Pull down in video

[1stFalloutboy]

Hello all I can convert normal video and edit it fairly easy but this has thrown me and I don't know how to convert it.

I have tried playing it back in VLC and it looks fine so I tried recording it from VLC to hard drive and then loading it into shotcut and it became all Jerky again on playback it apparently involves some sort of pull down of the frame rate and is screwing up what I want to do so I wish to remove it from 110 files. ( hopefully easily and automagicaly )

Here is some output from Mediainfo detailing the file - I have seen pieces of software mentioned called virtualdub and others for doing this but I have no idea how and would appreciate some help.

Video
ID : 1
ID in the original source medium : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings : CustomMatrix / BVOP
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Custom
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=15
Format settings, picture structure : Frame
Codec ID : V_MPEG2
Codec ID/Info : MPEG 1 or 2 Video
Duration : 42 min 57 s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 5 356 kb/s
Maximum bit rate : 7 000 kb/s
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 24.674 FPS
Original frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.628
Time code of first frame : 00:59:59;10
Time code source : Group of pictures header
GOP, Open/Closed : Closed
Stream size : 1.61 GiB (92%)
Language : English
Default : No
Forced : No
Original source medium : DVD-Video

[manono]

Better will be for you to make available 10 seconds or so from the source (DVD?). Not the one you captured from VLC but the source video, a section with steady movement.

( hopefully easily and automagicaly )

Probably neither easily nor 'automagically'.

[DB83]

To get the 10 or 20 secs sample try this.

Load the original clip into avidemux and wait for the indexing to finish. Mark the section and save with video and audio as 'copy'

It may not work since if you really do have variable frame rate - not really AFAIK a consequence of 3:2 pulldown - then it can be a real devil to edit etc.

This looks more like someone taking a PAL source, converting it to NTSC and making a real hash of it.

[jagabo]

MPEG 2 from NTSC DVDs always results in 59.94 fields per second after pulldown. The MPEG data can be a mixture of hard pulldown and soft pulldown. With hard pulldown the film frames are pulled down to 59.94 fields per second before encoding as interlaced 29.97 frames per second MPEG 2 (pairs of fields are woven together into frames). With soft pulldown any frame rate from 19.98 fps to 29.97 fps can be encoded progressively with flags that tell the DVD player how to pull the frames down to 59.94 fields per second. With a mixture of hard and soft pulldown the secret is to perform the soft pulldown before editing/encoding -- so that you have a constant 59.94 fields per second video (29.97 frames per second). You then work from there...

[aedipuss]

sorry but this isn't dvd spec mpeg-2. not a chance a vfr was authored to dvd.

[JVRaines]

MediaInfo doesn't always tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

[jagabo]

In fact, MPEG 2 doesn't support variable frame rate at all. Except in the sense that pulldown flags are a form of VFR. And of course, different segments can have different frame rates.

[manono]

sorry but this isn't dvd spec mpeg-2. not a chance a vfr was authored to dvd.

At the very bottom it does say, "Original source medium : DVD-Video". Maybe it's the MediaInfo from the captured version. I also noticed that MediaInfo file was all screwy which is one reason I specifically asked for a sample from the source.

[1stFalloutboy]

To get the 10 or 20 secs sample try this.

Load the original clip into avidemux and wait for the indexing to finish. Mark the section and save with video and audio as 'copy'

It may not work since if you really do have variable frame rate - not really AFAIK a consequence of 3:2 pulldown - then it can be a real devil to edit etc.

This looks more like someone taking a PAL source, converting it to NTSC and making a real hash of it.

Already done the .MKV file is a section cut with avidemux, the mp4 was exported from another package after loading the mkv into it and attempting to export it.
If the .mkv is played through VLC it's perfect, if the MP4 is there is noticeable judder.

I tried recording from VLC using the record button but it seems that it records the images before detecaline and the resultant recording was just as juddery if not worse.


https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AHfzi605aHCX2kg&id=ABE42C415C924477%21921&cid=ABE42C415C924477

[manono]

See below

[manono]

It has soft pulldown and is the easiest kind of NTSC DVD with which to work. You make the D2V project file in DGIndex using Field Operation->Forced Film which makes it 23.976fps immediately. Then encode it however you like.


