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  1. Member
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    Hello,
    My standard capturing workflow is:
    LG LV880 HiFI VCR > Panasonic DVR ES-10 in Passthrough> Sony TRV33 miniDV in Passthrough and as the Converter to .avi DV by Firewire to PC.
    This is my favourite setup I am glad with. But I have a Canopus ADVC-55 as well which I can use instead of Sony miniDV. Canopus produces equal quality, is smaller, lighter, except for one problem- sometimes I have VHS tapes which capturing Canopus has dropouts. I have 4 VCRs and the results differ. Sometimes the exchange of the VCR helps, but sometimes not. I encountered this problem with Canopus ADVC-110 first. I thought it was faulty and bought ADVC-55, but with no luck. The same tapes produced the same dropouts as if those Canopuses were twins.
    It's time to tell that there is no problem of this kind when switching from Canopus to Sony miniDV. I would drop the Canopus, but sometimes I get a MeSECAM or SECAM tapes and Canopus works with them. Sony is only for PAL. For what I am posting this thread is that I wonder- I have read hundreds of threads about Canopus and noone has mentioned this same problem. How can it be on Earth that I get VHS tapes from different people (99% PAL) and from time to time encounter this problem with Canopus, but noone else has?

    Regards,
    Maris
    Panasonic NV-HS860, LG LV 880 HiFi 6 Head, Sony SLV-SE 630 HiFi, LG BL-162W, Sony TRV33E miniDV for Capture, Canopus ADVC 55, Panasonic DMR-ES10, Sony Vegas Pro12, WinDV
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  2. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Explain what you mean as 'Drop outs' Dropped frames ? Signal Loss ? or something else.
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    Well the video jumps ahead and the same goes for Audio. You can see it and hear it. For instance some letters are missing in a word. The video plays not smoothly but with jumps.
    Here I uploaded a most severe case. I hope my upload succeded.
    Image Attached Files
    Panasonic NV-HS860, LG LV 880 HiFi 6 Head, Sony SLV-SE 630 HiFi, LG BL-162W, Sony TRV33E miniDV for Capture, Canopus ADVC 55, Panasonic DMR-ES10, Sony Vegas Pro12, WinDV
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    I must say that I have used 2 different PCs and one laptop for capturing, using both WinDV and Sony Vegas Pro 12 64 Bit. So different Firewire cards too. Here is another video with less pronounced dropouts. The audio and video remains in sync even for 2 hours though.
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    Panasonic NV-HS860, LG LV 880 HiFi 6 Head, Sony SLV-SE 630 HiFi, LG BL-162W, Sony TRV33E miniDV for Capture, Canopus ADVC 55, Panasonic DMR-ES10, Sony Vegas Pro12, WinDV
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  5. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Well it's dropped frames either due to a poor signal from the VCR or your HDD can not keep up with the capture.

    I trust you are capturing to a HDD that does not hold your OS. I also trust that these mp4's are not the original capture ie a transcode from dv (think you already answered that one in your initial post but then you brought Vegas in to the mix)
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    Well I guess the first video Nac un vizi is a 1st grade copy from a Pro Betacam produced in a TV studio. So can't be a bad signal. And then it was captured to Canopus by 3 different VCRs. All 3 PCs have split HDDs in C:/ for Windows and D:/ for Data. The PCs are rather new, i-5 and i-3, SATA HDD. Yes, I captured as .avi DV 25Mbps and then Rendered to mp4.
    Panasonic NV-HS860, LG LV 880 HiFi 6 Head, Sony SLV-SE 630 HiFi, LG BL-162W, Sony TRV33E miniDV for Capture, Canopus ADVC 55, Panasonic DMR-ES10, Sony Vegas Pro12, WinDV
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  7. Member DB83's Avatar
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    You mis-understand. It's not the quality of the picture (or it's original source) but the relationship between the VCR output through the various pass-throughs.

    I do not understand why you need both a DVD-recorder and a MiniDV in the capture chain. Both should provide as a TBC so I wonder if one is conflicting with the other.

    Have you also tried the capture without either ?

