CMC manufacturing Taiyo-Yuden DVDs?

[Seeker47]

What are the latest reports on Verbatim dual-layer AZO ? (Not Life Series.) Still Made in Taiwan, still reliable ?
Still 8X rated ? (Although I did not burn them at more than a 4X setting.) Where did you order them from ?
I don't want to order what turn out to be the wrong ones and then have to return them.

[It appears that the Verb. part # @ Rima has changed, for example.]

[lingyi]

Thanks again for this informative thread.

Something positive to report by me, finally, is that I bought a package of CMC T-Y DVD-R on Amazon as well as a new spindle of Verbatim +R AZOs and after burning about 10 discs of each, have had NO BAD DISCS AT ALL. All have played fine in my cursory checks and all have scanned fine with Discspeed, lowest rating so far of about 84 with the verbatims and 90 with the T-Ys. Cause for celebration after 4 spindles of the Ritek Smartbuys where I didn't get more than 20 usable discs out of each 100 pack set with most results either down to 0, a high of 10, or not even being recognizable at all in any disc drive or standalone player.

I still believe it is a crapshoot based on many factors outside our control, that even if the media might be "good" or somewhat "consistent" seems like that can vary based on factors like how long that spindle might have been sitting around b4 it was shipped to you, or what conditions it was subject to in storage or shipping. I guess we can only try to use "good" media then hope it was either manufactured well, stored well, etc etc.

Could you post the manufacture date or the media codes so hopefully someone can figure out the manufacture date as discussed here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/384560-decipher-the-manufacturing-year-of-my-mdisc-media

I suspect the TY and AZO discs aren't in high demand by the general public and may be old stock. As lordsmurf stated above, high heat/humidity and light = improper storage = possible conditions in a warehouse.

What are the latest reports on Verbatim dual-layer AZO ? (Not Life Series.) Still Made in Taiwan, still reliable ?
Still 8X rated ? (Although I did not burn them at more than a 4X setting.) Where did you order them from ?
I don't want to order what turn out to be the wrong ones and then have to return them.

[It appears that the Verb. part # @ Rima has changed, for example.]

AFAIK, the CMC factory is only in Taiwan and the all other factories that made AZO discs are long gone.

[lordsmurf]

AFAIK, the CMC factory is only in Taiwan and the all other factories that made AZO discs are long gone.

Historic =
- CMC Magnetics, Taiwan
- Moser Baer (MBI), India
- Prodisc Technology, Taiwan
- Falcon Technologies (FTI), United Arab Emirates (UAE)

CMC obviously still around, making not just their own CMC media (still crap), but also MCC/MKM, TY, and maybe some others. It became cheaper for other manufacturers to export their labor and facilities to CMC, and just give them specs and supplies for the discs. CMC is a publicly traded company, and you can see some of their dealings in the disclosure filings. They have negative income, negative profit, negative growth, but sustained sales/cashflow with billions in assets. Their stock trades for about 33% of what it did a decade ago.

Prodisc is MIA, believed to be defunct, another recession victim. I've not seen non-NOS Prodisc at all in the 2010s; and I don't even mean MCC/MKM. The only place where I know to find Prodisc MID DVD still is at Americal.com. They must have over-ordered tons of it. Question is, how good is the warehouse storage? Post-4x Prodisc was always 2nd class, meaning already marginal. Not bad, just not great. Add in heat and humidity, and it'll quickly become cakes of coasters.

FTI exists, and makes MKM DVD+R DL. Everything else is FTI media (using licensed TDK MID), or Ritek.

MBI stills makes MCC/MKM media, but I'm not sure if it's exported outside India these days. Maybe Europe, elsewhere in Asia? I've not seen any in North America for years.

[lingyi]

To clarify, CMC in Taiwan in the sole manufacturer of AZO discs, correct?

What about Singapore? Is the factory still there? They stopped making AZO discs years ago. Are they still around?

[lordsmurf]

The Singapore plant was always for R&D-type initial production. I'm not sure if it's still around, but I'm betting it is. At least the facility. I'm not sure if it still does optical, or was retrofitted for something new.

No, I don't think CMC exclusively makes the AZO. MBI and FTI both have some currently.

[Seeker47]

The Singapore plant was always for R&D-type initial production. I'm not sure if it's still around, but I'm betting it is. At least the facility. I'm not sure if it still does optical, or was retrofitted for something new.

