Widescreen

[jagabo]

Any lossless codec in AVI can be 4:3 or 16:9 DAR simply by using a 4:3 or 16:9 frame size. Just like you created a 16:9 (853x480) JPG image in your first post. But note that many codecs require even frames sizes so you would have to use 852x480 or 854x480.

The point is that the AVI container, and most codecs used in therein, do not support aspect ratio signaling. They have no way of telling an editor or player that the display aspect ratio is different than the frame aspect ratio.

[Cornucopia]

Regarding compression and lossy vs lossless, you need to be clear in your head that there are 2 things being referred to here: the PROCESS and the FORMAT (Codec).

If I take a file and copy it (giving the copy a different name), I have done a lossless process. Doesn't matter if the original was using uncompressed, or lossless or lossy format.
So, the original has let's say 1 generation of compression (let's say DV). Because the process was lossles and there was no recompression, the copied file also only has 1 generation of compression. The copy didn't all of a sudden on its own become uncompressed, either. Nothing was DONE to it, other than copy.

The process was lossless, the codec (Dv) was lossy.

When you edit, your editing app may do some things in a lossless way and some things in a lossy way.
If it is done in a lossy way, doesn't matter the codec, you will likely have to recompress upon output. If it's a lossless codec (format) in use on both input & output, the recompression should have no effect*. If you have been using a lossy codec but you recompress using a lossless, you also should have no (further) effect*. If you start with a lossy codec and you recompress using a lossy codec, you WILL have loss, the amount depending on bitrate and other factors.
Lossy process = must recompress.
In your editing, certain things that you do can keep the process lossless, while other things will force it to be lossy. If your app is the "smart-rendering" kind, it might apply the lossy process ONLY to the sections it is forced to by circumstance, leaving the rest alone (along the lines of "copying" above).
But for this to work, you have to only use certain codecs (which ones depends on the app), and only apply certain transformations (the kind that don't force the issue).

DV is commonly available as one of those supported smart-rendering codec options. But any spot in which you: overlay images/text, change color space, apply filters, move/transform/rotate the pixels, etc., the sections where that occurred must be recompressed. So at that point, your output DV will have some or all of its sections be 2nd generation, and will have lost some quality. Because the process and the codec were lossy.

Re: AVI & compression,
AVI is neither compressed, nor uncompressed. It is just the container.
What is inside (audio & video streams using various codecs) are the things that may be compressed or uncompressed.
DV video is always compressed (~5.5:1), DV audio is just LPCM (like WAV) so uncompressed. Whether the DV streams are in an AVI container, MOV, MKV, MXF, or Raw and not even in a container, those are still the properties of DV streams.One thing that is different between DV and most all other formats is that the DV stream is already pre-multiplexed (muxed) in the camera, so that part must be treated differently.

Scott

*exceptions include those things like colorspace change, which nonlinearly recalculate the pixel values

[biferi]

I get it.
If I do anything and I want to Render As Widescreen.

I can Pick AVI and Pick the Format NTSC DV Widescreen because it will support Pix Ratio of 1.2121?

[_Al_]

Do you know that to have 16:9 video, it does not have to be NTSC DV widescreen? But just any video with 16:9 resolution ratio, like 854x480, 1280x720 or 1920x1080, so you do not even need to resize to NTSC DV for your movie at all.

I still think this is your problem, not knowing the difference between anamorphic video and square pixel video. If that's the case, drop everything and look into it first. This is the core problem for it all.

[biferi]

Ok I will tell you what I know and you can tell me if I have this right?

If I am working with a Video I always keep my Project set to NTSC DV 720x480 and the Pix Ratio is 0.9091 so this will be Square Pix I know this.
And this will be a 4:3 Image.

But if I am working with a Video and I keep my Project set to NTSC DV 720x480 but use a Pix Ratio of 1.2121 I know I will be useing None Square Pix.
So it will be Widescreen.

Do I have this right?

[jagabo]

If I am working with a Video I always keep my Project set to NTSC DV 720x480 and the Pix Ratio is 0.9091 so this will be Square Pix I know this.
And this will be a 4:3 Image.

No. Square pixel means the aspect ratio of individual pixels is 1.0 (1:1), not 0.9091 (10:11). Square pixels with a 720x480 frame means the display aspect ratio will be equal to the frame aspect ratio, 720:480, or 3:2, or 1.5.

[Cornucopia]

This is the 3rd thread regarding aspect ratio we've been on where you claim to know it, yet it is clear that you still do not.

PAR (or SAR) = the aspect ratio of the Pixel (aka Sample). The shape, if you will. Whether you want to call it a point or a square or rectangle, diamond, or whatever.

DAR (or FAR) = the aspect ratio of the Display (or Frame). The shape of the whole image as displayed. This usually is 4:3 or 16:9, but can be many other things (1:1, 21:9, 27:9, 1.37:1, 1.85:1, 2.35:1, 16:10, 9:16, 3:2...). This is also NOT NECESSARILY the shape that the TV or other display device natively presents (in which case, you would then have pillarbars or letterbars, or both).

