TV calibration

[DaneClark]

I think I have my flatscreen set calibrated perfectly, but I'm convinced that even when perfectly calibrated, flaws in the source material can still be more noticeable on some sets than others. No matter what, some DVDs always have crushed black/white levels and red color casting on this set even after I know that everything is perfectly calibrated because I uses a calibration disc, and these flaws have a tendency to be less noticeable on other sets. Is there anything I can do to fix these issues but leave everything else rhe way it is?

[poisondeathray]

I think I have my flatscreen set calibrated perfectly, but I'm convinced that even when perfectly calibrated, flaws in the source material can still be more noticeable on some sets than others. No matter what, some DVDs always have crushed black/white levels and red color casting on this set even after I know that everything is perfectly calibrated because I uses a calibration disc, and these flaws have a tendency to be less noticeable on other sets. Is there anything I can do to fix these issues but leave everything else rhe way it is?

If the problem is "some" DVD's, but not others, there's not much you can do with your setup since you have it "perfectly calibrated" - unless you want to "adjust" the DVD's .

Crushed levels are usually not "fixable", but color cast can sometimes be improved. But often a commercial DVD is graded in a certain way for a certain look . Sometimes the director and colorist purposefully make it look that way , and some viewers might disagree with the look .

[DaneClark]

That doesn't really explain why they don't look crushed on other sets that are perfectly calibrated. And what can I do about the color casting?

[poisondeathray]

That doesn't really explain why they don't look crushed on other sets that are perfectly calibrated.

Did you mean other "TV sets", or "DVD sets" ?

Are they hooked up the same way otherwise, same DVD player, same connections ?

1) one possibility is it's not "perfect calibrated" as you assume

2) another possibility is that specific display. Certain displays have poor falloff characteristics (shadow and highlight "shades" are abrupt and might appear crushed) . In general, cheaper (less expensive) displays "look" worse.

And what can I do about the color casting?

Color correction . There should be many tutorials here and other sites . If you are still lost, post a sample, maybe in a new topic and someone will help you

[Cornucopia]

Just using a "calibration disc" does not "perfectly calibrate" your display. To truly be perfectly calibrated, you have to have a reference sensor/feedback loop, such as a Datacolor Spyder.
A simple calibration disc relies on your eyes/memory and on your environment (esp. ambient light levels & color temps), neither of which are as controllable as pro calibration tools.

Scott

[TimA-C]

Are these other "perfectly calibrated" sets still running with dynamic contrast?

[DaneClark]

If I'm going to color correct it, I'm going to have to be very careful because everything else looks perfect and the red color casting is the only thing that needs fixing. I hope that there's something that I can do about that, and about the bad fallout, if I went into the factory service settings.

[jagabo]

Are these other "perfectly calibrated" sets still running with dynamic contrast?

And be sure to shut off all the other "enhancement" features, before and after calibration. All they do is ruin the picture.

[DaneClark]

The problems with my black and white levels are deffinatly related to a lack of dynamic contrast and the fact that "video bloom" is visible. And can video bloom also cause red color casting?

[LMotlow]

The problems with my black and white levels are deffinatly related to a lack of dynamic contrast and the fact that "video bloom" is visible. And can video bloom also cause red color casting?

That dynamic contrast feature is total b.s. Your TV doesn't sound perfectly calibrated to me, not at all. As stated earlier, some TV's just aren't that great with with some issues like shadow detail. And as also stated earlier, you should adjust a TV with a color probe and calibration software.

two methods, different software, for both projection systems and HDTV:
old method, cheaper and easier: GREYSCALE & COLOUR CALIBRATION FOR DUMMIES (OLD VERSION)
new method, expensive and inflexible: CHROMAPURE GRAYSCALE & COLOR CALIBRATION FOR DUMMIES

If you want more detail about calibration, some free software, guides, and more details, try the various subforums at http://www.avsforum.com/forum/index.php

[johnmeyer]

+1 to everything that jagabo, Cornucopia, and LMotlow said: your monitor is not calibrated until you do it with a colorimeter, and there is a huge variation in source material, and some of it might be way out of whack.