No, I don't think CMC exclusively makes the AZO. MBI and FTI both have some currently.

Still leaves the question: from WHERE to order the Verb. AZO dual-layer (if there remains any such place), with the best chance of getting in-good-condition stock of the correct blank discs ? I have bookmarks for Rima, NewEgg, & Amazon -- but I'm open to any better options that may exist.

[lingyi]

Are you sure the Verbatims were AZO? I haven't bought and discs in years, but I've read that some of the non-AZO discs are now sold in the orange and purple packaging and the the AZO logo on the real packs are still there though smaller.

As for your Smartbuys, it's like any other direct non-manufacturer labeled disc, even though it's Ritek, it could be from any of their various lines (passable to utter junk).

Also, have you tried using another burner? Yours may be failing. Also, burn only with Imgburn.

I would guess that the reportedly new smaller AZO logo would be newer stock. Hopefully slipkid will provide some info (ideally photos) of the wrapping his 'good' AZOs came in.

Purely out of curiosity for me since it's been years since I've burned a disc and I don't even know exactly where my blanks are!

[slipkid]

Could you post the manufacture date or the media codes so hopefully someone can figure out the manufacture date as discussed here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/384560-decipher-the-manufacturing-year-of-my-mdisc-media

Give me some time & I'll try looking at that thread next week, am working 12 hour shifts all weekend so no time right now, until days off next Tuesday/Wed....I can tell you this so far real quick...

Packaging says "Verbatim #95098 1606-203" above the UPC barcode.

That UPC is "023942 950981".

Packaging says "Made in Taiwan" and at the very bottom says "Verbatim Americas LLC 2016".

Nero DiscSpeed reads them as "Verbatim MCC 004 000 (00h)".

[slipkid]

Still leaves the question: from WHERE to order the Verb. AZO dual-layer (if there remains any such place), with the best chance of getting in-good-condition stock of the correct blank discs ? I have bookmarks for Rima, NewEgg, & Amazon -- but I'm open to any better options that may exist.

The spindle I got came from Amazon here:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003ZDNZSS/

Based on what I noted above with "2016" on the wrapper I assume they are no older than 2016 but in theory I guess they could be newer too if that was some kind of copyright thing rather than supposed to be a "birthdate" (?). I don't have the wrapper still for the spindle I bought like 2 years ago which drove me crazy with bad burns, so I can't compare those.

It is single layer though, you may be asking about dual layer (?).

[Seeker47]

Still leaves the question: from WHERE to order the Verb. AZO dual-layer (if there remains any such place), with the best chance of getting in-good-condition stock of the correct blank discs ? I have bookmarks for Rima, NewEgg, & Amazon -- but I'm open to any better options that may exist.

The spindle I got came from Amazon here:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003ZDNZSS/

Based on what I noted above with "2016" on the wrapper I assume they are no older than 2016 but in theory I guess they could be newer too if that was some kind of copyright thing rather than supposed to be a "birthdate" (?). I don't have the wrapper still for the spindle I bought like 2 years ago which drove me crazy with bad burns, so I can't compare those.

It is single layer though, you may be asking about dual layer (?).

Yes, Dual Layer. A couple of my last -- now empty -- 30-spindles show Verb #96542 on the label, 'Made in Singapore.' Where all my previous purchases were from, but I've probably had those for quite some time. Never bothered to scan them with a disc utility like DiscSpeed . . ., but Imgburn likely provides that info as well, when you load a disc ? I think I may be out of any remaining personal stock on those now, but will have to look around to be sure.

Verbatim sells BR blank media in 25 & 50 Gb. sizes also. Not sure what the production or quality story is on those, though.

[Seeker47]

Bump: I am left even more dubious, insofar as Amazon has several product listings for this (for a spindle of the same size),

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Verbatim+%2396542

ranging from $30. to ~ $60. Something doesn't feel right about this.

[lingyi]

Bump: I am left even more dubious, insofar as Amazon has several product listings for this (for a spindle of the same size),

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Verbatim+%2396542

ranging from $30. to ~ $60. Something doesn't feel right about this.

