Capturing via DV passthrough or with S-video capture card?

[Alwyn]

Fingers crossed!

[JN-]

[Attachment 82487 - Click to enlarge]

Works aok. Used VHS tape, output RCA/Phono connectors VHS --> GS400 --> PC via firewire. Didn't test S-Video instead of phono but I'm sure it would also work.

Set GS400 to playback without DV tape.

[Alwyn]

Excellent news.

[JN-]

I’d nearly forgotten about testing using via usb, see post #32. I’ll post findings when I do do that.

One oddity re: Mediainfo. I assumed that the 16:9 Pro Cinema file was progressive vs interlaced for DV standard and DV 16:9 modes. Mediainfo reports all three files as interlaced. I spent some time trying to figure which setting I had overlooked if any, for the 16:9 Pro Cinema output.

However, when I loaded the Pro Cinema file into Vegas Pro it identified it as Progressive.

[Alwyn]

I wouldn't have read "progressive" capture into the manual explanation of "Pro-cinema".

[JN-]

I probably got that from inet. i.e. that Pro Cinema takes two of the interlaced frames close together in time and puts them together to make a single frame.

https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-61265.html
“Frame mode creates a progressive frame. Both fields are taken simultaneously and combined in the DSP to create a full frame. The combining process does create a 480 line (NTSC) or 576 line (PAL) frame but the resolution is not the same as if the frame was truly progressive. It looks really good, however, and in some regards is better than if you deinterlaced the video using software.”

I used this ffmpeg syntax to try and nail it down further.

SET _INPUT_FILE="%~n1%~x1"
SET _INPUT_FILENAME="%~n1"
ffmpeg -y -an -sn -dn -i %_INPUT_FILE% -filter:v 'idet' 2>%_INPUT_FILENAME%.txt -f null -

I have output (using NV-GS400) from tape 3 DV.avi test files. 1st. is standard DV, 2nd. is 16-9 DV and 3rd. is 16-9 Pro Cinema pro.

In that order they are 243, 254 and 309 frames in duration.

1st.
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 000002880afe6440] Repeated Fields: Neither: 243 Top: 0 Bottom: 0
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 000002880afe6440] Single frame detection: TFF: 0 BFF: 24 Progressive: 0 Undetermined: 219
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 000002880afe6440] Multi frame detection: TFF: 0 BFF: 44 Progressive: 0 Undetermined: 199

2nd.
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 0000016dc0f36440] Repeated Fields: Neither: 254 Top: 0 Bottom: 0
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 0000016dc0f36440] Single frame detection: TFF: 0 BFF: 0 Progressive: 0 Undetermined: 254
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 0000016dc0f36440] Multi frame detection: TFF: 0 BFF: 0 Progressive: 0 Undetermined: 254

3rd.
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 0000023083f05440] Repeated Fields: Neither: 309 Top: 0 Bottom: 0
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 0000023083f05440] Single frame detection: TFF: 0 BFF: 0 Progressive: 33 Undetermined: 276
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 0000023083f05440] Multi frame detection: TFF: 0 BFF: 0 Progressive: 294 Undetermined: 15

I can make available the test files if u know of a way to check out for Interlaced/Progressive.

The above results do appear to show progressive, probably. i.e. multi frame detection ...
Progressive 294. Undetermined 15 out of a total of 309 frames.

[Alwyn]

I can make available the test files if u know of a way to check out for Interlaced/Progressive.

Easily done in AVISynth (SeparateFields() ), or Vdub (Deinterlace, Double-Rate BFF) and step through the fields. After you've done that, if you get duplicated frames, it's Progressive. If each frame is different, it's Interlaced.

Chuck one up, we'll have a play.

[JN-]

Thanks. I'm not familiar with those programs and there are only so many hours in the day.

The Panasonic pdf info on “Frame mode” was located here but no longer AFAIK. By Steve Mullen.
ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/papers/Progressive-WP.pdf

[Alwyn]

Hours in the day... how true.

[jagabo]

There's not enough motion in those clips for a definitive analysis. But they all appear to be progressive (encoded interlaced).

[JN-]

Thanks Jagabo. When I did the 3 test clips I was only curious if there was a perceived quality difference between the “Frame mode/Pro Cinema mode and the 16:9 mode. AFAIKSee theres not much in it, the frame mode looks pretty good though.

I was also curious to see if there was any loss going from 4:3 to 16:9 widescreen, but I couldn't see any. So I can see why users would have used one of the widescreen modes mainly.

I wasn't thinking at that time of confirming if it was progressive. If it's any help I can do another Pro Cinema frame mode with movement?

Will do one shortly and upload.

