VHS video noise

[Maris 55]

Hello,
Being for the hunt of the perfect capturing VHS tape recorder I recently purchased a Panasonic NV-HS860. Visually it is as new. I opened the case and there was no trace of dust at all anywhere! I have no doubt it is of very little use. Now I started the comparison tests. I compared the playback to a Samsung multimedia monitor Composite and S-Video inputs involving the HS 860 and my trusty reference VHS LG LV-880 HiFi decks. I compared different tapes but my most attention was at a test tape with Colour bars and test patterns. This showed up that my new Panasonic has evidently more noise, but slightly more details. Then I performed a capture test using the same tape with test patterns involving HS860, LG LV880 and Canopus ADVC55. The results were exactly the same.
The same story I had a year ago when I purchased a Blaupunkt RTW-950. But this machine being a clone of Panasonic NV-FS200 is known for it's unpredictable performance due to bad capacitors. HS860 is nearly 10 years newer and does not have this problem. So I am again in a situation where I have my second S-VHS machine outperformed by my VHS LG. And strangely enough in all tests the Composite Output had less noise than the S-Video Out, either on playback on monitor or capture to avi.
To my mind video noise may called by different causes and do have different looks. So I have attached 2 avi files from my capture test. Maybe someone of you folks can tell what can cause the kind of noise seen in the HS-860 capture. The settings for this capture was: TBC- On, 3D DNR- Off. With 3D DNR On the noise amount was about the same on both machines, but with different looks.
Maybe someone has the service manual for HS-860 or can tell how to search for the Head spin hour counter?

[LMotlow]

You're burning up effort and time with test patterns. Once you capture "real" video, a lot will change. Your caps have bad flicker and awful noise. The composite cap is full of herringbne noise and other problems.

Capturing VHS noise to lossy DV is a waste of time. Maybe the DV boys will help you clean up the compression artifacts, but most experienced users who know better won't waste their time on unnecessary problems that could be avoided in the first place.

[Maris 55]

You're burning up effort and time with test patterns. Once you capture "real" video, a lot will change.

What exactly will change when capturing real video? Shall I expect better performance from HS860 in real video capture? I thought it would be easier for me to compare the performance with test patterns captured...

[Maris 55]

Capturing VHS noise to lossy DV is a waste of time. Maybe the DV boys will help you clean up the compression artifacts, but most experienced users who know better won't waste their time on unnecessary problems that could be avoided in the first place.

When performing any tests/comparisons I try to avoid mistakes and sort out every circumstances. Regarding the quality of capturing to DV: I compared the captured avi file with direct Playback from HS-860 this way. I connected the S-Video Out to my multimedia monitor and played back the tape, at the same time playing back the captured avi file with VLC player. Then by switching between the inputs of the monitor I could directly compare the picture. Both were equally bad or good. Based on such real time comparison I would NOT say that the capture to DV had degraded the picture any much.

[KarMa]

It looks like the LG is softer than the Pana, maybe due to NR or it's just naturally softer with less detail. I would suggest using Hollywood VHS tapes for testing fine details over test bars (which we have no idea the source of these bars). If you have Macrovision problems with Hollywood tapes then I would use a good quality home recording of some kind.

[Maris 55]

I would suggest using Hollywood VHS tapes for testing fine details over test bars (which we have no idea the source of these bars).

I have recorded the test tapes by myself on the highest grade Alesis ADAT Master S-VHS casettes. The test patterns came from Sony Vegas through Firewire to Sony miniDV and then to Blaupunkt S-VHS RTW-950 in VHS mode.

[KarMa]

I would suggest using Hollywood VHS tapes for testing fine details over test bars (which we have no idea the source of these bars).

I have recorded the test tapes by myself on the highest grade Alesis ADAT Master S-VHS casettes. The test patterns came from Sony Vegas through Firewire to Sony miniDV and then to Blaupunkt S-VHS RTW-950 in VHS mode.

Good to know how we got that pattern, is it Rec.601? Anyway I would still suggest actual video as we can't tell much from the luma channel with these color bars. Or use a test pattern with a TVL Resolution charts. Like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_resolution#EIA_1956_video_resolution_target

[JVRaines]

I have recorded the test tapes by myself on the highest grade Alesis ADAT Master S-VHS casettes. The test patterns came from Sony Vegas through Firewire to Sony miniDV and then to Blaupunkt S-VHS RTW-950 in VHS mode.

Test patterns are good for aligning equipment. In this case, they are not very useful for that purpose unless you aligned the Blaupunkt first with the manufacturer's test tapes and an oscilloscope. For judging video quality, it's much more helpful to view motion recordings with challenging detail, color, and movement.

[LMotlow]

Ditto.

[Maris 55]

OK, here I have uploaded 2 other clips with a Test pattern.