This is typical of Amazon. There are multiple sellers of the same product. One of the things to look for is Prime Shipping. Most of the products with Prime Shipping are directly from Amazon. This https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-DVD-8-5GB-Branded-Surface/dp/B001D8OGOO/ref=sr_1_5?ie=...batim+%2396542 and this https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-DVD-8-5GB-Branded-Surface/dp/B005F2YPH2/ref=sr_1_5?ie=...B%2396542&th=1 are sold and shipped from Amazon.

[Seeker47]

Bump: I am left even more dubious, insofar as Amazon has several product listings for this (for a spindle of the same size),

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Verbatim+%2396542

ranging from $30. to ~ $60. Something doesn't feel right about this.

This is typical of Amazon. There are multiple sellers of the same product. One of the things to look for is Prime Shipping. Most of the products with Prime Shipping are directly from Amazon. This https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-DVD-8-5GB-Branded-Surface/dp/B001D8OGOO/ref=sr_1_5?ie=...batim+%2396542 and this https://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-DVD-8-5GB-Branded-Surface/dp/B005F2YPH2/ref=sr_1_5?ie=...B%2396542&th=1 are sold and shipped from Amazon.

Well, I just dropped $40. on one of your above links (the 50 spindle), and they are Verbatim 97000, made in the UAE. That's probably better than Made in India or China, but I'm likely to send them back nonetheless. Suppose I ordered from NewEgg or Rima instead: Can I no longer obtain the Made in Singapore Verb DL discs ?

[lingyi]

The Singapore plant was always for R&D-type initial production. I'm not sure if it's still around, but I'm betting it is. At least the facility. I'm not sure if it still does optical, or was retrofitted for something new.

No, I don't think CMC exclusively makes the AZO. MBI and FTI both have some currently.

Seems like the Singapore discs are long gone.

Also:

AFAIK, the CMC factory is only in Taiwan and the all other factories that made AZO discs are long gone.

Historic =
- CMC Magnetics, Taiwan
- Moser Baer (MBI), India
- Prodisc Technology, Taiwan
- Falcon Technologies (FTI), United Arab Emirates (UAE)

CMC obviously still around, making not just their own CMC media (still crap), but also MCC/MKM, TY, and maybe some others. It became cheaper for other manufacturers to export their labor and facilities to CMC, and just give them specs and supplies for the discs. CMC is a publicly traded company, and you can see some of their dealings in the disclosure filings. They have negative income, negative profit, negative growth, but sustained sales/cashflow with billions in assets. Their stock trades for about 33% of what it did a decade ago.

Prodisc is MIA, believed to be defunct, another recession victim. I've not seen non-NOS Prodisc at all in the 2010s; and I don't even mean MCC/MKM. The only place where I know to find Prodisc MID DVD still is at Americal.com. They must have over-ordered tons of it. Question is, how good is the warehouse storage? Post-4x Prodisc was always 2nd class, meaning already marginal. Not bad, just not great. Add in heat and humidity, and it'll quickly become cakes of coasters.

FTI exists, and makes MKM DVD+R DL. Everything else is FTI media (using licensed TDK MID), or Ritek.

MBI stills makes MCC/MKM media, but I'm not sure if it's exported outside India these days. Maybe Europe, elsewhere in Asia? I've not seen any in North America for years.

[Seeker47]

I visited the disc blanks page at lordsmurf's site

http://dfaq.us/vh-media

(which has apparently not been updated for a few years ?), and he seemed to be indicating that there was nothing to worry about in regard to the Verb AZO DLs from sources like UAE. But, I'd prefer to hear current reports from him -- and others -- on this score. And, if anyone knows of extant sources for the Made in Singapore (or Made in Taiwan ?) variety, I would much appreciate that info.

[lingyi]

From the customer questions and answers section on Amazon, it seems they're made exclusively in UAE as of 2015, possibly late 2014. No reports of any made in Taiwan. So if someone does have available Made in Singapore stock, they would be at least 4 years old, stored under unknown conditions.

Hopefully others will chime in with their opinions and experiences.

[lingyi]

I visited the disc blanks page at lordsmurf's site

http://dfaq.us/vh-media

(which has apparently not been updated for a few years ?), and he seemed to be indicating that there was nothing to worry about in regard to the Verb AZO DLs from sources like UAE. But, I'd prefer to hear current reports from him -- and others -- on this score. And, if anyone knows of extant sources for the Made in Singapore (or Made in Taiwan ?) variety, I would much appreciate that info.

