Best Budget Capture Device

[jackdaws]

Hi folks. First post here, but I've used the site a lot over the past few months. Great job to everyone concened.

I've been trying - from absolute scratch on terms of know-how and equipment - to digitise some 1980s VHS home recorded tapes, and so far I'm finding it a steep learning curve, and equally steep expense curve. I'm rather limited in cash for the project, so I've been trying to do it as cheaply as possible. So far, I've bought two second-hand VCRs, and three progressively expensive (but still cheap, comparatively) devices to do the capture, none of which I've managed to get the job done with. Nevertheless, I'm determined to keep at it, since others seem to be able to do it, and I'm not exactly a technophobe.

To cut matters short, I'm now in a position where I'm willing to spend upwards of about £100, but certainly not hundreds. I'm reluctanty tending towards buying a new Hauppauge HVR-1975 (I say reluctantly, since two of the second-hand Hauppauge devices that I've bought have been a pain in the back side to get working, and their online support seems less supportive than is blindly wandering through search engines and forums).

Anyway, I was wondering, can anyone suggest anything around my budget that would be a better choiice, and if so, why?

[dannyboy48888]

Happauge hvr-955q. It can do direct mpeg encoding with the included software, but if you have the desire like i did, I use virtualdub And avisynth for a good bit better quality. After trying a dazzle and a roxio easy USB this is the only one that has good color balance and works with other software without hacks for audio etc. Cost around 60usd

[jackdaws]

Thanks for the suggestion. I should have made clear that the VCR I have has "composite out" (and scart), but nothing else. The HVR-955Q seems to be useful to watch/record digital/cable TV, but Hauppauge make no mention of using it for analogue VHS input, whilst they say that the HVR-1975 is the product presently most suited to this task. Am I wrong, or should I not follow what some company says about its latest gadget in a seemingly endless supply of gadgets?

[dannyboy48888]

I own the 955q it has coax, svideo, and composite inputs. They do t mention it as its targeted as a TV device, but is also very good at capturing.on my atom netbook I use the supplied software, while on my bigger PC I use virtualdub and deinterlace with avisynth. Hope that helps

[dannyboy48888]

Specs page, they breakout cable is referred to as the audio video adaptor:
http://www.hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_hvr955q.html

[jackdaws]

Are we talking about the same device? - http://www.hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_hvr955q.html

[jackdaws]

Okay. Thanks.

[dannyboy48888]

Glad to help, if you want I can post a pic of my box and accessories for you

[jackdaws]

I'll take your word for it. As ever, I was confused by the company blurb!

[dannyboy48888]

No problem

[LMotlow]

Forget it.

[usually_quiet]

Are we talking about the same device? - http://www.hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_hvr955q.html

You are in the UK, so a capture device with a TV tuner designed for the N. American market may not be the best choice. There is a similar model shown on the Hauppauge.co.uk website, which has a tuner intended for the UK market, the WinTV-T Video Edition.

However, there are relatively inexpensive capture devices with no tuner which would work. The Hauppauge USB-Live2 and I-o Data GV-USB2. Both are supposed to work for PAL video capture. The Hauppauge USB-Live2 can also capture PAL 60 signals from a PAL VCR playing an NTSC tape.

The instructions included with the I-o Data GV-USB2 are in Japanese but you can find setup instructions in English here: http://iotku.pw/gvusb2-guide/

[Edit]The WinTV-HVR-935 is another Hauppauge TV tuner/analog capture device available in the UK. It may be easier to find than the WinTV-T Video Edition.

[jackdaws]

Thanks for suggestions, all of which were helpful (except LMotlows). I don't watch TV, and intend never to do so if possible, so any TV tuner capabilities would be superfluous. Hauppauge claim that the HVR-1975 has image capture stabilisation capabilities. They say nothing else about it, and I suspect that this is probably just a sales pitch, but in absence of anything that sets the others apart from one another, I'm tempted - still reluctantly - to go with the HVR-1975, but I'd still be grateful for any other suggestions.

[usually_quiet]

Thanks for suggestions, all of which were helpful (except LMotlows). I don't watch TV, and intend never to do so if possible, so any TV tuner capabilities would be superfluous. Hauppauge claim that the HVR-1975 has image capture stabilisation capabilities. They say nothing else about it, and I suspect that this is probably just a sales pitch, but in absence of anything that sets the others apart from one another, I'm tempted - still reluctantly - to go with the HVR-1975, but I'd still be grateful for any other suggestions.

I'm not sure what they mean by an "image stabilizer" either. That term normally applies to cameras, where it means the camera has a means to reduce the likelihood of taking blurry photos by automatically compensating for camera movement. I'm pretty sure they are not claiming the HVR-1975 has a full-frame TBC or a line TBC. That would be rather expensive to add. Maybe they mean automatic gain control. However, most if not all capture devices have automatic gain control to even out the signal, which would make the image "more stable", assuming it is working properly.

