Capturing via DV passthrough or with S-video capture card?

[Kocane]

Hi fellas
I'm planning to digitize some tapes. I got a Panasonic GS400 and a Hitachi 8mm with TBC. I've set up passthrough going from the one camera to the other, and it works fine on my Mac Mini where I use some old tool called Vidi, which seems to just save as .DV which is as "original quality" as it gets (right?).

While it looks nice I'm still wondering whether this is the method to settle on. The RCA -> 3.5mm cable isn't s-video.

So my question is; what is likely better - RCA passthrough a DV camera or capturing s-video?

Thanks,

[JVRaines]

For highest quality, you should run s-video into a digital converter and store in lossless format. DV is compressed.

[Kocane]

For highest quality, you should run s-video into a digital converter and store in lossless format. DV is compressed.

What could an example of a digital converter be?

[LMotlow]

Looks as if Kocane is using a Mac, so inferior DV lossy encoding is the only choice.

[Kocane]

Looks as if Kocane is using a Mac, so inferior DV lossy encoding is the only choice.

Well my primary is a Windows computer, I'm just using the Mac Mini for it's firewire.

It's still just old hometapes I'm digitizing so expensive equipment is probably not what I had in mind. So it kinda comes down to s-video+capturecard vs composite+dv passthrough

[JVRaines]

For highest quality, you should run s-video into a digital converter and store in lossless format. DV is compressed.

What could an example of a digital converter be?

Anything from a dodgy $15 USB dongle:



To a $5,000 broadcast-quality frame sync/converter:

[Cornucopia]

For the GS400, tapes from it was/were already encoded as DV, so the best, fastest, most straightforward way to capture is via FireWire DV transfer. Though I would not use VIDI, but rather iMovie.

For the Hitachi 8mm, if that is Digital 8, then I would also go FireWire DV. Otherwise those tapes could possibly be better suited by S-video + cap card/device and storing losslessly (or if you are stuck on the Mac side for those as well, ProRes).

Scott

[LMotlow]

For the GS400, tapes from it was/were already encoded as DV, so the best, fastest, most straightforward way to capture is via FireWire DV transfer. Though I would not use VIDI, but rather iMovie.

For the Hitachi 8mm, if that is Digital 8, then I would also go FireWire DV. Otherwise those tapes could possibly be better suited by S-video + cap card/device and storing losslessly (or if you are stuck on the Mac side for those as well, ProRes).

Scott

Good thought. But I doubt, from what Kocane has posted, that better quality is a concern and I suspect it wouldn't be recognized anyway. From what he/she says it's already decided, and learning something new would be inconvenient.

[Kocane]

For the GS400, tapes from it was/were already encoded as DV, so the best, fastest, most straightforward way to capture is via FireWire DV transfer. Though I would not use VIDI, but rather iMovie.

For the Hitachi 8mm, if that is Digital 8, then I would also go FireWire DV. Otherwise those tapes could possibly be better suited by S-video + cap card/device and storing losslessly (or if you are stuck on the Mac side for those as well, ProRes).

Scott

Thanks. iMovie just seems like it wants to make my videos into .mov or deinterlace them with whatever method they're using, which is not what I had in mind, and why I thought Vidi semed like a nice method to just get the .DV file and then encode and deinterlace with H264.

As for the 8mm tapes, it's a combination of video8 and hi8 so analog, yeah. I thought passthrough a firewire camera like my panasonic could be a good idea but if it's lossy then I guess the better method is to go with my Hauppauge USB Live 2 and S-video.

Good thought. But I doubt, from what Kocane has posted, that better quality is a concern and I suspect it wouldn't be recognized anyway. From what he/she says it's already decided, and learning something new would be inconvenient.

Huh

[jagabo]

As for the 8mm tapes, it's a combination of video8 and hi8 so analog, yeah. I thought passthrough a firewire camera like my panasonic could be a good idea but if it's lossy then I guess the better method is to go with my Hauppauge USB Live 2 and S-video.

You'll also need an S-video deck, line TBC, and full frame TBC if you want results better than the D8 camcorder with firewire.