Writable DVD media has reached the point where there's good (Verbatim AZO, TY) and not so good/bad (everything else). If the UAE DL discs were bad, we'd see numerous threads here and at digitalfaq about it since they're the only good DL media available (TY doesn't make DL discs).

Since you and I are only ones actively posting on this thread, I recommend starting a new thread with your questions and concerns.

*Looks over shoulder as lordsmurf will suddenly appear and post here*

[bloodmark]

For what it’s worth, everything I’ve done the past few months with the CMC TY discs has resulted in zero bad discs. Verbatims have been about 20% failures. Sticking with CMC TY going forward.

[Seeker47]

O.K., good to hear. I had bought substantial quantities of the Made in Singapore Verb DLs, as well as TYGO2 & TYGO3 . . . but then I've used most of it, so in retrospect I should have bought even more, while the getting was good ! Never really exploited Blu-Ray as an option though perhaps I should have, and I have steadily defaulted more towards redundant HDD & memory stick storage, but those DVDs are still an important medium -- at least to me. I also use DVD RW (preferably the TDK 4x, which has all but disappeared -- had to get my last order of that from the U.K.) as a bridge for xfer to HDD.

[slipkid]

For what it’s worth, everything I’ve done the past few months with the CMC TY discs has resulted in zero bad discs. Verbatims have been about 20% failures. Sticking with CMC TY going forward.

I will never ever go back to Verbatims. Some of my recent (last year or whatever) spindles were something like 80% bad discs! Just godawful.

Am buying only T-Y/CMC's for past year or so and think I had only about 5% bad discs (if that). That being said a recent pack of 100 had 10 in a row that were bad, one even had a weird shape of dye extending from the inner ring into the disc.

Nevertheless, even at twice the price of the Verbatims I get about 80 more good discs for every pack of 100 so it has been well worth it.

[lordsmurf]

*Looks over shoulder as lordsmurf will suddenly appear and post here*

Here.

I will never ever go back to Verbatims. Some of my recent (last year or whatever) spindles were something like 80% bad discs! Just godawful.
That being said a recent pack of 100 had 10 in a row that were bad, one even had a weird shape of dye extending from the inner ring into the disc.

Verbatims have been about 20% failures.

You're jumping to bad conclusions here.

There's 3 main factors to understand:

(1) Most people fail to realize that drives age, and quite badly, used or not. The drive guts are affected by environmental conditions, including moisture, tobacco smoke, and dust. This has a very negative consequence to the drive, and you'll get erratic behavior even on known-good discs.

(2) Discs age, used or not, and storage conditions matter. When were the bad discs manufactured? And where were they store -- both BEFORE you bought them, and after. This information can be harder to acquire, but matters for longevity studies.

(3) Statistics matter. If a Verbatim MCC/MKM generally has a 95-99% success rate, and you get a 100% success rate on a spindle, it means that you're ahead by 4-5%. But are you really? What it may mean is that a subsequent spindle could have a 91% success rate, though it's not overly likely. If you're a low=volume users, and acquire such a spindle, you may form an unfavorable view simply because you had a statistical outlier anomaly. Remember, even a coin flip isn't 50/50, something else commonly misunderstood about statistics. (FYI: At best, it's 51/49.)

So suggesting media isn't good because of a mere spindle, or without verifying other variables, is bad science.

Bad science is what created the "bad batch" myth in the 2000s (which had since largely disappeared from media conversations, and good riddance).

so in retrospect I should have bought even more, while the getting was good !

I burn less discs these days, and do not miss it. I hated living my life 15 minutes at a time, while waiting on burns. That said, I still have a stock of blank discs that would easily rival the lifetime supply of 99% of users. The oldest ones are 4x PVC blanks.

[slipkid]

*Looks over shoulder as lordsmurf will suddenly appear and post here*

Here.

I will never ever go back to Verbatims. Some of my recent (last year or whatever) spindles were something like 80% bad discs! Just godawful.
That being said a recent pack of 100 had 10 in a row that were bad, one even had a weird shape of dye extending from the inner ring into the disc.

Verbatims have been about 20% failures.

You're jumping to bad conclusions here.