The HVR-1975 has a hardware MPEG-2 encoder chip and outputs MPEG-2 video and (probably) mp2 audio directly to the PC over its USB connection. This is convenient but doesn't provide much opportunity to fix defects in the picture, and doesn't give you much control over the bitrate and other encoding parameters. The devices I mentioned use software to encode, which means you have more control. It is possible to use a lossless software encoder for capture so you have an opportunity to process the capture file to fix some picture defects and can encode afterward to whatever final audio and video formats you want.

Some additional equipment might help produce better captures. Members here often use a 2005 to 2007 model Panasonic DVD recorder (which include a line TBC/frame synchronizer) between the VCR and the capture device to process the signal and improve the picture by reducing flagging and tearing.

[jackdaws]

I'm not sure what they mean by an "image stabilizer" either.

Sorry. It was "video stabiliser", that they mentioned, but I also doubt that it would be much of a game-changer.

The devices I mentioned use software to encode, .... It is possible to use a lossless software encoder

So, which of them would you yourself suggest, bearing in mind my priorities (I would want to run it through a video editor, probably Shotcut, since that seems easy enough.)

[jackdaws]

By the way, I've just seen the "Elgato Video Capture" device - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B00293CDG0/ref=mp_s_a_1_13 . It has some good reviews. Is this intrinsically any better than the usual cheapo composite to usb device? I know that it has s-video, which I couldn't use with my VCR.

[usually_quiet]

I'm not sure what they mean by an "image stabilizer" either.

Sorry. It was "video stabiliser", that they mentioned, but I also doubt that it would be much of a game-changer.

The devices I mentioned use software to encode, .... It is possible to use a lossless software encoder

So, which of them would you yourself suggest, bearing in mind my priorities (I would want to run it through a video editor, probably Shotcut, since that seems easy enough.)

To tell the truth, I haven't done any VHS captures for several years, so some others here who haven't joined in yet could have more to offer in 2018. That being said, the Hauppauge USB-Live2 would be my choice in your situation because it is a known quantity. (There is an American expat long-time member here who lives in Germany and uses one with PAL VCRs. He praises the device every chance he gets.) The Hauppauge USB-Live2 works with several different capture programs (Hauppauge WinTV, AmaRecTV, DScaler, probably VirtualDub (which is also an editor that works with losslessly encoded files.)). I would probably try HuffYUV, UTVideo, or MagicYUV for lossless encoding. I don't know if Shotcut would work for either lossless capture or editing lossless captures.

However, I'll be honest with you. Doing restoration work on VHS captures is time-consuming and there is a steep learning curve. If you don't have the time or the inclination to struggle with all of that, stick with the WinTV HVR-1975.

With either the WinTV HVR-1975 or the Hauppage USB-Live 2, if you notice tearing or flagging in your captures, using an old Panasonic DVD recorder as a pass-through to filter the signal would be helpful

By the way, I've just seen the "Elgato Video Capture" device - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B00293CDG0/ref=mp_s_a_1_13 . It has some good reviews. Is this intrinsically any better than the usual cheapo composite to usb device? I know that it has s-video, which I couldn't use with my VCR.

It is supposed to be good hardware, and I have recommended it to people using OS X.

[lordsmurf]

Hauppauge hasn't really made good SD cards in 10+ years. Hauppauge long ago went into PVR-style cards, meant to record HD OTA TV. That's not what you want for VHS conversion. The mentioned USB Live 2 is the only one worth mentioning from that brand.

Tuners should make no difference. Many of the best capture cards are NTSC only, and the tuners are useless now to NTSC anyway.

Some Elgato are fine for Mac users. Not all, but some models.

On the "stabilization" claim by Hauppauge, lots of manufacturers claim BS. The people writing the ad/marketing copy usually don't know jack $hit about video. So it's not uncommon to read nonsense claims on what it does.

[jackdaws]

Doing restoration work on VHS captures is time-consuming and there is a steep learning curve.

You don't say! Still, I haven't lost all motivation, yet. The content of the tapes is precious, and they're not getting in any better condition. I've already bought two VCRs (one an old Bush with only SCART out (fools rush in), and also a Philips DVP3055v, which at least has composite out, although the s-video and component terminals turned out to be for DVD only (ditto about fools). I don't have money for a third.

Hauppauge hasn't really made good SD cards in 10+ years... On the "stabilization" claim by Hauppauge, lots of manufacturers claim BS. The people writing the ad/marketing copy usually don't know jack $hit about video. So it's not uncommon to read nonsense claims on what it does.