This is especially true of "crushed" levels. My son was home for a few days at Christmas and wanted to watch "Guardians of the Galaxy." I figured we'd watch it on our new projector. However, after five minutes I stopped the movie when everyone complained about how ridiculously dark everything looked. There was zero detail in the shadows. So, I tried putting it on the normal LCD TV. Same thing. I tried two different DVD players: the one in my son's old XBox 360, and then the one on my laptop. Everything gave the same result. I then tried a couple of other DVDs and all DVD player/TV set combinations looked fine.

The problem is the disc. The obvious conclusion is that there is a HUGE difference in the levels between different DVDs. This is not subtle, at all.

I'd also add that you haven't describe what connection you use between your DVD player and receiver and/or TV set (depending on what equipment you use). There is a huge difference not only in quality but in calibration between composite, component, HDMI, etc.

[DaneClark]

I'm using RCA cables with two SIMA color correctors in between. It was the only way that I was able to get SD DVDs of animated cartoons to even come close to looking as good as they did on my old CRT set

[LMotlow]

I'm using RCA cables with two SIMA color correctors in between. It was the only way that I was able to get SD DVDs of animated cartoons to even come close to looking as good as they did on my old CRT set

Yep, I remember SIMA. I returned mine the same day I bought it.
Apparently not getting into calibration, but into "what I like". There's a vast difference.

[johnmeyer]

Re-read LMotlow's last post:

Apparently not getting into calibration, but into "what I like". There's a vast difference.

Calibrated displays often look worse initially to people who are accustomed to the way TVs are set up in showrooms and how they are delivered to the home. Most displays are set to deliver far more contrast and far more intense color levels than a professionally calibrated monitor will show. As a result, many people complain about both levels and color intensity when initially viewing a calibrated monitor.

However, given that you like the look of some DVDs, but not others, I cycle back to my earlier post: it is probably the fault of the DVD, not your equipment, and not your calibration, even if you did not perform a "true" calibration using a colorimeter.

BTW, all these professional "Hollywood" DVDs also contain truly awful audio mixes. If you also get into calibrating not just your display, but also your home theater audio (which is built into many modern receivers) you may find that dialog is totally garbled, and the audio "stage" is garbage, even after calibration. Once again, blame the DVD (or Blu-Ray).

[DaneClark]

Even discs that do look fine seem to have something odd about the dark areas that's hard to describe. It's just less distracting in some cases.

[LMotlow]

Disc manufacturing differences aside, it's tough to blame the maker when the TV could be at fault, and vice versa. The majority of DVD and BluRays I buy and the majority of broadcasts I see look to be very competent work. But my TV's as well as my PC monitors have been calibrated in detail with the colorimeters and software mentioned earlier. However, when I go to another home, a doctor's office, a hotel, etc., with out-of-the-box settings on the TV (and the picture's ratio distorted half the time!), I'm looking at an endless variety of visual garbage and would rather be reading a book to pass the time.

Proper calibration will improve any TV, but let's face it -- not all TV's have clear shadow detail, not all are capable of smooth motion rendering, some just don't have accurate color no matter what you do to get it, and most don't have the proper controls for a good calibration. User reviews like those at BestBuy or Amazon are not a guide to good performance. Most people don't know what they're looking at anyway and will watch anything that moves. Some research at a site like avsforum will tell you what to look for, what to do, and what to avoid. You can get a better idea of TV performance and testing from a site like http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/category/reviews (they test models in the UK but their NTSC counterparts offer similar performance). To get more information about PC displays, most of which look like crap out of the box, try http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews.htm.

Just because the label on the box has "HD" and "digital" on it is no guide to performance.

[jagabo]

The OP obviously isn't looking for a calibrated display. He's looking for punch -- too much contrast and too much saturation.

[DaneClark]

The OP obviously isn't looking for a calibrated display. He's looking for punch -- too much contrast and too much saturation.

I googled "tv display punch" and didn't get any relevant results, is there a better term to use?

[darkknight145]

"I'm using RCA cables with two SIMA color correctors in between. It was the only way that I was able to get SD DVDs of animated cartoons to even come close to looking as good as they did on my old CRT set "
This is probably the cause of your problem, You need to put a waveform monitor on the output of this to correctly set the levels, you can't really eyeball the black level and contrast when you've got 2 devices that have these settings you'll end up chasing yourself. You need to get the output of the colour corrector correct first (by waveform monitor) then adjust the TV. This explains why your getting crushed blacks and whites.
My God, why are people still using analogue nowadays I haven't used analogue for at least 10 years.

