away because I was a bit unsecure about it.
    Very interesting, the possibilities you described on the HX1000. I will give it a try asap.

    @both: I will also have a new go on the Terratec Grabster AV350MX. (Yes, there audiocards were also very good.)
    I will download Vdub again, I will be a bit rusty on it I guess, it's been a long time since I had that and Avisynth running
    And maybe there is some new software around. As I understand it from you both, I can also use the output of the HX1000 to the AV350MX?
    And yes, with s-vhs I meant s-video, if that is the name for the connection with the "(in)famous" small round plugs.
    I have always known them as s-vhs and if you google on that, you can still find s-video plugs also described as s-vhs plugs, or am I overlooking something?
    (In the mean time I have learned that S-VHS itself is something completely different - good to have it separated now.)

    Anyway, thanks again for making me eager to start experimenting again.
    As soon as I have made a decent text for the start of a new thread I let you know were it is.

    Regards, ST
    Last edited by Saleb Tuber; 28th Apr 2020 at 15:20.
    Quote Quote  
  9. mr. Eric-jan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Netherlands
    Search Comp PM
    btw s-video is the best you can do with the Terratec Grabster AV350MX, and yes, my guess is that will also work fine with the HX1000, the HX1000 will be a good passthrough device, no need to make dvd's or MPEG2 files.
    only Super-VHS recordings will be (noticeable) better in quality
    Last edited by Eric-jan; 28th Apr 2020 at 16:17.
    Quote Quote  
  10. Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    ... Ideally 4:4:4 is the best way to preserve it but there is no such analog capture device that can do that natively so only 4:2:2 is the most that is ever made as far as I know ....
    dellsam34 - I don't know what "natively" means, but I just captured (as an experiment) 4:4:4 V410 video through the Magewell Capture Pro HDMI. I captured it uncompressed... didn't want to trial and error a compression scheme.
    Quote Quote  
  11. Member dellsam34's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Paris Ca, 92345 Mexico
    Search PM
    Your magewell is upsampling from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 there is no benefit to it other than extra large files.
    Quote Quote  
  12. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Deep in the Heart of Texas
    Search PM
    @dellsam34, not sure about that.
    Their top line models have 10bit 4:4:4 processing engine, so if HDMI/SDI (at 4:4:4, 8 or 10bit), or component analog is coming in and being directly digitized, there should be no upsampling, it'll already be at 4:4:4.
    But if it's something already pre-compressed, composite/s-video, or already color subsampled, you're right it won't make a positive difference, and will only bloat.

    Scott
    Quote Quote  
  13. Member dellsam34's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Paris Ca, 92345 Mexico
    Search PM
    I highly doubt that, HDMI HD source maybe, but S-Video @ 4:4:4 give me a break, It doesn't even do 4:2:2 @ 10 bit only 8 bit. But hey if you can confirm it I will get one.

    Edit:
    I just looked at the manual for the Magewell card and it states this:
    Support for 4:2:2 8-bit capture formats: YUY2, YUYV, UYVY
    Last edited by dellsam34; 29th Apr 2020 at 02:39.
    Quote Quote  
  14. I don't know if this is pertinent, but the Pro Capture HDMI Spec shows these capture formats supported. I can't tell if some of these might be HDMI only:
    Image
    [Attachment 52981 - Click to enlarge]


    For Component, the Spec states:
    Image
    [Attachment 52983 - Click to enlarge]


    For s-video (my method), the Spec states:
    Image
    [Attachment 52984 - Click to enlarge]


    I actually captured V410 via s-video, but I don't know if it was "natively" captured.

    On another note, the expanded list of Component-Specific features makes me wonder if I should be capturing via Component. Unfortunately, I don't have an 8mm playback device with component output. Would an s-video to component converter be of any benefit?

    Update: After some research, it looks like an analog 8mm playback device with component output doesn't exist.
    Last edited by GrouseHiker; 29th Apr 2020 at 08:30.
    Quote Quote  
  15. Hi Guys, I was making a draw text to start a new thread, but found your latest posts here.
    I can always start the new thread when I am a little bit further on the new paths you showed me.

    Maybe you like to know some of my experiences on these paths.
    I happily started testing again today and downloaded and installed the (infamous) driver of the Terratec 350.

    After that I used Magix Pro x to capture footage, for now: directly from the Hi8 cam to s-video of the Terratec grabber.
    Though I'm very happy with M Pro x for making movies, I found the grabbed material... Wjugh ! Very blocky and hazy.

    So I downloaded, installed and used Virtualdub.
    While capturing, the footagepreview in the vdub window went quite pale and I could hear no sound.
    But the file (an .avi with no codec specification) was in good order and in fact looked better than the DV files that first were my best harvest.
    The green sidebar at the edge of a sunset was way less obvious. The look and feel of the original still there also.
    Only thing not so good was the amount of "combing" visible in waving hairs -there's some involuntary pun in that
    To get a more contemporate format I gave the file to Handbrake and then I got a very decent Mpeg4 file, the combing reduced also.

    Now I will introduce the HX1000 in the chain and see what happens. Fun anyway, thanks again.
    Last edited by Saleb Tuber; 29th Apr 2020 at 12:02.
    Quote Quote  
  16. Member dellsam34's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Paris Ca, 92345 Mexico
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by GrouseHiker View Post
    I actually captured V410 via s-video, but I don't know if it was "natively" captured.

    On another note, the expanded list of Component-Specific features makes me wonder if I should be capturing via Component. Unfortunately, I don't have an 8mm playback device with component output. Would an s-video to component converter be of any benefit?

    Update: After some research, it looks like an analog 8mm playback device with component output doesn't exist.
    S-Video and composite will be one of these YUY2, YUYV, UYVY. There is no benefit from converting S-Video to component other than convenience.
    Quote Quote  
  17. S-Video and composite will be one of these YUY2, YUYV, UYVY. There is no benefit from converting S-Video to component other than convenience.
    Pffew that's a bit of a relieve, because I saw a component output on my HX1000 and was about to ask if there could be any benefit in my setup.

    But from your answer I understand I was right, in thinking that using S-Video in and then component out, just would make a larger shoe box around the same old shoe?
    Quote Quote  
  18. mr. Eric-jan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Netherlands
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Saleb Tuber View Post
    S-Video and composite will be one of these YUY2, YUYV, UYVY. There is no benefit from converting S-Video to component other than convenience.
    Pffew that's a bit of a relieve, because I saw a component output on my HX1000 and was about to ask if there could be any benefit in my setup.

    But from your answer I understand I was right, in thinking that using S-Video in and then component out, just would make a larger shoe box around the same old shoe?
    That question was about converting s-video to component, (one subject in one post is much easier) that's indeed useless, you will find not many people who have really tried to capture from component video but me.
    i have good experiences with component video capture not just theories.. which could be again a (new) fight here... better start a new thread/post, like you said.
    You really have a good, beefy computer, Saleb Tuber, to do captures, most advised (and good) capture devices here need an old legacy pc with dito OS.
    I don't know what your Terratec capture device is, maybe it's a rebranded device, it looks like a recent one... but using USB2 is bit strange.... recent USB capture devices/dongles use USB 3.0
    My guess is your HX1000 will be a good passthrough between camera and Terratec, if DV/ilink/Firewire transfer gives you low quality.
    but the HX1000 will give you better options with a good PCI (multi input) capture card.
    Last edited by Eric-jan; 30th Apr 2020 at 05:06.
    Quote Quote  



Similar Threads