RCA beats S-VHS?

[Captaindash]

Hey everybody. Reading around the forum I saw some great information so I figured I'd join the crowd and hopefully find some answers of my own.

I brought my JVC HR-S3600U out of storage for some VHS conversion. It has S-Video so I figured it would be great for capture so after watching tons of do's/don'ts videos regarding how to clean a VCR, I cleaned the heads (99% isopropyl alcohol and printer paper, the rest of the components with cotton swab and 99% iso) and was off to the races. In addition to the annoying "video calibration" popup that sometimes rears it's ugly head to ruin captures, I realized something after already capturing a couple dozen tapes:

The picture quality is super, mega, ultra soft. I figured I had a decent-ish VCR and that old VHS was bad in general so I didn't know the quality was much, much worse that what's possible. I know this because the whole "video calibration" thing was driving me so nuts that I borrowed a random VCR from my mom's closet and cleaned it. It's a 4 Head Panasonic PV-V4620-K. Just RCA jacks, and the picture quality from it is so much better I couldn't believe it. I did an RCA vs S-Video test on the JVC and the difference was negligible, but the Panasonic RCA vs either of those JVC results wasn't even close. I really want to get the best quality I can for my captures so now I don't know what to do.

Is there any way to:

1) Increase the sharpness of a VCR? The colours all sorta bleed into each other so things are all soft. For example, text on a street sign will be illegible on the JVC, but not too shabby on the Panasonic. The JVC plays tapes just fine (other than the popup), but it very soft/fuzzy/colour-bleedy.

2) Get rid of that "video calibration" stupid popup that ruins captures with my JVC

Not sure what to do because I'm afraid to buy a used VCR online because of the wildly varying, upside down results of the two VCRs I have access to, plus I don't know if it would make enough of a real world difference to justify the cost, since I can get decent results with that RCA Panasonic right now.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated. The road to getting even to this point was really long and arduous, but I'm so close now. Just this final hurdle.

[redwudz]

S-video (2 cables) should give you better quality than composite (1 cable) signals and component (3 cables) better still.
Sounds like a problem with the JVC.

But other members here can probably give you better information.

And welcome to our forums.

[JVRaines]

Here is the JVC manual in case you don't have a copy. Everything you want is in Main Menu/Function Set. Superimpose = Off. Picture Control = Edit.

It is possible that the JVC needs service if it has been long stored.

[KarMa]

Yes, use Edit mode. I can turn auto calibration off, but I leave it on as it does not popup on the screen when it's doing it.

[lordsmurf]

EDIT mode disables all the NR filters.
I almost always leave it on. Turning it off defeats part of the purpose of having the quality S-VHS VCR.
You get full noise with it off.

[Captaindash]

Thanks so much for all the quick replies.

Oh man, this is painful to admit but I'm not sure I went through the menus on the JVC. When I said my journey has been arduous, I mean I've gone through so many products and manuals and settings and all of that, but I may have not done the menu on the JVC. I'm using a Sony Digital8 camera as my converter and I've gone up and down that thing with menus, and I've had to deal with problems from Premiere Pro and iMovie (I actually have only had success with a old version of iMovie on my old laptop since my stupid 2016 MacBook pro only has USB Type C ports and I can't figure out how to connect a firewire camera to it). I've purchased those ghetto $75 capture devices that only capture with low bitrates, and I've tried Hi-8 camera's (I also had tons of Hi-8 to capture) and all kinds of stuff. I've googled manuals up the wazoo for so many of the things I've tried, but I don't think I did for the JVC because it just "worked" so I thought the problems were all further on down the chain.

Now it's VCR to Digital8 camera to iMovie 9 (2013 version that doesn't play sound during capture) in default .dv format, then move my external drive to my new laptop to convert to .mov using Quicktime at the same bitrate because my old laptop gives me an error message at the end of conversion.

This has been a long, long process but I've finally got a system that works, minus the VCR quality. I'll try some tests today or tomorrow. I really, really hope I'm just an idiot and it's some setting like NR making it soft.

[Captaindash]

I'm okay with noise since I'd prefer to use 2018 DaVinci Resolve or Premiere Pro or whatever to get rid of noise vs something that came default on a 1990's VCR. I just want as much "information" and detail as possible in my initial capture.

[JVRaines]

Don't assume that digital processing will be better. Try different settings to see what looks good. By definition, "noise" is not "information."