    I use a ADVC 300 and, to be honest, have never dropped a frame and some of the source material was pretty poor.
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    Both videos were captured by VCRs conected directly to Canopus. Neither Panasonic ES-10 or Sony miniDV were involved. Now I use Sony miniDV instead of Canopus.
    VCR > Composite Video Output> Canopus ADVC 110/55 > Firewire > PC Win 7 64 Bit / Win XP > WinDV
    Last edited by Maris 55; 19th May 2018 at 14:53.
    Panasonic NV-HS860, LG LV 880 HiFi 6 Head, Sony SLV-SE 630 HiFi, LG BL-162W, Sony TRV33E miniDV for Capture, Canopus ADVC 55, Panasonic DMR-ES10, Sony Vegas Pro12, WinDV
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  9. Member DB83's Avatar
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    OK. But that now conflicts with your original statement re workflow.

    Maybe others will have different ideas. I still think tho that is down to a poor cable signal.
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    Is the capture occurring on the d: partition? Is that the same physical HDD as the system? That could be a problem if so.
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    OK. But that now conflicts with your original statement re workflow.

    Maybe others will have different ideas. I still think tho that is down to a poor cable signal.
    Read carefully! That is my current workflow described in my 1st post. The signal goes through Panasonic DVR ES-10 > S-Video > Sony miniDV. And there are no conflicts. That same VHS tape is captured without a single problem!
    Panasonic NV-HS860, LG LV 880 HiFi 6 Head, Sony SLV-SE 630 HiFi, LG BL-162W, Sony TRV33E miniDV for Capture, Canopus ADVC 55, Panasonic DMR-ES10, Sony Vegas Pro12, WinDV
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    Originally Posted by davexnet View Post
    Is the capture occurring on the d: partition? Is that the same physical HDD as the system? That could be a problem if so.
    The system is on partion C and I capture on partition D of the same physical HDD. These are fast SATA disks and 3 different PCs are involved. I have captured even on external USB HDD with an old laptop without problems. And then the problems are replicable only with the same VHS tapes, not all of them. I can take this tape, any VCR directly to Canopus and any PC or laptop and the same dropouts ocure. Now and then I meet other tapes which behave the same when Canopus is involved. I have basically 2 workplaces and Canopus is in one of them, but my current prefered workflow is setup at home.
    I do work with music mixing and it is usual that I have some 25 + audio tracks running at the same time with some 50 plugins without a single glitch! The mixing workstation can show the HDD load then and it is mediocre.
    Last edited by Maris 55; 19th May 2018 at 15:34.
    Panasonic NV-HS860, LG LV 880 HiFi 6 Head, Sony SLV-SE 630 HiFi, LG BL-162W, Sony TRV33E miniDV for Capture, Canopus ADVC 55, Panasonic DMR-ES10, Sony Vegas Pro12, WinDV
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  13. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Well I did read carefully and have now re-read it.

    If you have captured the tape with no issues why raise the problem and post a sample with the issue and from a different capture work-flow ?
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Well I did read carefully and have now re-read it.

    If you have captured the tape with no issues why raise the problem and post a sample with the issue and from a different capture work-flow ?
    Because you know- capturing to PC, editing, improving picture and sound and then rendering to mp4 is very time consuming. That's why I like the fact that I do have 2 workplaces because more job can be done in the background. And so I capture through Sony miniDV at one place and would like to use Canopus at the other. But I can't trust the Canopus, that's the problem. Sometimes the dropouts are so minor that I even can't tell if the capture is OK or not. When there is a motion going on and no speach or music it's hard to tell.
    So I wonder how it can be, there must be many thousands, maybe tens of thousands of Canopus users and only I have this sort of problem? Today I made a decision to sell this one and buy another the next Canopus ADVC-55. I found one as new. If the same problem persists I will switch to another miniDV. They are VERY good for DV capture. Noone can tell but it is possible that they have some TBC built in. I have kept the problematic tape so I can test it in diferent combinations and with new equipment.
    From what I have read in this forum and Digitalfaq forum people are experimenting a lot with diferent workflows in oder to get the best results or owercome a problem when capturing.
    Last edited by Maris 55; 12th Jul 2018 at 14:36.
    Panasonic NV-HS860, LG LV 880 HiFi 6 Head, Sony SLV-SE 630 HiFi, LG BL-162W, Sony TRV33E miniDV for Capture, Canopus ADVC 55, Panasonic DMR-ES10, Sony Vegas Pro12, WinDV
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    The main problem is the NTSC colospace compression. 4:1:1 really degrades color quality. But you're apparently PAL, which is 4:2:0, and not that bad, like DVD-Video. It's still not great for editing or restoration, as 4:2:2 is superior.