LoadPlugin("H:\AVISynth\dlls\DGDecode.dll")
MPEG2Source("Test.d2v")

That's the entire AviSynth script. When working with NTSC DVDs it's not a good idea to put them into the MKV container before working on them. Read the documentation included in the DGMPGDec package and do it that way.

[jagabo]

I agree with manono: the clip is soft pulldown. The frames are encoded at 23.976 fps with pulldown flags that tell the player how to produce 59.94 fields per second video from the frames. But it's possible other parts of the source use hard pulldown. It's safest to use DgIndex in Honor Pulldown Flags mode, then inverse telecine back to 23.976.

Mpeg2Source("\010101 Source_track1_und.d2v", Info=3) 
TFM(d2v="010101 Source_track1_und.d2v") 
TDecimate()

[DB83]

So where did the vfr come from ?

Or was Mediainfo just having a 'senior' moment ?

Surely video encoded at 23.976 with pulldown applied to achieve 29.97 should not give the issue that the OP experienced at playback.

[jagabo]

Some programs will convert 23.976 fps plus pulldown flags to a 29.97 fps video. That results in a duplicate every 5th frame. That plays back with six little jerks every second. His mp4 file showed that problem.

[DB83]

jagabo. I can understand that but it does not answer the vfr.

[poisondeathray]

jagabo. I can understand that but it does not answer the vfr.

Because it was muxed into MKV container the timecodes are "off"

If you leave it in mpeg2-ps , or even demux it, there will be no variable frame wierdness

[DB83]

Ok. But for me that was not clear in the original mediainfo report. Well it was not for me and neither did the OP state that.

He only mentions mkv when he produced the sample.

Not to worry though if his issue is solved. Just curious.

[jagabo]

Ok. But for me that was not clear in the original mediainfo report. Well it was not for me and neither did the OP state that.

Yes, he cut off the container info portion of the MediaInfo report so it isn't clear if he had originally remuxed to MKV. I haven't been able to create an MVK with DVD/MPEG2 video that MediaInfo reports as VFR. I don't have MakeMKV. I've only used MkvToolNix.

[Cornucopia]

Actually, if I remember correctly, it was clear that it wasn't in its original container, because in the original (VOB/MPG) container, it doesn't have the "Original source medium : DVD-Video" field.

Scott

[DB83]

Well I downloaded the sample which also has a mp4 version.

Interesting that the sample does not even have that 'DVD-Video' field, reports the correct frame rate and appears to play smoothly.

Maybe that's all the OP may need to do ie remux the original mkv as he did for the sample.

[1stFalloutboy]

The original file for reference was pulled direct from DVD using MakeMKV, the little section I put up on Onedrive I took out with avidemux I just cut out everything around it and used copy mode to a new file which was the clip.mkv but the report was from the original file pulled from the DVD by MakeMkv.

The clip.mp4 was after I tried outputting the clip.mkv through another program.

To me the .mp4 looks jerky but if I take the mkv file that was created from DVD and play it through VLC it plays perfectly.

I will try and process the files as specified and see how I go as I'm setting things up here to put all my video on my server and have little animated sections sitting in front of each directory as well as wanting all my video to be in a fixed frame rate format and this 3:2 pull down business to me just looks kludgy.

I'll let you know how I go, if I need any more help and what the end result is.

Thanks for taking the time to look this over.

[manono]

To me the .mp4 looks jerky but if I take the mkv file that was created from DVD and play it through VLC it plays perfectly.

Software video players are flag readers and in the presence of soft pulldown ignore the flags to play back the encoded progressive 23.976fps perfectly smoothly. However you created the MP4 (why?), the program used the interlaced 29.97fps video as the source, deinterlaced it, and you wound up with the jerky progressive 29.97fps result you noticed, where there were 6 duplicate frames every second.