[LMotlow]

Lordsmurf and many other JVC fans just love blurry foggy misty video with no detail. Detail hurts their eyes and forces them to focus to see it, even if it was there. They have no concept of proper modern 21st century noise reduction but but prefer to soften video with JVC players until it looks like mush. Use your Panasonic and learn to denoise properly to retain as much detail as possible. On the other hand if you like JVC, by all means use it until you go blind looking for better results with it.

[KarMa]

Lordsmurf and many other JVC fans just love blurry foggy misty video with no detail. Detail hurts their eyes and forces them to focus to see it, even if it was there. They have no concept of proper modern 21st century noise reduction but but prefer to soften video with JVC players until it looks like mush. Use your Panasonic and learn to denoise properly to retain as much detail as possible. On the other hand if you like JVC, by all means use it until you go blind looking for better results with it.

You are suggesting OP use the Standard VHS Panasoinic with RCA over the S-VHS JVC with S-Video Out (In Edit Mode)?

[Captaindash]

Lordsmurf and many other JVC fans just love blurry foggy misty video with no detail. Detail hurts their eyes and forces them to focus to see it, even if it was there. They have no concept of proper modern 21st century noise reduction but but prefer to soften video with JVC players until it looks like mush. Use your Panasonic and learn to denoise properly to retain as much detail as possible. On the other hand if you like JVC, by all means use it until you go blind looking for better results with it.

LMAO. I'll capture both ways, and output to 2 tv's. My left eye will watch soft mush on one, while my right eye spies detailed noise on the other. They'll duke it out, Beyond Thunderdome style.

[Cornucopia]

Except many of the (analog?) NR circuits within the players also have access to additional in-deck information: RF envelope, capstan/servo, headswitching, crystal timing, etc.
So they can often be more intelligent in the way that they process such things as dropouts & skew.

Scott

[lordsmurf]

Lordsmurf and many other JVC fans just love blurry foggy misty video with no detail. Detail hurts their eyes and forces them to focus to see it, even if it was there. They have no concept of proper modern 21st century noise reduction but but prefer to soften video with JVC players until it looks like mush. Use your Panasonic and learn to denoise properly to retain as much detail as possible. On the other hand if you like JVC, by all means use it until you go blind looking for better results with it.

No.

As Cornucupia says, there are aspects of the video signal that cannot be accessed by software post-capture. NR is not something to be addresses whenever you want. Software is not, and never has been, a magic fix-all. Software has limits, always has, always will.

"Detail" is also often confused with noise.

Yes, sometimes a JVC is too harsh. But often it is not. And sometimes it's not enough. It's the 3 bears. In those instances, it should be turned off, or just use another deck entirely (Panasonic).

You must also realize that my experience entails thousands of tapes, from all over, not just my own collection. Sometimes you do run into a video collection that does entirely hate JVC, or Panasonic. Those are outliers, not the norm. Sometimes I read JVC hate, but I have a strong suspicion that it's from somebody that owns one of the outliers. Tapes all react different.

Age also plays a factor, condition plays a factor. I've seen bad used JVCs with near-gone head wear.

Model plays a factor. Some JVC models are known to be softer than the others.

So if you get a not-great model, used with wear, I can entirely see that you'll get a hazy soft image. But it's because that exact VCR sucks, not because JVC sucks.

Remember, I've been using JVCs for well over 20 years now.

[Captaindash]

[Attachment 46386 - Click to enlarge]
[Attachment 46387 - Click to enlarge] I did some tests and hopefully the attached pics show up large enough to tell, but:

UL=Mom's RCA,
UR=JVC S-Vid NORM,
LL=JVC S-Vid SHARP,
LR=JVC S-Vid EDIT.

Those modes do make a large difference. You're right lordsmurf, I now just have to choose which of the 4 bears I like best. I'm still blown away though that in side by sides it's not in any way obvious which photos are RCA and which are S-Vid. Interesting comments about NR. I think I'll play around with these clips in Premiere Pro or DaVinci to see what the overall best look I can get it. Turns out I did go through the menus before, but the manual says stuff like "Use Edit when you dub tapes" so I had no idea what that even meant. Thanks for the detailed explanations. Thanks so much for all of you who told me to check the different modes because I'd totally forgotten about that. Back when I was going through the modes it wasn't about image quality, it was to figure out why I had trouble capturing audio properly (which turned out to be Premiere Pro's problem which is why I'm using that old version of iMovie and such a ridiculous workflow.