[manono]

I have an NV-HS860 myself. The Panasonics create the most accurate captures, if done right. They don't smooth the picture as the JVCs with TBCs do. Yes, they show more of the VHS noise but aren't creating any of their own. It's true that capturing as DV AVI using a Canopus box will introduce more noise (and other artifacts, perhaps), but AviSynth denoisers can control it pretty easily. Or capture as a lossless AVI and be certain of getting the best representation of what's on the tape. I always use the S-Video connection.

[amaipaipai]

I create my test patterns for tests and alignments, this Indian pattern was done from scratch.


I recommend the Canopus box to capture VHS, I use the ADVC-100, here a sample from it using S-video, great quality, even better than my Intensity Pro:


Are you seen this noise patterns on the Panasonic?


It's not different from what I've already said in the topic bellow:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/388166-Panasonic-VCR-issues-what-could-it-be#post2513291

This device need a recap, Panasonic's require a special type of Electrolytic, you can't user any standard type. You need to use Aluminum Polymer Capacitor, very low ESR, longer life, no leakage over time. As I've stated on the post above, is necessary to look, check and/or replace the decoupling ceramic capacitors around the signal processing chips or to add if there's none.

[Maris 55]

Are you seen this noise patterns on the Panasonic?


It's not different from what I've already said in the topic bellow:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/388166-Panasonic-VCR-issues-what-could-it-be#post2513291

This device need a recap, Panasonic's require a special type of Electrolytic, you can't user any standard type. You need to use Aluminum Polymer Capacitor, very low ESR, longer life, no leakage over time. As I've stated on the post above, is necessary to look, check and/or replace the decoupling ceramic capacitors around the signal processing chips or to add if there's none.

Is this noise from a faulty Panasonic or from one in a good condition? I assume this is from a faulty one. The noise pattern is the same as in mine HS860, albeit I have much less of it.

I will read your thread ASAP for sure!

I guess I will get all answers about which capacitators to be replaced from your thread. What do you think of my new workflow. It is: Panasonic NV-HS860 with TBC and 3d DNR both ON > Composite to ES-10 In with Analog NR ON > S-Video to Sony miniDV TRV-33 for capture. So there are even 3 Line TBCs in the chain and 2 NR filters in the chain. Isn't this an overkill? But when I look closely, they all do their job!

[amaipaipai]

It is overkill, it can cause problems like ground loops interference/noise when you hook up devices together like this and NR interfering with other NR.

[Attachment 46118 - Click to enlarge]

Check each one individually and avoid this excess of NR.
Is the same if you play a Compact Cassette with NR on, then record the audio with another tape deck with NR on before feed the signal to a capture device.

Keep it simple.

[JVRaines]

I recommend the Canopus box to capture VHS, I use the ADVC-100, here a sample from it using S-video, great quality, even better than my Intensity Pro:

Then why is this image in the wrong aspect ratio?

[amaipaipai]

Then why is this image in the wrong aspect ratio?

It came like this from the broadcaster 12 years ago, never care to correct it because it was a test broadcast for DTV...
Still, Canopus does a very good job capturing that.

[amaipaipai]

To make Canopus justice, here a few samples:

VHS capture using Canopus back in 2002, good enough for the time.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/oq452w1571i294w/ADVC-100_sample.zip/file

This was done with more care, this was the very first official DTV broadcasting, they called João Carlos Martins, he is a classical pianist. He feels pain when he plays the piano, but still he did for the special occasion. He has quite a tragic history.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/wr3ypc5mmo2j55g/ADVC-100_sample2.zip

Both captures done with Canopus ADVC-100 using S-Video.

[KarMa]

They don't smooth the picture as the JVCs with TBCs do.

Sure you were using edit mode with the JVC?

[LMotlow]

.It's really clever the way DV fanboys deinterlace videos, throw away frames, post still photos, and pull other tricks to hide DV noise. Sorry, fellas. That an old carny trick. No cigar.

[manono]

It is: Panasonic NV-HS860 with TBC and 3d DNR both ON > Composite to ES-10 In with Analog NR ON > S-Video to Sony miniDV TRV-33 for capture. So there are even 3 Line TBCs in the chain and 2 NR filters in the chain. Isn't this an overkill? But when I look closely, they all do their job!

Most of that isn't necessary. Don't use analog noise reducers. You can do much better afterwards using AviSynth noise reducers. Run the NV-HS860 to your capture card or device (unless, for some reason you need a frame TBC), and capture using some capture program. I'm using VirtualDub FilterMod these days. If using my Canopus box, then WinDV.

They don't smooth the picture as the JVCs with TBCs do.

Sure you were using edit mode with the JVC?

I've never owned or used one. All I know is what I've learned from picture comparisons and advice and comments from those that do own and use them.