Some users opinions on what frame mode is … https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-45344.html

[JN-]

This is a 2nd. set of 3 files with motion. I used ffmpeg to output a text file for each one.

It shows BFF progressive? for the 1st. 2 files and just progressive for the 3rd. Pro Cinema file.

Am interested if you can analyse these 3 better, thanks.

[JN-]

THE_DOMAN. RE: capturing/copying via USB.

The Video Stream Driver is not allowed to be installed by Win 10 OS. I had it on a "MotionDV Studio 5.3E LE CD.

Not the end of the world as the firewire works aok. Thanks anyway.

[The_Doman]

THE_DOMAN. RE: capturing/copying via USB.

The Video Stream Driver is not allowed to be installed by Win 10 OS. I had it on a "MotionDV Studio 5.3E LE CD.

From what i understand (and remember from long time ago) you not need(want) to install special(old) drivers?
What happens when you just connect the camera?
How/what does it show in device manager?

Scenalyzerlive should be able to capture from USB too.
But then Windows 10 can behave differently may be.

also:

You do not need MotionDV to do DV over USB with Win 10 and 11. There is a comprehensive speil on this on my website here. Scroll down to the DV over USB section.

[JN-]

Fair enough. I tried first without attempting to install anything and with menu setting as per manual VP capture and Nero video capture SW didn't see camera.

I then tried installing driver.

I didn't think of checking device driver. I'll do that and get back.

[jagabo]

1 and 2 are interlaced (25i with motion at each field, 50 different fields per second). 3 is progressive (motion at each frame, 25 different frames per second).

[JN-]

Truly excellent, thanks. It's as I expected from reading about it, more or less. The ffmpeg method was close but not quite as accurate as your results.

[JN-]

The_Doman.

I read your excellent instructions again, had previously done. Anyway tried it on a Win 11 PC and used sceneanalyzer, works great, amazing.

I’ll probably try again tomorrow on the Win 10 PC.

Got message disk full when attempting to capture in folder on D:, so changed to C:.

Also cannot install sclive. Ok Windows saw my attempt and offered to install in compatibility mode. Done.

[JN-]

Just for the record this was a PAL Panasonic NV-GS400EB model.

[The_Doman]

I read your excellent instructions again, had previously done. Anyway tried it on a Win 11 PC and used sceneanalyzer, works great, amazing.

Yes, Scenalyzer is a great, convenient tool.

That is why i always like the seamless segmented capture feature of ScenalyzerLive so much.
It can capture in "finished" segments which can be joined/merged afterwards without losing any frames.
That is also so convenient when you doing "marathon" long captures and easily can keep/delete the parts you want.
I really miss that feature, seamless segmented capture, in VirtualDub/AmarecTV.
The old AVi_io also did this perfectly.

Got message disk full when attempting to capture in folder on D:, so changed to C:.

Ah yes, the Scenalyzer disk full issue, that always creeps up from time to time.
Take a look here:
Scenalyzer reports full disk

But great you got a nice working DV capture solution now.

[JN-]

Indeed. Nice to have both firewire and USB options. I had always assumed it wasn't possible via USB. The file appears similar to firewire capture and no dropped frames. Simply great.

As I said I will try again on Win 10 PC tomorrow, I may have misstepped earlier. I'll check out that link, thanks.

[JN-]

Tomorrow came early. Tried again on Win 10 PC. USB capture/copy works fine using Sceneanalyzer. The Vegas Vidcapture SW only captures video, no audio. I do have the check box for audio enabled. Anyway, great to have so many options.

[Alwyn]

@JN, I'd do some tests before using "Frame" mode. In my experience, shooting DV at 25i and then deinterlacing it to 50p results in much smoother video, which is a major consideration with hand-held home movies, especially with small camcorders where it is difficult to keep them really steady. The difference is smoothness is quite obvious. Frame mode at 25p won't be as smooth.

Edit:
Comparisons attached.

The 25i Widescreen, deinterlaced with VDub (YADIF Double Rate BFF), and the stock Cinema Mode file.

The 25i file would look even better deinterlaced with, for example, QTGMC.

[JN-]

@Alwyn

Thanks for all of that Alwyn. I'd say if your analysis was available in 2004 it would have been appreciated, there was discussion at the time whether the approach you used was better/worse than simply using SOOC.

[Alwyn]

Yes, I had a chuckle about that as I read it. Deinterlacing is so much more mainstream now, especially with fast computers that can deinterlace a one hour file in almost half the time.

[JN-]

How times have changed. Deinterlacing is probably not as big a requirement nowadays other than converting over the air satellite movies etc.

[Alwyn]

And DV, and analogue captures...

[JN-]

For sure.