[Captaindash]

Except many of the (analog?) NR circuits within the players also have access to additional in-deck information: RF envelope, capstan/servo, headswitching, crystal timing, etc.
So they can often be more intelligent in the way that they process such things as dropouts & skew.

Scott

Stop throwing monkey wrenches into this. I want a unified, universal, simple, all-in-one solution that's perfect for every single possible situation. In life. Is that so wrong?

[Captaindash]

Here is the JVC manual in case you don't have a copy. Everything you want is in Main Menu/Function Set. Superimpose = Off. Picture Control = Edit.

It is possible that the JVC needs service if it has been long stored.

Superimpose - OFF. You rule! I somehow missed this before.

[JVRaines]

What I'm seeing is more aggressive sharpening in the Panasonic output. This is accomplished by circuits which exaggerate the boundaries between light and dark areas in the horizontal direction. Some sharpening is performed by the video camera and inherent to the recording. The rest is configurable in VCR playback. You'll notice that there are bright halos around the lettering in the Panasonic frame, while the JVC-Sharp frame exaggerates the dark band to the right of the sign. Once this sharpening takes place, it is difficult to undo in the digital version, so make sure you are happy with the look.

[LMotlow]

Lordsmurf and many other JVC fans just love blurry foggy misty video with no detail. Detail hurts their eyes and forces them to focus to see it, even if it was there. They have no concept of proper modern 21st century noise reduction but but prefer to soften video with JVC players until it looks like mush. Use your Panasonic and learn to denoise properly to retain as much detail as possible. On the other hand if you like JVC, by all means use it until you go blind looking for better results with it.

No.

As Cornucupia says, there are aspects of the video signal that cannot be accessed by software post-capture. NR is not something to be addresses whenever you want. Software is not, and never has been, a magic fix-all. Software has limits, always has, always will.

"Detail" is also often confused with noise.

Yes, sometimes a JVC is too harsh. But often it is not. And sometimes it's not enough. It's the 3 bears. In those instances, it should be turned off, or just use another deck entirely (Panasonic).

You must also realize that my experience entails thousands of tapes, from all over, not just my own collection. Sometimes you do run into a video collection that does entirely hate JVC, or Panasonic. Those are outliers, not the norm. Sometimes I read JVC hate, but I have a strong suspicion that it's from somebody that owns one of the outliers. Tapes all react different.

Age also plays a factor, condition plays a factor. I've seen bad used JVCs with near-gone head wear.

Model plays a factor. Some JVC models are known to be softer than the others.

So if you get a not-great model, used with wear, I can entirely see that you'll get a hazy soft image. But it's because that exact VCR sucks, not because JVC sucks.

Remember, I've been using JVCs for well over 20 years now.

So have I, and I've been watching JVC results for just as many years. Maybe you need something to wake up your eyesight, dude, and don;'t give me that silly put-offish crap about using defective machines. Please don't shock your eyesight awake. JVC was soft-focus 2nd-rate performance 20 years ago, 10 years ago, is soft-focus 2nd-rate performance today, and will be soft-focus 2nd-rate detail-killing performance tomorrow.

There are people around here that you can learn a lot from, but the first thing you learn from them is that they assume no one else knows anything, they can't possibly learn anything from any other source, and they listen only to themselves.

This may surprise your socks off but I tried those exalted JVC's. Six of them. three complete and very expensive professional rebuilds and three completely new units, all six of them right off your recommended high-end list that has made suckers of so many other people over the years. I really believed that nonsense from your posts and thought the fault was mine. Boy, those JVCs were six really really really bad mistakes and total wastes of time, money, and effort, not to mention a couple of prized tapes permanently crippled by one of those damn machines. And in fact the only machine that will track those damaged tapes successfully is one of my Panasonic AG-1980's. With the 1980's I'm even able to read the fine copyright detail in the film credits, which was always just a blur on any JVC. After recapturing hundreds of hours of tapes that were made into soft-focus mush by those JVC's, I finally found out what what was really on those tapes by using other players, even cheaper midstream players that made JVC look like the over-rated toys they really were. You can make all the condescending apologies and fantasy claims you want for that JVC "magic" you say you've achieved, but you've never shown your supposedly superior JVC results anywhere that I know of for the past 10 years, and what I've seen from others in these forums never did anything to support your claims.

