Not sure if this should be in the ripping or converting forum so if it seems more appropriate elsewhere please feel free to move it.
It seems there are as many formats for video as there are opinions so would appreciate some help. I have a large collection of commercial DVDs as well as a large collection of my own videos on DVD and would like to rip these and put them on a couple of NAS drives so they can be accessed from all of my TVs as well as my computers and mobile devices. Needless to say I don't want to lose any quality but want to minimize file size as much as possible and have the greatest compatibility between devices.
I used TMPGE to author DVDs and tried using it to load video onto my hard drive but the older version creates an mpg file that is very large. I also have newer versions of the same program however it creates proprietary video files which are useless for my needs. I also tried Handbrake but it seems there are so many settings it doesn’t seem like it is for the novice user. I purchased Aimersoft but of course there are many choices in it as well. avi mkv mp4 mov and on and on. I know my TV played avi files so tried it and then received an error message that it did not support that format which seemed odd as I played avi files before but then discovered for each of the above there are different encoding that can be used so again would appreciate knowing what should be used or what the advantage of one over the other is.
I also from time to time capture streaming video and when I go to convert these the output file is always much larger that the source file which doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense.
In addition I often I would like to cut off a few seconds of video at the start or end of some of the videos I have which you can do in Aimersoft however again the output file size is much larger that the input file size even when the same format/encoding and resolution is exactly the same as well as the audio.
I recently tried another program to rip programs to my hard drive but cannot recall the name of it. I believe the format was h265 but my TV would not play it so try converting it and again the file sizes were larger that the source and the longer the video plays the more out of sync the audio becomes while the original did not.
So to sum up I would like to know what format I should use to accomplish what I want to do. Size of the file it is not the biggest concern but don’t want to have them excessively large either, at least what is beyond what is needed to maintain the quality. Most or at least many of these are not HD anyway so the originals are not always the highest quality but don’t want to lose what qualify they do have. I would like to know what I can use to edit the video, and it doesn’t need to be a full fledged editor as most of the time it is just cutting a few seconds off of the beginning or end of the video and would prefer it if didn’t have to re-encode the entire video.
Thank you
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No quality loss but minimal file size? You don't notice a contradiction there? It's one or the other but not both.
I also from time to time capture streaming video and when I go to convert these the output file is always much larger that the source file which doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense.
I believe the format was h265 but my TV would not play it
I'd suggest you find out what your devices (televisions, tablets, phones, whatever) accept and have in common and then go for that. It might be MP4 with H264 video and AAC audio. Once you've determined that, then you can decide what programs can do it for you - cut the beginning and ends, set a bitrate and/or quality to make the filesize smaller without compromising quality too much. The program might be Handbrake (or, more likely, Vidcoder), if you learn to use it properly.
...and would prefer it if didn’t have to re-encode the entire video. -
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Lossy codecs are called lossy for a reason. They all lose quality when they compress video. The idea is to get as much compression as possible with the least loss of quality. So when you re-compress (with a lossy codec) an already compressed video you will always get more loss of quality. But it may be little enough that you don't care. Some lossy codecs from least compression at the top, to most compression at the bottom:
MPEG 1
MPEG 2
MPEG4 Part 2 (Xvid, Divx)
h.264 (AVC, MPEG 4 Part 10), VP8
h.265 (HEVC)., VP9
AV1
As a general rule, the better the compression the longer it takes to compress and the more power it takes to decompress (to play).Last edited by jagabo; 20th Mar 2018 at 15:27.
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So what is considered the best balance between compression and the least quality loss? Does avi not use different codecs as well, if that is the right term? I am not all that conversant but I know I have some avi files that will play on my TV and some that will not so assumed there is more that one type of avi file.
Thank you -
AVI is a container, not a format, not a codec.