[Maris 55]

[/QUOTE]Good to know how we got that pattern, is it Rec.601? Anyway I would still suggest actual video as we can't tell much from the luma channel with these color bars. Or use a test pattern with a TVL Resolution charts. Like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_resolution#EIA_1956_video_resolution_target[/QUOTE]

Well I made a test tape with EIA 1956 Pattern. Again I don't see that HS-860 would outperform LG LV-880, but I wish it had. Because everyone tells it is the best. And because I payed 10-x more for it.

[KarMa]

I've never owned or used one. All I know is what I've learned from picture comparisons and advice and comments from those that do own and use them.

With the higher end JVC decks they have different modes. I believe they are Sharp/Soft/Normal/Edit. Pretty much the only mode I would ever recommend is Edit as it seems have much less NR and better detail. For a year or two I used Sharp mode until someone here mentioned edit mode and the difference is big. As far as the TBC and DNR being combined together, allegedly the DNR works differently in Edit mode and maybe even only targeting the Chroma.

[JVRaines]

This is a matter of taste and no few holy wars. Sometimes, "detail" is just noise and NR in the machine that knows all about the signal firsthand is better than a bucketful of AviSynth scripts. At least compare Normal and Edit and see which one you like better.

[lordsmurf]

.It's really clever the way DV fanboys deinterlace videos, throw away frames, post still photos, and pull other tricks to hide DV noise. Sorry, fellas. That an old carny trick. No cigar.

He's also PAL 4:2:0, not using the craptastic NTSC 4:1:1 that should be avoided.

[amaipaipai]

.It's really clever the way DV fanboys deinterlace videos, throw away frames, post still photos, and pull other tricks to hide DV noise. Sorry, fellas. That an old carny trick. No cigar.

No problem, let me get home, I can post some raw footage for you.[emoji1303]

[amaipaipai]

.It's really clever the way DV fanboys deinterlace videos, throw away frames, post still photos, and pull other tricks to hide DV noise. Sorry, fellas. That an old carny trick. No cigar.

Here, captures from NTSC source using S-Video signal, no tricks, no filters, all raw material from Canopus ADVC-100.



https://mega.nz/#!a0ZGRLaL!brwdhJhdhELiPo209uWB12iVvugw_KcV51jyBrb0No0
https://mega.nz/#!P1BhSR6B!r0ugf3H_Xs5cCcorn-NyZksMJGb40M2Gkq-8lU-gjKQ
https://mega.nz/#!60YSmBDB!hiFKdjf4JQU2FIkEX9b7bRBM_fpnCEC7DbNG-CN-MIg

[Maris 55]

Hi,

The re-caping is a job I am not brave enough to do by myself. I would rather want to know what is the count of working hours of my NV-HS860. I guess the caps are drying out only during the working hours, right? This machine looks like have very little use. Can someone please tell how to access the hour counter? I downloaded the service manual, but can't find how to check this.
The other thing makes me crazy is the Tape ID number check every time when a cassette is loaded. I must wait some 10 sec. for it, or I can simply push Play to stop it. But I would preffer to disable this function permanently.

[JVRaines]

If it's not in the service manual, then there is no hours counter.
I believe you can defeat the ID check if you break off the record safety tab.

[LMotlow]

Here, captures from NTSC source using S-Video signal, no tricks, no filters, all raw material from Canopus ADVC-100.
https://mega.nz/#!a0ZGRLaL!brwdhJhdhELiPo209uWB12iVvugw_KcV51jyBrb0No0
https://mega.nz/#!P1BhSR6B!r0ugf3H_Xs5cCcorn-NyZksMJGb40M2Gkq-8lU-gjKQ
https://mega.nz/#!60YSmBDB!hiFKdjf4JQU2FIkEX9b7bRBM_fpnCEC7DbNG-CN-MIg

Nope, no cigar. It's obvious that DV fans know little (likely nothing) about black levels and whatnot, and don't know how to play DV on anything excepty a PC (have you heard that Tv's and other playbacxk systems have been invented since the early 90's?). By the time your blow-out highlights and lost color density gets translated into distributable formats with added encoding losses, you'll lose a lot from what is already lost. Pristine sources like 2 and 3 won't look that bad, if you lower your bar enough. And where are the noisy home-made family video samples?

That anime needs some serious work. Starting out as lossy DV, it can only look worse by the time you're through with it.

And come to think of it, the sample with grandma isn't interlaced. Not only are there no typical home-mades, but where are the lossless versions of the same sources? You mean you've never seen a lossless capture and don't know how to make one? Where's the tech info on how the caps were made? Talk about the usual DV runaround.

[Maris 55]

I believe you can defeat the ID check if you break off the record safety tab.

If I break off the record safety tab, then yes the playback starts imediately. But that's what I don't like too.
I don't like to wait for the tape ID check and I don't like the playback starts when I don't like it starts.