You also don't say! After weeks of hair wringing, I reckon I still know almost nothing about video capture, but not so about marketing techniques. Throw out a new device every other week, and you leave the average punters confused enough to keep spending money, in the hope that just that bit extra will solve all their capture problems. Meanwhile, each decvice often needs a different driver, and rarely is any one kept in circulation long enough for the bugs to be ironed out. You resort to their "support" pages, and find that what little is there relates to a different, now-obsolete device, but in the mean time you get plenty of time to see all the new stuff that supposedly does all the things your own crap purchase fails to do. All they need is a hard-sell, and money falls down like manna ... and the landfill builds up with plastic and toxic metals just as fast.

Now that's out of the way (heavy intake of breath), I've seen some different opinions about the Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K. Seemingly, it has some time base correction (TBC) facility built in. Some people have argued that this is just another (sigh) marketing statement. Others have said that whilst it had problems early on, that they expected Blackmagic to clear these glitches. Since it's been out a while now, is there a settled view on whether or not the TBC facility does anything like "what it says on the tin", given that it is a lot cheaper than a good capture card and a separate TBC. Also, am I right in thinking that the earlier "Intensity" and "Intensity Pro - sans 4K" either won't work on Windows 7, or doesn't have TBC built in?

[lordsmurf]

Blackmagic cards should not be used for SD. Too many issues. HD or bust.

I have a long piece on TBCs in my signature. Read it. You need to realize the term "TBC" has a loose definition, and can mean whatever the company wants it to mean. Most fudge the facts compared to what's written on the box. Some outright lie, and show fake before/after sample images. I've never seen a supposed TBC in a capture card do anything whatsoever, in terms of what we expect a TBC to do (clean image and/or clean signal).

Marketing is evil to newbies. They're pawns, suckers. You have to learn enough to see past the malarkey. You'll notice some companies are transparently honest, while others are thick on BS. Canopus was a great example of the latter, and Cypress TBCs flat out lied (good product, but doesn't at all do what's claimed). Most higher-end professional companies like DataVideo, Aja, Matrox, For.A never gave you doublespeak, broken promises, or outright lies. Or at worst, not as many. Some were just coy, and never said much about the video products at all, like ATI, which is why the AIW flew under the radar for years.

[jackdaws]

I have a long piece on TBCs in my signature

Thanks for that, which is very clear and informative. It looks like a separate TBC, or a better VCR with inbuilt TBC, is way out of my budget. At least, it's good to know what's not available. Given this severe limitation, and since I don't intend to give up entirely, I seem to have three choices: a) send the tapes to a (cheap as possible) third party, in the hope that their equipment will be adequate for the job; b) soldier on with my cheap and cheerless wire and plastic Composite>USB leads, which seem no worse than the more expensive Hauppauge gadgets that I've bought, and do at least allow me to capture in more than MPEG2; or c) spend again on a more expensive gadget, like the Elgato (which has no TBC at all), or maybe the IntensityPro4K (which has TBC printed on the box).

Any suggestions as to a, b, or c? If people think c), what would presently be the best option in the region of £100>£200max (new or used), for doing capture from very old VHS tapes to a capable Win7 system, with a view to improving them once digitised?

[usually_quiet]

I have a long piece on TBCs in my signature

Thanks for that, which is very clear and informative. It looks like a separate TBC, or a better VCR with inbuilt TBC, is way out of my budget. At least, it's good to know what's not available. Given this severe limitation, and since I don't intend to give up entirely, I seem to have three choices: a) send the tapes to a (cheap as possible) third party, in the hope that their equipment will be adequate for the job; b) soldier on with my cheap and cheerless wire and plastic Composite>USB leads, which seem no worse than the more expensive Hauppauge gadgets that I've bought, and do at least allow me to capture in more than MPEG2; or c) spend again on a more expensive gadget, like the Elgato (which has no TBC at all), or maybe the IntensityPro4K (which has TBC printed on the box).

Any suggestions as to a, b, or c? If people think c), what would presently be the best option in the region of £100>£200max (new or used), for doing capture from very old VHS tapes to a capable Win7 system, with a view to improving them once digitised?

The Elgato Video Capture is more expensive than similar products mostly due to the included software, which is strictly for OS X, not the hardware. If you use Windows, you have to use third-party software.

Seriously, forget about using any of the current HD or 4K BlackMagic capture devices for VHS capture. They frequently fall over when presented with the relatively disorderly SD analog signals produced when playing analog tapes without a good stand-alone TBC between the VCR and the capture device. They demand perfect, orderly, analog signals. If they have a built-in TBC, it isn't great. [Edit] Thread about the Intensity Pro 4K: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/370738-BMD-Intensity-Pro-4K-includes-a-professiona...rade-TBC-(Nope!)