AVI: https://www.videohelp.com/glossary?A#AVI
codec: https://www.videohelp.com/glossary?C#Codec- My sister Ann's brother -
Yes, AVI is a container which can be used for a fair number of different audio and video codecs. A TV's built-in media player can only play some of the possible combinations.
The post above mentions AV1. AV1 (A+V+the number one) is a codec, AOMedia Video 1. AV1, which is still under development, will be used with Opus audio in a future version of the WebM container.Ignore list: hello_hello, tried, TechLord, Snoopy329 -
All the codecs I listed can deliver good quality. The issue is how small the resulting videos can get before quality loss becomes a problem. I gave the codecs in the order of increasing compression while retaining good quality. That is, to maintain quality, MPEG 1 will require the most bitrate, AV1 the least.
AVI is a container like MP4, MOV, MKV, etc. Containers are logical organizations of audio and video, subtitles, etc data. That orgainization makes it easier for players to identify what's in the file. Most containers can contain a wide variety of codecs. Many players are limited to certain containers and do not support all codecs that may be found within.
Note the the last codec in my list is AV1 (the last character is the number one, not the letter I). The AV1 spec has not been finalized and there is virtually no support for it yet.Last edited by jagabo; 19th Mar 2018 at 22:32.
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Right now the best compromise is using h264 (AVC) for video in mp4 or mkv container. It can achieve decent compression with good quality and speed. h264 is also well supported by players
If your player only supports .avi, you can get pretty good quality encodes especially if you're doing DVDs.
You do however have to make sure
1. that the encode is not "packed bitstream"
2. the audio is CBR .mp3
3. no GMC, no QPEL
You could try XmediaRecode. It's free and has settings for different players. Encode a few small files and see if they play.
Best bet though is h264 + aac audio in mkv containerLast edited by blud7; 20th Mar 2018 at 14:20.
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[QUOTE=manono;2514929]
No quality loss but minimal file size? You don't notice a contradiction there? It's one or the other but not both.
I also from time to time capture streaming video and when I go to convert these the output file is always much larger that the source file which doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense.The final filesize is determined by the bitrate set and only by the bitrate. If that bitrate is larger than that of the source, then the output file size will be larger.
I believe the format was h265 but my TV would not play itThat should point you in the right direction. You want the output format to be one that is compatible with all devices on which you intend to play them. You'll get more info about that from the user manuals than from here.
I'd suggest you find out what your devices (televisions, tablets, phones, whatever) accept and have in common and then go for that. It might be MP4 with H264 video and AAC audio. Once you've determined that, then you can decide what programs can do it for you - cut the beginning and ends, set a bitrate and/or quality to make the filesize smaller without compromising quality too much. The program might be Handbrake (or, more likely, Vidcoder), if you learn to use it properly.
My TV plays most formats or codecs with the exception of the h265 I mentioned above and MSMPEGV3, these are two that I have found that will not play on my TV, other than that it seems everything pretty much plays.
...and would prefer it if didn’t have to re-encode the entire video.If MPG is okay with you, convert your DVDs to that (VOB2MPEG) and don't reencode at all. They'll be about the same size as your DVDs, and should play on the devices you have, although you'll have to test to be sure.
I am sorry I have not replied earlier but have had a sick family member so have not been here much. I had replied to a few of the other posts but as yours was longer and discussed more areas I just didn't take the time until now. I know at least some of the issues have been discussed above but as you took the time to reply wanted to reply to you.
Thank youLast edited by jackdup; 16th Apr 2018 at 00:11.
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Once again, encoding to a lossy codec mean ... loss ... of quality. Degradation. You may or may not notice it, but it's there. Lossless is possible, yes, but the file sizes are enormous.
So a video with a resolution of 720 and bitrate of 5 will be the same size as a video with a resolution of 1080 and a bitrate of 5?