There's 3 main factors to understand:

(1) Most people fail to realize that drives age, and quite badly, used or not. The drive guts are affected by environmental conditions, including moisture, tobacco smoke, and dust. This has a very negative consequence to the drive, and you'll get erratic behavior even on known-good discs.

(2) Discs age, used or not, and storage conditions matter. When were the bad discs manufactured? And where were they store -- both BEFORE you bought them, and after. This information can be harder to acquire, but matters for longevity studies.

(3) Statistics matter. If a Verbatim MCC/MKM generally has a 95-99% success rate, and you get a 100% success rate on a spindle, it means that you're ahead by 4-5%. But are you really? What it may mean is that a subsequent spindle could have a 91% success rate, though it's not overly likely. If you're a low=volume users, and acquire such a spindle, you may form an unfavorable view simply because you had a statistical outlier anomaly. Remember, even a coin flip isn't 50/50, something else commonly misunderstood about statistics. (FYI: At best, it's 51/49.)

So suggesting media isn't good because of a mere spindle, or without verifying other variables, is bad science.

Bad science is what created the "bad batch" myth in the 2000s (which had since largely disappeared from media conversations, and good riddance).

I tried multiple spindles of Verbatims b4 I finally gave up and tried something else. Think I commented on it earlier in this thread (or maybe it was somewhere else, I 4get) and theorized that bunch of stuff might be the issue, for example either (1) they were just making crap now, (2) the discs that I was buying were stored improperly by the vendors like being too hot or too cold or who knows what, (3) the discs were old stock & had degraded over time, & that since I had problems in multiple different drives including buying new ones I ruled out it being a problem with my system(s). So I do not think I was judging on "bad science" in my conclusion that Verbatims just are no longer any good/not worth throwing $$ away on (when they always used to be GREAT!). Add to that multiple reviewers on Amazon were saying the same thing around the same time, similar bad experiences by other buyers who said they never had problems b4...

[lordsmurf]

multiple reviewers on Amazon were saying the same thing

Amazon reviewers are just people, usually casual users with limited knowledge, and the reviews are more statements on themselves than the products.

theorized that

Actually, that's not a theory. What you have now are mere hypothesis. To get an actual theory, we'd have to experiment/test, and under controlled conditions that eliminated variables. Only after that's done can we form a theory.

Because science.

bunch of stuff might be the issue, for example either (1) they were just making crap now, (2) the discs that I was buying were stored improperly by the vendors like being too hot or too cold or who knows what, (3) the discs were old stock & had degraded over time, & that since I had problems in multiple different drives including buying new ones I ruled out it being a problem with my system(s). So I do not think I was judging on "bad science"

Well, you had good hypotheses ... then jumped to a brash conclusion by blaming the media. Sure, you had issues, it sucks, it wastes money, but the media may not be the issue whatsoever. That's the "bad science" part. I've tested media for at least 20 years now, and it's never a simple case of blindly blaming something. That's how we gets myths, logical fallacies, and re-parroting online -- of which Amazon reviews are often guilty.

The inverse is also true, which led to all the "CMC is great" and "Ritek is best" nonsense that screwed over so many people years ago. It also helped the fake media industry pre-recession, people blindly praises fake TYG02/MCC/etc media.

[Seeker47]

so in retrospect I should have bought even more, while the getting was good !

I burn less discs these days, and do not miss it. I hated living my life 15 minutes at a time, while waiting on burns. That said, I still have a stock of blank discs that would easily rival the lifetime supply of 99% of users. The oldest ones are 4x PVC blanks.

The "15 minutes" is not that big a deal: stretch your legs, go check on the laundry in the dryer or something.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but so far the failed discs (blanks or recorded on, going back quite a few years) have been amazingly few for me. I still need to burn discs, in the Pioneer DVDRs and on the computer, though considerably less than was once the case. My oldest discs are probably also 4x, outlier brands like Fuji and certain others. (Did Plextor once have their own discs ?) If some more go bad, I will note that here. Even then, absent some major dye level (?) collapse, it might still be possible to salvage the contents by lifting them off to somewhere else, using IsoBuster ?

[Gank]

I still burn CD's because they have better quality sound than any other streaming source. I rip and burn CD's in WAVE lossless format and not compressed like Amazon downloads and they sound so much better! Full file for audiophile quality and HiFi systems. So, I'm trying to find the highest quality CD blanks I can get. JVC - Taiyo Yuden so far seem to be but on this forum I see where some feel Verbatim or CMC TY are as good. What do you say? Thanks.