[johnmeyer]

The OP obviously isn't looking for a calibrated display. He's looking for punch -- too much contrast and too much saturation.

I googled "tv display punch" and didn't get any relevant results, is there a better term to use?

It could mean a lot of things, and jagabo will have to tell you what he meant. My translation would be "contrast that is too high, and color saturation that is above nominal."

There were several posts about issues you might have with your display. I had forgotten that not all displays have features like local contrast control, which is only available with LED LCD displays and requires that each LED be capable of being turned off in order to get darker blacks. There are many other nifty tricks like that which other high-end sets do to improve the picture.

It is absolutely amazing the quality you can get for almost nothing these days, but having said that, there is still a big jump in visual quality between a $250 display and a $4,000 display. It is not subtle.

[LMotlow]

My God, why are people still using analogue nowadays I haven't used analogue for at least 10 years.

You don't know what you've been missing. I still have a calibrated CRT for old movies, as well as a calibrated LED and a calibrated plasma.

I have some really terrifying news for you. The picture you watch on your HDTV, and the sound that comes from the speakers, are analog waveforms floating through the air to your eyes and ears. Your senses are analog. They can't do a damn thing with digits.

You don't need a waveform monitor to calibrate a TV. Take a look at the links to calibration sites and tv reviews.

[jagabo]

Of course, a lot of material on DVD and even Blu-ray come from poorly digitized standard definition analog video tapes, which in turn come from poorly telecined, faded, moldy, scratched, dirty film. This includes a lot of b-movies, cartoons, and collections like "Horror Classics -- 50 movie pack" for US$15. But even fairly prominent and modern material is sometimes poorly digitized. And then there's the modern (intentional) practice of turning night scenes into cyan/orange messes. Calibration won't make those look good, it will show off all the problems.

[LMotlow]

collections like "Horror Classics -- 50 movie pack" for US$15.

My old man was a sucker for supermarket and Walmart clearance bins. I still have something like "Hollywood's Greatest Hits - 20 Classics". On 2 discs, no less. Not a single big hit among them, the hottest item is a washed-out, foggy Bowery Boys 1940's flick. 4 of the "movies" have the source tape's head-switching noise, and on most of them there are horizontal dropouts about every 10 minutes. Given the original tapes, a monkey could do better.

[poisondeathray]

The problems with my black and white levels are deffinatly related to a lack of dynamic contrast and the fact that "video bloom" is visible. And can video bloom also cause red color casting?

It's the opposite. Increase in contrast will make white and black "crush" worse.



"some DVDs always have crushed black/white levels and red color casting on this set" - "some DVDs" implies that some other DVD's do not have this problem on the same TV set . Assuming its the same connections, same setup - This suggests problem with that specific DVD, or those "some DVDs"

"and these flaws have a tendency to be less noticeable on other sets." - So that implies he knows notices differences on other TV sets , and later he mentions it's not crushed on the other set only on this one. So that suggests problem with that specific TV or the setup . I would have another look at the SIMA color corrector setup. Was that used on the other set ?



Just curious, which DVD are you referring to?

The same movie, manufactured by different studios can have very different colors even with the same source material. There might be a specific release version from a specific studio in a specific year that has "better" colors according to some people. Even modern releases from the same production studio, same year, but different geographic location (e.g UK facility vs. California facility , but same parent company can have different colors.) . Now with "BD remasters" , we are getting even more variations and looks on old movies.

But one man's "color cast" , is another man's "art" . People have different opinions, it's very subjective

Classic example is example DragonballZ . Several different versions over the years. Ask 10 different people which is "correct" or which one they "prefer", and you'll get 10 different answers . (Ok, maybe not 10, there's only 4 in this example but you get the idea)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVQYcCtoGGA

[DaneClark]

The crushed blacks and video bloom is distractingly noticeable on the Snorks DVDs I got from the Warner Archive. Some of it may have been crushed to begin with, but the fact that even DVDs that look fine still having something odd about the dark areas might imply that there's still something that I can do to make it look better.

The red color casting is noticeable on some homemade Noozles DVDs that I ripped from VHS about 10 years ago, which I color corrected using an old Hotronic TBC. Maybe I did have the saturation too high on some episodes, and some episodes also have pale-looking colors, but I never remember these issues being as noticeable on my old CRT set.