    Your issue appears to be simple lack of TBC. The Canopus DV boxes will drop frames like any other capture card anytime the tape hiccups or sneezes (which is often, everything few minutes, at least).
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Well I did read carefully and have now re-read it.

    If you have captured the tape with no issues why raise the problem and post a sample with the issue and from a different capture work-flow ?
    Well I forgot to mention one more major reason for still using Canopus while preffering Sony miniDV for capture.
    Sony TRV-33 miniDV is ONLY PAL. But from time to time I also meet NTSC and MeSECAM VHS tapes. Canopus accepts all 3 colour standards. So I capture PAL tapes with Sony miniDV, but NTSC with Canopus. Not 100% shure which one does MeSECAM capture.
    Panasonic NV-HS860, LG LV 880 HiFi 6 Head, Sony SLV-SE 630 HiFi, LG BL-162W, Sony TRV33E miniDV for Capture, Canopus ADVC 55, Panasonic DMR-ES10, Sony Vegas Pro12, WinDV
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Your issue appears to be simple lack of TBC. The Canopus DV boxes will drop frames like any other capture card anytime the tape hiccups or sneezes (which is often, everything few minutes, at least).
    I have read here that Panasonic ES-10 Passthrough can eliminate the need for external TBC? If so now I do use ES-10 in my capturing chain. I must check once more the combination of ES-10 > Canopus ADVC-55 with a problematic tape because I don't remember if I had the ES-10 at that time.
    Panasonic NV-HS860, LG LV 880 HiFi 6 Head, Sony SLV-SE 630 HiFi, LG BL-162W, Sony TRV33E miniDV for Capture, Canopus ADVC 55, Panasonic DMR-ES10, Sony Vegas Pro12, WinDV
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    Originally Posted by Maris 55 View Post
    I have read here that Panasonic ES-10 Passthrough can eliminate the need for external TBC?
    That's not exactly correct. Words matter, context matters. "can eliminate" is accurate. I want to emphasize that.

    The ES10 is a not a TBC. It's a DVD recorder with a framesync and some strong line timing correction abilities with passthrough. It won't remove all signal issues, so some % of your tapes will still fail to transfer properly. TBC would rarely fail.

    The ES10 also has side effects, more than a TBC, and isn't a transparent device. It's "least worst" tool. Use it when it makes video truly look better, and isn't something I'd advise for every transfer of all tapes.

    Amazing tool to have. But as with any tool, know when to use it, and when to not. You don't beat nails with a screwdriver. Yeah, sometimes you can, but it won't always work. Same with the ES10.

    For you, for this case, sure, try the ES10, if you have not already.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    That's not exactly correct. Words matter, context matters. "can eliminate" is accurate. I want to emphasize that.

    The ES10 is a not a TBC. It's a DVD recorder with a framesync and some strong line timing correction abilities with passthrough. It won't remove all signal issues, so some % of your tapes will still fail to transfer properly. TBC would rarely fail.

    Amazing tool to have. But as with any tool, know when to use it, and when to not. You don't beat nails with a screwdriver. Yeah, sometimes you can, but it won't always work. Same with the ES10.
    For you, for this case, sure, try the ES10, if you have not already.
    Well I did some tests with some problematic tapes and must agree that Canopus needs a TBC between the source and it. Since I don't have an external TBC I used ES-10 for that. And you know, it helps. It completely removed the dropouts in the clip Minstere I have uploaded in this thread. Another video had a horizontally shaky picture and again ES-10 helped for 100%. As I have said many times I could live without Canopus, but my favourite DV capture tool the Sony miniDV is only PAL. But Canopus works with all colour systems.
    Finally I agree about the need of external TBC, but for me I'm happy with LG LV880 HiFi > ES-10 >Sony miniDV. Because I don't have trouble with expensive and unreliable High-end S-VHS VCRs. I had Blaupunkt RTW-950 (clone of Panasonic FS200) and even after repairs it was the worst from all my ordinary VCRs. And for me ES-10 does the job of Frame TBC.
    Unlike the suggestions to turn off it's Analog Input NR, I found it does a good job. With a very good quality tape I can see it removes all sort of VHS shortcomings WITHOUT loss of detail as usually said here. And yes, I have ordered a Panasonic NV-HS860, because I believe that if in good state it can probably improve capture with it's S-Video output.
    Panasonic NV-HS860, LG LV 880 HiFi 6 Head, Sony SLV-SE 630 HiFi, LG BL-162W, Sony TRV33E miniDV for Capture, Canopus ADVC 55, Panasonic DMR-ES10, Sony Vegas Pro12, WinDV
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    Well having contributed to this thread I am glad to read that using the ES-10 has improved the transfer of that troublesome tape. A TBC was not mentioned by me simply because reading your initial post appeared to suggest that you were already using the ES-10. So the matter was somewhat clouded.