Dinosaur with good audio quality!

What to buy in 2018 is easy. These:
- https://amzn.to/2MaQA1O
- https://amzn.to/2sR3Pw3

Retail use of blank tape in 90s dwarfed the 80s. It was affordable and cheap -- but for the cheap quality. I use to laugh at the Sony-branded "Premium" tapes that were just standard grade. Not the worst tapes, but not the best. As the 90s progressed, the Sony tapes digressed in quality. Same for the Fuji Pro tapes via mail order -- complete crap. As with blank opticals, you have to learn about tapes to not buy junk. It's really not any different. The marketing didn't hit all brands, all grades, just a few bad apples.

For optical, nothing has changed in 5-10 years. Still TY/YUDEN, still MKM/MCC, still NOS/new-old-stock PVC/TDK/MXL/etc.

For Verbatim MCC/MKM, it's often as easy as NOT find "Life Series", not just hunting for a tiny AZO logo.

I've never understood the hate for LTH BD-R. It was more about disc quality, not the LTH vs HTL.

CD-R failure is real, not legend. I have a lot of bad discs, going all the way back to 1995. I keep those for scanning and research. Although I've never had time to publish my CD-R buying guides, I've long had research on them. Since I hated VCD, and video is my main area, it just never was a priority. Who still burns CDs anyway? Even 10-15 years ago?

[Seeker47]

And I still burn a fair amount of music onto CD, mainly for listening in the car while driving. My main problem is that a lot of the material I am finding these days is 24-bit, and I have not yet learned how to convert that so it will play on the car system to best effect. Otherwise it won't go onto a CD (?) It's supposed to be a top of the line sound system, but I think they still don't support 24-bit, no matter what media it is played from. In the past I had tested that with flashdrives. But I just exchanged a 2017 leased vehicle for a 2020 model, so maybe it's time for a re-test.

Verbatim was the best that I could readily find in CD blanks, maybe scarcer now ? Saw some "Philips" not long ago, not sure what that was. The last spindle I bought was HP. I forget what that turns out to be, but ImgBurn should report on that, the next time I burn one.

[lordsmurf]

I still burn CD's because they have better quality sound

That's not necessarily true. It's all about the source and mastery. Death Magnetic by Metallica is a great example of a bad CD, levels distort. The music was later released as streams on a video game, and that's what Metallica fans prefer. It's unmolested, not ruined sound.

See also: Myth about vinyl (as a medium) being "better". It's not. Some albums can be, but it has almost nothing to do with the platter itself.

[Seeker47]

I still burn CD's because they have better quality sound

That's not necessarily true. It's all about the source and mastery. Death Magnetic by Metallica is a great example of a bad CD, levels distort. The music was later released as streams on a video game, and that's what Metallica fans prefer. It's unmolested, not ruined sound.

See also: Myth about vinyl (as a medium) being "better". It's not. Some albums can be, but it has almost nothing to do with the platter itself.

Plenty of variables on the vinyl side too. See, just for example: MFSL 180 Gram Audiophile 1/2 Speed releases (not all of them great, however); Chesky label Jazz; Linn records. It could also make a huge difference in what your playback chain was. The best turntables, arms, and cartridges were far from inexpensive . . . and then all the remaining gear down the chain from there, all the way to the speakers. This ain't what your run of the mill home setup had access to back in the day, nor what your local DJ is apt to be using either. Most people would have no basis for comparison, because they never got to experience it, or they did not care that much, and consequently their standards were set way lower.

[pitterbrayn]

The ultimate stupidity of everything chasing the cheapest alternative always disturbed (and kinda baffled ) me. What good is a cheap solution that all-too-soon craps out on you ? One pays at least twice for cheap crap (buying again to replace whatever it was) . . . and that does not even factor in the possibility of something highly valuable being irretrievably lost in the process.

[Seeker47]

The ultimate stupidity of everything chasing the cheapest alternative always disturbed (and kinda baffled ) me. What good is a cheap solution that all-too-soon craps out on you ? One pays at least twice for cheap crap (buying again to replace whatever it was) . . . and that does not even factor in the possibility of something highly valuable being irretrievably lost in the process.

This has long been my guiding principle on purchases.