In contrast, my Fraggle Rock DVDs from Lionsgate look perfect except for the odd issue with the dark areas that I onky notice when I'm thinking about it - maybe it has something to do with it being live action, I don't know, but my Lionsgate DVDs of the later animated Fraggle Rock series didn't seem to have any of those problems either.

Don't give me any funny looks, Saturday morning kids shows from the mid-late 80s are a big guilty pleasure of mine

[DaneClark]

Ok, I think that one of the things that I need to do is find out how to adjust the light curves manually - that should take care of everything except for the red color casting. Is there some way to do that if I can figure out how to get into the factory settings?

[amaipaipai]

About the red color casting, that is a remnant method used to do motion capture in film as we did back in the days with film to take a picture. Depending on the composition of this films it gave you different color casting, saturation, RMS granularity (film grain), etc, etc... Back in the day when they said "cut the movie" it was literally. You can read more about it and see some examples bellow.
http://curatingcuteness.com/2013/05/35mm-film-guide/
http://120studio.com/more/slide-film-oldtypes.htm

This cast are seen by some as art, again, this is very subjective.

About the TV calibration, you have to use some reference material to make the TV settings transparent as possible, same to music, the good cable or equipment to me is the one that don't get in the way, the less it can interfere the better. My TV set was calibrated using the AVS HD 709, specially to get my blacks, whites and mid tones that is something people neglect all the time.

Once that is set and done, I hope that the show me the casting set by the director or film producer, like the green cast of Matrix for example. In this case, there is nothing wrong with your calibration just because you see a green cast.

Do I need to use a colorimeter?

It depends, do you work in the industry? Do you need to print your work? Do you need a color precision of 90% or better? Are you a nerd, geek or purist?
If it's the case, yes.

Ambient light is another issue you have to control, one thing is to calibrate a TV in a dark environment, another is use the same TV calibration settings with your room all lit up by the sun light for example. There isn't a one setting fits all configuration.

In my TV room I control the environment, I use a spot light about 2000K in color temperature for ambient light and never use a direct light on the TV.

This light don't interfere with the screen and can give you some nice effects like this one, looks like my ambient light is reflecting on the actors face.

Please forgive my crushed blacks and whites, the TV gamma is different from the gamma from my camera, in real life this looks much better. Here a few examples of casting.

As you can see, there is different color casting and has nothing to do with calibration.

[DaneClark]

Maybe color casting wasn't the right word. My problem is that the red areas on my screen are oversaturated and doesn't seem to be any way of fixing it without making the colors look more washed out and faded or messing up the RGB balance. And I still want to know if the factory settings on a Vizio Smart TV have an option for manually adjusting curves

[amaipaipai]

If your TV is "perfect calibrated" and still, are having problems with color saturation... That can be anything, the player, the TV, the source material that was already over saturated. Try your source material on another TV, maybe is the time to invest in a new one, get reference materials to calibrate your screen and see if you are having the same issue there, if not, your TV is not the one to blame is your source. Sony & LG's has advanced setting mode to fine tune the RGB signals, white balance, etc.

If you don't know witch one to buy, go to a store, test the models in person, the settings you want are in "VIDEO" or "DISPLAY" is very easy to find, is not hidden.

[lingyi]

Visit www.avsforum.com and look for your model and see if they have settings for it (which will likely require you to enter an advanced menu that may be hidden from normal view). Use this as a starting point for further tweaking. Be sure to only use the settings for your specific model (e.g. M-series, P-series, R-series) as the electronics and even LCD panels used differ. Also, different settings are required for daytime and night viewing.


As stated above, the picture will likely be less saturated and dimmer than you're used to. Especially when compared to a CRT. Start with the recommended settings and watch a few hours of different video content (movies, TV, cartoons, etc) before tweaking further. Contrary to what most people think, the picture on a HDTV isn't supposed to "pop" like when on display in the store (they're usually set to an "attract" mode that is purposely over bright and over saturated).

When I first tweaked my current set (a Panasonic plasma), I wasn't used to the picture. But after watching several movies in row, I realized what was different. My eyes weren't fatigued like when I watched my prior set (an LCD).