    Just a few things I hope you do not mind be bringing up. You recall my original question about recording to the HDD and taken up by my friend. A partitioned single drive should be the last resort in particular if you were capturing to a system where it is not at all possible to install a second drive ie a laptop. You do appear to have had a good run here but there could be a time when the system tries to write to the drive at the same time as the capture and the capture will be ruined.

    You are also mis-guided about using noise reduction. Whilst it may look fine to you, detail has been lost since the image will be softened up. If you must remove noise do it post capture.
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    Originally Posted by Maris 55 View Post
    And you know, it help
    Excellent. Glad to hear it has worked well enough to do what was needed.

    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    your initial post appeared to suggest that you were already using the ES-10.
    Always a good idea to try what's currently available. But if it fails, you move on.

    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    You are also mis-guided about using noise reduction. Whilst it may look fine to you, detail has been lost since the image will be softened up. If you must remove noise do it post capture.
    I disagree. NR often removes noise that was confused with being "detail". But it was just grain and noise, not actual detail. And NR doesn't always soften images. The NR in lots of higher-end video gear is more complex that simply smearing the image. It really depends on the exact items being used in a workflow.
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Just a few things I hope you do not mind be bringing up. You recall my original question about recording to the HDD and taken up by my friend. A partitioned single drive should be the last resort in particular if you were capturing to a system where it is not at all possible to install a second drive ie a laptop. You do appear to have had a good run here but there could be a time when the system tries to write to the drive at the same time as the capture and the capture will be ruined.

    You are also mis-guided about using noise reduction. Whilst it may look fine to you, detail has been lost since the image will be softened up. If you must remove noise do it post capture.
    Well multitrack audio mixing (sometimes up to 40-50 audio tracks) plus the same amount or more of software plugins puts a lot of stress on both HDD and CPU. I have never expierenced any problem. Current PCs are very powerful.
    I watched closely to Noise Reduction and possible detail loss before capturing a high quality 1st gen recording in VHS. Switching the Analog input NR On and off on ES-10 showed no signs of slightest detail loss while reducing noise and flickering significally. As Lordsmurf mentioned it can actually help the converter to do the job.
    Panasonic NV-HS860, LG LV 880 HiFi 6 Head, Sony SLV-SE 630 HiFi, LG BL-162W, Sony TRV33E miniDV for Capture, Canopus ADVC 55, Panasonic DMR-ES10, Sony Vegas Pro12, WinDV
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    Well, at the end of the day, it's your baby.

    It has now been brought to your attention so you can not say that you were not warned.

    I always bow to the experience of Lordsmurf on matters of capturing. He is a 'pro' in this regard. Noticeable though that he did not contradict me in that element of my reply. Maybe he will come back and do so
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  24. Noise reduction with the ES10 also causes ghosting, especially in low contrast motion areas.
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Noticeable though that he did not contradict me in that element of my reply. Maybe he will come back and do so
    Your concerns about I/O were accurate.

    The ADVC boxes have their uses, and the DMR-ES10 can be useful, but each gives you a hit to quality. I'd hate to use both together, as you're taking a double-hit at minimum. Later encoding to MPEG or H.264 gives it hits yet again.
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    Thanks for all advice! My nature is such that I ask a lot of questions, gain a lot of precious knowledge and then make my own decisions. They may not be always the best decisions, but if I feel they work for me, then at the end of day I stay satisfied.
    So many thanks for your contribution!

    Maris
    Panasonic NV-HS860, LG LV 880 HiFi 6 Head, Sony SLV-SE 630 HiFi, LG BL-162W, Sony TRV33E miniDV for Capture, Canopus ADVC 55, Panasonic DMR-ES10, Sony Vegas Pro12, WinDV
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