So if you get a not-great model, used with wear, I can entirely see that you'll get a hazy soft image. But it's because that exact VCR sucks, not because JVC sucks.

Oh please, smurf, you've getting so addled, jaded, and so sold on yourself that you're starting to brain-fart insulting nonsense and b.s. Hell, man, wake up and look around. Using a worn model, you say? Holy crap. I used to credit you with more sense than that. What a disappointment. And talk about "worn model"!

[lordsmurf]

the only machine that will track those damaged tapes successfully is one of my Panasonic AG-1980's.

It's the tape that does it, not the VCR. It happens. Sometimes you run across tapes that like neither JVC nor Panasonic, and the real fun begins. You start pulling out Sharps and Orions, or even start to purposely misalign machines so it'll cooperate.

but you've never shown your supposedly superior JVC results anywhere that I know of for the past 10 years, and what I've seen from others in these forums never did anything to support your claims.

Not in the past 10 years, no. I did 15-20 ago, however. I do still take a lot of test footage, but it takes times to write up analysis and share. Given my limited time, I just share results. And really, that's what most people care about anyway -- the results.

Using a worn model, you say?

Some models, like SR-V101, were always a bit diminished compared to other JVCs (all things even, both units new). But the worn 101 units are ghastly, with blur being a major symptom. In 2017, the 101 were being dumped on eBay for <$200 a pop, from unknown sources, mostly from recyclers on the west coast, and in the most dreadful of conditions. Of course, eBay descriptions were "works great"," tested", and similar BS. The difference between blurry and not is quite stark based on head wear. And actually, the same is true of the AG-1980P, I seen a few of those as well.

[Captaindash]

I think I'll go with the JVC on Edit Mode since I'm still enamoured (rightly or wrongly) with the fact it's S-Video, it's almost as sharp as the Panasonic, yet with less noise so I'm sure I can get the Panasonic sharpness in post if I want that extra little bit. Still, this has been quite the learning experience. Thanks so much for getting me over the final hurdles ya'll. Superimpose off, Edit mode sharpness, S-Video. Done.

[dellsam34]

I always capture VHS using S-Video no matter what the picture looks like, I too owned VCR's with composite only and the picture looked brighter and sharper but that's just a shitty automatic gain control and DNR. Another thing I would mention is that you are using DV, DV is a lossy compression and the chroma is lossy as well 4:1:1 (4:2:0 PAL) vs lossless AVI 4:2:2, There is a lot of threads here in the forum if you want to learn how to capture in Lossless using VetrualDub.

[Captaindash]

I always capture VHS using S-Video no matter what the picture looks like, I too owned VCR's with composite only and the picture looked brighter and sharper but that's just a shitty automatic gain control and DNR. Another thing I would mention is that you are using DV, DV is a lossy compression and the chroma is lossy as well 4:1:1 (4:2:0 PAL) vs lossless AVI 4:2:2, There is a lot of threads here in the forum if you want to learn how to capture in Lossless using VetrualDub.

Don't you dare! I just got through the trials and tribulations of getting this far and now you're telling me to start over? I'm away from home right now but when I get back I'm sure I'll be delving into that too for some of the more important videos. I can't imagine the file sizes since DV is 26GB for each 2hr tape I capture. Yikes! I'll do a couple tests to see if I can tell the difference to see if it's worth it.

Update: I just checked virtual dub and it looks like it's Windows only. I do have access to an old Windows laptop running 7, but I'm not sure having to deal with Windows is worth it, haha. We'll see.

[dellsam34]

You can still encode the resulting AVI lossless files from VirtualDub to MP4 (MPEG4) after you're done with editing, MPEG4 is much more efficient than MPEG2 or DV, I compared still frames of MPEG4 and Lossless AVI and I couldn't see any difference.

[davideck]

I think I'll go with the JVC on Edit Mode since I'm still enamoured (rightly or wrongly) with the fact it's S-Video, it's almost as sharp as the Panasonic, yet with less noise so I'm sure I can get the Panasonic sharpness in post if I want that extra little bit. Still, this has been quite the learning experience. Thanks so much for getting me over the final hurdles ya'll. Superimpose off, Edit mode sharpness, S-Video. Done.