I would prefer if I could edit some from the start and end without re-encoding so even if mpg was okay I would still like to be able to trim the video without re-encoding. -
It's the literal definition of bitrate:
Code:bit rate = size / duration
Of course, the file size is the sum of the size of all streams contained in the file, plus a little overhead for the container itself. Overhead is usually on the order of 1 percent, except for transport streams (.TS, .MTS, M2TS, etc.) which have more redundancy and run about 5 percent.
It's like miles per gallon and cars. If two cars get the same MPG (rate) they will go the same number of miles (size) on a gallon of gas, regardless of the other properties of the cars. -
Thanks again for the additional information. Will the MPG2Cut2 allow trimming of other codecs as well as I do have a fair amount of videos that have been ripped to my HD already and would like to trim at least some of these. While it is nice to be able to maintain the quality of all the videos sometimes a slight loss of quality may be worth the tradeoff in size, especially when I have the original DVDs. I don't want to lose half the quality to reduce the file size by 10% but if I can reduce file size by 20-30% or more and only have a slight loss of quality, which as you mention, may be imperceivable, than I would be happy with that. Of course family videos I would like to keep as high a quality as possible.
If all of the newer codecs result in loss of quality what is the purpose of them? If all they really do is reduce the bit rate than could you not simply reduce the bitrate of an MPG file to achieve a smaller files size if that is what the other codecs essentially do? From what I have read or seen in a TV documentary I understood that the newer codecs have found ways to keep the quality and reduce file size and at least one way they do that is to not save every detail of every frame, only the ones that change so if you have the same sky or background or other static objects in 10,000 frames it would take less size to keep that information that keeping the entire contents of every frame. Again perhaps I am completely misunderstanding but this does seem logical but again I am no expert so appreciate your feedback or comments.
Below is a little experimentation I tried and perhaps you can explain. I have a DVD that I am going to import or rip to my hard drive in Aimersoft as I already have that program installed. As you can see by the screen capture it will use MKV format, h264 codec and for the audio AAC. The source file is 4.7gb and the output file will be 1.3gb and Aimersoft claims there is no quality loss but that seems hard to believe.
I will post in a separate post below converting the same movie to a different format using Aimersoft. I am using a separate post to avoid confusion for the screen captures.
Would converting an MPG to an H264 reduce the file size by reducing the bit rate? I would assume so given your previous posts.
It turns out after converting it the file size was actually 590 mb instead of the 1.3gb originally estimated by the program.Last edited by jackdup; 16th Apr 2018 at 15:10.
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Will the MPG2Cut2 allow trimming of other codecs as well...
If all they really do is reduce the bit rate than could you not simply reduce the bitrate of an MPG file to achieve a smaller files size if that is what the other codecs essentially do?
The source file is 4.7gb and the output file will be 1.3gb and Aimersoft claims there is no quality loss but that seems hard to believe. -
I was going to convert that same movie that I had previously ripped to my hard drive and you can see the source size and output size. I was going to say I am not sure what I used to rip it but given the size of the output file I mentioned above I assume it probably was Aimersoft. The codec screen capture was taken from VLC to show the codec used on the source file was h264 - mpeg 4 and the audio is AAC. The second screen capture is from Aimersoft and shows the output will be mkv-h264-AAC. The source file is 549mb and the output file will be 3.2gb. Perhaps this file was ripped with something else I really can't remember.
If I now take the file I just ripped from the DVD above and load it to convert it keeps the same file size unlike above where it would increase the output size substantially. Converting from an mpeg4-h264 to mkv-h264 increases file size substantially which doesn't seem to make any sense. -
Thanks again for your reply and not sure if you saw my second post above? I am not understanding how converting a DVD Video to mkv would reduce the file size from 4.7gb to 590 mb and then converting the same movie from mp4 to mkv would result it an increase in size from 549 mb to 3.2 gb.
If you wanted to rip video from a DVD to a hard drive and were willing to trade a bit of quality for file size would you agree with what was suggested above which was using mkv - h264 and AAC? If so what program would you suggest that would not require extensive knowledge to properly setup the program and additionally what program would you suggest to trim the converted video? I guess I could rip it to mpg and use the editor you suggest and then do the conversion to a newer codec to reduce file size while maintaining a quality at least close to the original.