[jackdaws]

Thanks to everyone for their comments and suggestions. It looks as though I'd be wasting my money even upgrading my first device (it calls itself a ClimaxDigital VCAP303, for what it's worth), which cost me less than £15. I'm surprised, and somewhat disappointed, but at least your advice will have saved me money.

[jagabo]

I disagree with lordsmurf about using an ES10 or ES15 only to remove flagging. If you don't have an S-VHS deck with a line TBC using one of those DVD recorders in passthrough mode is the best thing you can do for VHS capture. All VHS (and other consumer helical scan formats) playback results in horizontal sync shifts (because the drum is speeding up and slowing down all the time). This results in every scan line having a different length and moving randomly left and right by a few pixels.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-w...er#post1983288
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/306272-Computer-video-capture-vs-vcr-to-dvd-combo#post1882662

Aside from looking bad it's a killer of compression with MPEG2, h.264, etc. This cannot be fixed post-capture. Other changes the devices may make to the signal are insignificant compared to the that fix. Be sure to turn off the noise reduction filter as it's too strong and results in ghosting. And be sure to set the input and output levels correctly to prevent banding.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/380285-Where-did-I-go-wrong-What-am-I-missing#post2460874

[lordsmurf]

If you don't have an S-VHS deck with a line TBC using one of those DVD recorders in passthrough mode is the best thing you can do for VHS capture.

I don't disagree with this.

My only contention of that the ES10 isn't a TBC replacement, and does fail quite a bit when that is attempted. It does do decently as image-based line TBC correction, but it's not an external frame sync TBC. The capture may still balk, fail, or exhibit odd issues. May = not always.

a ClimaxDigital VCAP303

This is an EZcap rebadge.

[jackdaws]

a ClimaxDigital VCAP303

This is an EZcap rebadge.

It cost about £15 on Amazon. The included software is Arcsoft, and the driver was WinXP-specific. I did get it working in a manner of speaking but at best I'd get a very grainy picture, and the sound was about five seconds out of sync per hour. At worst, the capture failed within a few minutes. The Hauppauge cards I bought later (HVR1300 and the HD-PVR) perfomed even worse. One simply failed to capture anything, the other even crashed my computer on more than one occasion when trying to start the capture.

I've been on the blackmagicdesign site again this evening. It really is pretty clear that they reckon the intensity pro 4k is the (entry-level) bees-knees. Things like "capture anything from anywhere" and "broadcast-grade timebase correction", are repeated - in between lots of photos of cool dudes (Oh how I wish that I was that cool). Now, I understand that this company is regarded fairly highly by most on this forum, so whilst I'm really not expecting a 1980s poor quality home VHS to be captured as airbrushed as are their models, I'd be delighted just to have successfully captured some 20-minute or half-hour chunks that I can join together later, and that don't leave me waiting half a minute for the audio to catch up with the video. Since the views held about the company are generally positive (I'm beginning to sound like a salesperson, here) how does this square with the views of many regarding the intensity pro 4k - albeit three years ago, when it was new on the market?

[jagabo]

I don't know about the Intensity Pro 4K, but there have been a few posts here about the earlier Intensity Pro. When the users had problems with VHS they called tech support and were simply told the device is for professionals and professionals don't capture VHS. So no support. Even if it works, it's a huge waste of money for SD capture. As others have pointed out SD is an afterthought on such devices. Decent SD capture devices start around US$35.

I recommend you look for a used Panasonic ES10 or ES15 for around US$100. You may even find one with a bad DVD drive for much less (you don't need a functioning DVD drive for passthrough). Then run composite from your VHS deck to the ES1x and s-video from the ES1x to your current capture device. See how it looks.

[jackdaws]

Thanks Jagabo. I'm convinced. I just bought an ES10. Now, about that capture device. Okay, the IP4k is a no-no, and I won't need to go onto that blackmagic website with all the cool dude, 25-something models again (boo hoo). Since I've just bought the ES10, which capture device had you had in mind for my purposes when you mentioned the word "decent"? - - bearing in mind that I've spent so much time learning about video capture lately that I think I've fallen in love with the idea of one day getting a camcorder .... shame to let the few grey cells I have left go to waste.

I should add that I would like to capture into open source when possible, mkv, etc, even flac if that's done (here I show my ignorance again).

[jagabo]

which capture device had you had in mind for my purposes when you mentioned the word "decent"?

Several have been listed already in this thread. The genuine EZCap is supposed to be decent too. But there are many counterfeit versions, mostly with the name EasyCap, but some with EZCap. If you buy one get it directly from EZCap.TV.

But I think you should try your current card first. You may find the results acceptable.

[jackdaws]

Thanks to everyone here for your help. I'm looking forward to the new DVD recorder pass-through device, and may play it by ear(eye) when it gets here, if I haven't been tempted by the cool dudes at Blackmagic in the meantime!