Again, get used to using this universal formula:

Width / Height * PAR = DAR

(Again, I do not subscribe to or condone the use of the terms SAR - Storage AR, or FAR - stored Frame AR, as they are just shorthand for Height & Width, they are not used as legit terms in any professional or academic documentation/standards, they are not included in any format as stated metadata, and they confuse the issue and remove the utility of working explicitly with H & W, particularly in resizing)

**************************************

You've been working on NTSC (SD) material. Normally, when working with such material (especially from legit hardware sources), you are presented with a 720 x 480 pixel image.
If you just looked at the Storage AR (as I just told you NOT to), you would see that 720 / 480 = 3:2 or 1.5.
But it NEVER looks like that (unless somebody is doing something goofy and non-standard).
Usually it is "Full-screen", using a 4:3 DAR (which working backwards would give you a PAR of 0.90909:1, using the rec601 standard).
Occasionally it is "Wide-screen, using a 16:9 DAR (working backwards would give you a PAR of 1.2121212:1, using the rec601 standard).
Neither of these use SQUARE PIXELS.

**************************************

If you plan on working with NTSC (SD) material and you choose a codec, you will run into these issues -
DV...You must choose which DAR (or accompanying PAR) to use. But you must keep the resolution the same.
MPEG1 or MPEG2...Same thing. With MPEG1, it only lets you choose the PAR. In MPEG2, it only lets you choose the DAR, but the result should be the same.
If you choose some other codec that supports Aspect Ratio flagging, you will need to choose whether you want the fullscreen 4:3 or the widescreen 16:9 option.

For most all the other codecs (compressed or uncompressed) that do NOT support AR flagging, you MUST RESIZE, so that your square pixel equivalent is the same resulting DAR.

So, for Lagarith (for example), you resize to 640x480 (or 720x540, though I always prefer to maintain vertical size integrity - see my previous posts) if going "fullscreen,4:3". Or you resize to 854x480 if going "widescreen,16:9". Because 720 / 480 * 1 = 1.5 which is wrong either way, but 640 / 480 * 1 = 1.3333 (aka 4:3) and 854 / 480 * 1 = 1.77777777 (aka 16:9).

******************************

Again DV-AVI: do not resize, but keep as 720x480, but remember to set the proper AR flag.
Most other codecs (including uncompressed): no AR flag to set, so you MUST resize to give the proper final DAR, since the PAR is 1:1 (aka square).

Can we put this to bed now?

Scott Warren

[biferi]

OK I think I understand now more then I did.
But I just have something to ask About what I see in my Movie Studio?

After I have Imported all my Widescreen JPGs I go to Render As.
Under save as type I see
Video For Windows .AVI
MEPG 2
QuickTime
and a lot more.

I do pick .AVI like I say.

Now under Template I pick NTSC DV Widescreen.

Now like I say I do understand NTSC is a Compression Format.
So I go into Custom because you can make any changes you would like.

So I click Video and I see it says Video Format and it has NTSC DV Widescreen.

Now Right above it there is a Aspect Ratio Box and it is Grayed Out.

But if I click the Video Format Box that says NTSC DV Widescreen and from the list here I pick Uncompressed.
The Aspect Radtio Box that was Grayed Out says 1.2121

So am I right this will keep my Widescreen Video as Widescreen but Uncompressed like I wanted?

[_Al_]

Import 854 X 480 jpg's (or any 16:9 resolution), record your voice-over, edit it,

set project properties as picture shows, export MainConcept avc Internet HD 720p (or any other Internet template because you are going to cutomize it anyway) and change things as another picture shows. If you do not find frame rate 59.940 in there, just type it there. And FORGET anamorphic videos and all aspect ratios, use just 1.0, square pixel.

[jagabo]

I pick NTSC DV Widescreen. Now like I say I do understand NTSC is a Compression Format.

NTSC (National Television System Committee) is the analog broadcast video standard: 525 lines, 59.94 fields per second (typically stored digitally as 720x480 29.97 interlaced frames per second). It was used in North America, Japan, etc. It has nothing to do with compression. DV is the compression.

Do what _Al_ suggested: create your background images/video as 1920x1080, 1280x720, or 854x480 square pixel lossless AVI. Then you can just import it and let the editor handle scaling for you.

[Cornucopia]

Which is what I suggested over 2 threads ago.

The “weirdness” you are experiencing is actually following an underlying logic.
The codec/format dialog is allowing you to pick the container (avi/vfw, mpg, QuickTime/mov,mp4, etc...), and within that it is offering the codecs that it supports that are allowed within that format. Note that this app does not support the full, complete & exhaustive list of possible options, only those they thought were popular and or necessary (and were reasonably willing to license).
There clearly are options in the AVI section that would include Dv, and those should be NTSC full screen (4:3), NTSC widescreen (16:9), and PAL full screen and widescreen. Why just those 4 for DV? Because that’s all sd DV codec supports. And notice it’s anamorphic without a choice, because that’s the only way dv operates with sd material.
Then when you change the codec option to uncompressed, anamorphic and or AR becomes a changeable option, because while uncompressed usually doesn’t include anamorphic material, there is no restriction from using that feature and so it gives you that choice. If you choose to be anamorphic AND be widescreen, the 1.21212 AR is the default for 16:9 display of 720x480 timelines/sources. And if did not want to go anamorphic, you would either end up with squished picture of the original rez or you would have to stretch the rez out to 854x480, or something, in order to have a proper look to your square-pixel output.

Scott