One other question I often see h264 and x264 referred to, what is the difference.
Thank you again. -
The process of converting from one codec to another involves first decompressing the source video, then giving those uncompressed frames to the new codec for compression. Regarding your example: in the first case a lower bitrate than the DVD source was specified -- so the mkv output was smaller. In the second case a higher bitrate than the mp4 source was specified, so the output mkv was larger.
h.264 is a specification for video compression. x264 is a specific implementation of that specification. -
Where do you see the lower and higher bit rates I the two conversion samples I posted? I did not set any bitrates at all and as it showed the same resolution I assumed it would use the same bit rate. It seems the only options once a codec is chosen is in the lower right where you can either select high quality or small file and in both cases high quality was chosen so assume that would keep the bit rate. Maybe not the same bit rate of the original source but the same bit rate for the output I both examples.
Thank you -
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QUOTE=jagabo;2517499] In the file sizes.
You assume incorrectly.
Bitrate can be specified directly by setting a bitrate, or indirectly by setting a quality level, rate factor, etc.[/QUOTE]
I guess the part that is confusing is all I did was leave mkv selected and high quality selected and one time it randomly chooses to output a file that is 590 mb from a 4.7 gb source and the very next file it randomly changes the bitrate so the output is 3.2 gb from a 540 mb source file without me changing anything? I hadn't even closed and reopened the programs between loading the files to convert. -
Then maybe you should think about using a different program, one that's a little bit more transparent about what it's doing. I, for one, would never even think about using an encoder that gives you a choice of 'High Quality' as a setting. You want something that will allow you to set either a bitrate or a CRF (or similar) quality setting.
Maybe such programs are for people that want the easiest and most automatic experience possible, without having to make too many choices or knowing anything at all about video encoding. Is that you? It shouldn't be, if you're serious about your video conversion hobby. If this is a one-time thing, then maybe it'll serve its purpose. -
First, do you have a program you would recommend that would not require a lot of in-depth knowledge to get quality or reasonable results?
Second what bitrate should a person use and I would assume if you select a bit rate and it increases the size of the output file you can reduce the bitrate until you have the same size file as the source and that would or should give you the same bitrate or quality as the original.
If I am using mkv-h264-aac how much can I compress or reduce the file size while only slightly reducing the quality? As you mentioned above sometimes the quality loss would not be noticed so would appreciate if you can advise the bitrate to maintain a good quality.
Last do you agree that if a person is not going to keep the mpg using mkv-x264-aac would be the next best thing?
Thanks again for your help. -
The answer isn't going to be one you will like: IT DEPENDS.
Depends on the detail & complexity & contrast of the material (both spatial & temporal).
Depends on the tuning settings of the encoder.
Depends on the quality of the encoding engine (which will vary with material, but x264 is usually one of the best).
Depends on your visual acuity, training & preferences.
Next best thing depends on what app/equipment the user has (for example, none of my non-computer devices work with MKV at all, but MP4 support is common).
Scott -
I don't know. What are you trying to do? If you're making a DVD, then AvsToDVD. It'll choose the correct bitrate to fill a DVD+/-R.
MP4 or MKV? Then maybe VidCoder. With that you can choose a CQ (quality-based) setting. 18 is a good number without blowing up the file size too much.
Second what bitrate should a person use...
The pages for both of those programs have guides at the bottom. -
Adding to this:
Be sure to select a variety of shots to make sure your sample is representative of the entire video.
When the quality/bitrate gets too low you will lose small low contrast detail, moving edges get rough, and the video may get blocky. Also watch for posterization artifacts in shallow gradients that are in motion (especially dark areas, sometimes the blue sky, etc) -- these can be very obvious and distracting.Last edited by jagabo; 21st Apr 2018 at 09:13.
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