[1stFalloutboy]

I was trying to get it converted to .MP4 for the purposes of the mini menus I described and also to have all my material in the same format in case I wanted to pull a piece out and add it to another there aren't any editors around that support mixing and matching FFR with VFR and when I put it all on my server I trim things and re-compress, I keep one copy of the intro and ditch the extro credits.

If I ever need to look up - who was the dude that played so in so in whatever - I can always pull out the original disk and look ( I have 4 60L storage containers full of blu rays and DVD's that I own ) but other than that I trim whats not needed re compress and store on my server to save wearing out the disks.

MakeMKV rips to .MKV containers so little choice on that one.
The editor I use at the moment is Shotcut ( open source ) and when I output from that i do so to .MP4.

Is there another way that would rip immediately to .MP4 and leave me with an FFR for editing?

[manono]

Well, first, DVDs aren't VFR. If your DVD sources are from film (movies) you can return them all to progressive 23.976fps. Sticking them all into the MKV container is just wasting time and confusing the issue and complicating the conversion to MP4. There's no need at all to package them as MKVs. I make MP4s myself, and never touch MKV.

MakeMKV rips to .MKV containers so little choice on that one.

There are plenty of choices. Use a Decrypter and put the DVD onto the hard drive as BUP, IFO, and VOB.

Is there another way that would rip immediately to .MP4 and leave me with an FFR for editing?

To rip means to put onto your hard drive the DVD without encryption. It has nothing to do with conversion (reencoding) to MP4. I already explained how I do it - by making an AviSynth script. I then open it in RipBot264 for the reencoding and conversion to MP4. Others do it differently using different programs. Some might recommend Handbrake or Vidcoder. However, if you're not careful in the program you choose and/or how you set it up, you'll end up with jerky playing MP4s, as you experienced.

[DB83]

Did you try to make the mp4 from within avidemux ? It has filters for frame rate etc should your player ignore the pulldown flag.

Here is what I achieved with this. Looks smooth to me.

[manono]

Looks smooth to me.

It's the same as what he did. It's 29.97fps and every fifth frame is a duplicate. It plays jerky.

[DB83]

Looks smooth to me.

It's the same as what he did. It's 29.97fps and every fifth frame is a duplicate. It plays jerky.

Not wishing to argue with you m8.

I did not some stuttering in his mp4. I can not see these now. Maybe I am just blinkered and my vision is not the best

[DB83]

Ok.

Here's another attempt but this time without resampling the frame-rate. What is interesting (to me atleast) is that the resultant clip reports vfr.

[1stFalloutboy]

To rip means to put onto your hard drive the DVD without encryption. It has nothing to do with conversion (reencoding) to MP4. I already explained how I do it - by making an AviSynth script. I then open it in RipBot264 for the reencoding and conversion to MP4. Others do it differently using different programs. Some might recommend Handbrake or Vidcoder. However, if you're not careful in the program you choose and/or how you set it up, you'll end up with jerky playing MP4s, as you experienced.

O.K So I will I will rip the vobs and dump my mkvs
Avisynth and ripbot it.

I have one final question here and it's going to sound possibly dense but...
My understanding was that .MKV and .MP4 were just container types that could handle various type of video streams, audio streams chapters etc but as a container that it had no frame rate in it's own right..
I suppose what I am asking here is has the MakeMKV program ripped the contents into a container with a frame rate of 29.970 fps or is the video originally recorded at the lower 24.xxx frame rate with the pullup expected to bring it up to the correct frame and that is the only frame rate value I should be seeing?

[jagabo]

Containers can flag frame rates that override the frame rate data in the video stream. I suspect your title is a mix hard and soft telecine, and MakeMKV flagged the soft telecine as 23.976 fps and hard telecine as 29.97 fps -- so the average comes out somewhere in between. Since the average is much closer to 23.976 the MKV file is mostly soft telecine and the short clip you posted just happened to from one of those sections.

Try this: demux the MPEG 2 video from the MKV file then open it in DgIndex and Play it (File -> Play). Does it report just "Film" as the Video Type? Or something less than 100 percent Film?