Don't confuse sharpness with detail. It's possible to sharpen up edges in post, but detail lost during a soft playback is gone forever. Once it's gone it's gone. It's possible to reduce noise in post, but it's not possible to regenerate lost detail.

[victoriabears]

Oh Boy..............this subject=wow, still going after all these years, I finished my UK PAL vhs to dvd project some 5 years ago, over 500 tapes, and had not much luck with computer capture, tried capture cards external and internal, may be it was just that I did not want to give the time, ended up with models of VCR's from Panasonic(My personal fave) JVC and Sharp and Phillips(Which as actually a JVC 9800 under the hood), used JVC DVD recorders, Panasonic, Pioneer worldwide and Philips DVD Recorders, found DVD recorders the simplest solution chain was VCR>TBC(AVT8700 and Datavideo TBC1000)>JVC m100 I think. One thing I wish I had done was kept certain VHS's so I could have another go as the software I really like is TMPG, currently Video mastering works 6, as I am now converting the dvd's from the VHS Project to MKV !!!(Will it ever end). and this version of that software is a big improvement over previous offerings. Using avisynth et al is a Loooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggg road but if you want to learn and give it the time, but I found my workflow must more satisfying and generally pleased with the results, I find many good dvd players and TV's do a good job of getting the best from the source.

[Captaindash]

Oh Boy..............this subject=wow, still going after all these years, I finished my UK PAL vhs to dvd project some 5 years ago, over 500 tapes, and had not much luck with computer capture, tried capture cards external and internal, may be it was just that I did not want to give the time, ended up with models of VCR's from Panasonic(My personal fave) JVC and Sharp and Phillips(Which as actually a JVC 9800 under the hood), used JVC DVD recorders, Panasonic, Pioneer worldwide and Philips DVD Recorders, found DVD recorders the simplest solution chain was VCR>TBC(AVT8700 and Datavideo TBC1000)>JVC m100 I think. One thing I wish I had done was kept certain VHS's so I could have another go as the software I really like is TMPG, currently Video mastering works 6, as I am now converting the dvd's from the VHS Project to MKV !!!(Will it ever end). and this version of that software is a big improvement over previous offerings. Using avisynth et al is a Loooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggg road but if you want to learn and give it the time, but I found my workflow must more satisfying and generally pleased with the results, I find many good dvd players and TV's do a good job of getting the best from the source.

I already had all the components (VCR's, S-Video cable, capture software etc) except for the Digital8 camera which I bought on eBay specifically for the AV->DV conversion. A DVD recorder would actually introduce another obstacle for me because I'm a Mac guy and haven't had a DVD drive for years on my laptops. I do have a Windows laptop buy my hard drives are Mac formatted, haha. It's a never ending tree that keeps branching out. I'm just happy I finally have good quality .mov files now. I was blown away that many of the off the shelf solutions give you horribly compressed files. The .DV files are about 13GB per hour and I've seen capture devices and software that only will give you 1-2GB files. .DV is still slightly compressed, but it's way, way, way better than most of what's out there. Most people are destroying their files while capturing and don't realize it.

There are soooo many ways to skin this cat. I'd be shocked if 2 people had the exact same workflow using the exact same components.

[Captaindash]

Anybody ever heard of a VCR randomly fast forwarding (fast forward search, or whatever you call it), then returning to normal speed in the middle of playing? My Panasonic seems to have developed a penchant for it (or at least I hope it's recent. I just noticed it now but haven't watched in real time all the stuff I've captured with it).

[JVRaines]

Does it actually change mode (FF/Cue lights up) or does it just play too fast?

[Captaindash]

Does it actually change mode (FF/Cue lights up) or does it just play too fast?

It will play normal speed, then play at the exact same speed as if I pressed the FWD button, and then on it's own return to normal speed. I was capturing a long video with 2 different VCR's and couldn't figure out why they'd come out at different lengths until I walked in on the Panasonic fast forwarding on it's own. It was with really old home movies and so far I've only seen it on the one tape, but I tried to unplug everything, restart the computer and try again and it did it again (but only with that one tape, to my knowledge). Of course it's by far the most important tape I was trying to capture. I'm also blown away by how different my JVC and Panasonic's audio is. The video was pretty good with the JVC but the audio sounds like it's already been cleaned up in Adobe Audition or something. The background his was gone and voices were deeper than normal. I wanted the Panasonic audio because it was more like the "real" sound.