[JVRaines]

As for the 8mm tapes, it's a combination of video8 and hi8 so analog, yeah. I thought passthrough a firewire camera like my panasonic could be a good idea but if it's lossy then I guess the better method is to go with my Hauppauge USB Live 2 and S-video.

You'll also need an S-video deck, line TBC, and full frame TBC if you want results better than the D8 camcorder with firewire.

Arguable, depending on how good the GS400 is at stabilization. There is still a trade-off against DV's increased color decimation. Does the Hitachi camcorder already have s-video out?

[Kocane]

As for the 8mm tapes, it's a combination of video8 and hi8 so analog, yeah. I thought passthrough a firewire camera like my panasonic could be a good idea but if it's lossy then I guess the better method is to go with my Hauppauge USB Live 2 and S-video.

You'll also need an S-video deck, line TBC, and full frame TBC if you want results better than the D8 camcorder with firewire.

Arguable, depending on how good the GS400 is at stabilization. There is still a trade-off against DV's increased color decimation. Does the Hitachi camcorder already have s-video out?

The Hi8 Hitachi camcorder does TBC and S-Video out, yes. I'm not really sure I get DV passthrough, though. Even tho the 8mm video is just passing through the camcorder is the footage still affected by the DV compression like if it was recorded onto the tape?

[jagabo]

From what I've heard, most DV camcorders with analog passthrough apply the TBC to the signal. And the analog passthrough is the signal before DV compression, so it's free of DV artifacts. The firewire output is always DV compressed.

[JVRaines]

The GS400 has a single s-video jack for input and output, so I don't see how you could use it for analog passthrough.

[Kocane]

The GS400 has a single s-video jack for input and output, so I don't see how you could use it for analog passthrough.

RCA --> 3.5mm? It's not s-video which is my point.

[lordsmurf]

From what I've heard, most DV camcorders with analog passthrough apply the TBC to the signal. And the analog passthrough is the signal before DV compression, so it's free of DV artifacts. The firewire output is always DV compressed.

The analog output has DV conversion applied. It doesn't know how to do anything else. It goes in, gets processed TBC+DV, then is output over either Firewire or analog.

In fact, most cameras have a shared s-video in/out port, with menu selection to change direction.

And many (most?) DV cameras don't have passthrough ability at all.

Cameras probably could have existed as you state, but I don't think any model does so. The intention was to always transfer analog over Firewire or save to tape. That feature came in later years, and was not originally part of the plan for DV.

Some don't even allow s-video, and composite is the only output choice.

[Kocane]

Well, I'm an idiot, I oversaw the IN/OUT next to the S-video port on my Panasonic, which means I can passthrough s-video from my analogue hitachi to my DV panasonic. Whether or not the DV transfer is better quality than using my Hauppauge USB Live 2 capture card, I gotta compare side by side I guess.

[JVRaines]

That's an INPUT and DV encoding, not pass-through. The idea of pass-through is that you put in an analog signal and you get an analog signal out. You will be getting an encoded DV signal out. All else being equal, DV will not look as good as uncompressed or losslessly-compressed video.

[Kocane]

That's an INPUT and DV encoding.

But what else can I do with a DV camera with "pass-through". Calling it pass-through is just bullshit then? But I see what you mean, I was just under the impression that something like my Hauppauge USB Live 2 also could have quality loss of sorts.

[Cornucopia]

Contrary to what JVRaines stated, from my memory, "Analog Pass-through" on DV cameras has always meant separate analog input ports + (live) dv encoding onto firewire IO port.
If there's no separate analog output as well as input (or if there's only one switchable), there's no way it could truly PASS THROUGH. But then, why would you? To pass through in that manner would be the same as a straight direct cable connection bypassing the device.
If you assumed it would input analog, digitize to digital uncompressed with framestore (quasi-tbc), then d->a back to analog and back out, that is NOT a common feature. And that's not truly passing through, since it would be being acted upon by the digitizing (even if uncompressed).

Scott

[lordsmurf]

Yes, "passthrough" on DV cameras is s-video/composite in > Firewire out. I don't think I've ever seen one with both analog in AND out.

And technically, you're probably right -- ie not really "passthrough" (transparent/unity).
But it's still the accepted lingo of in>processing>out

[Cornucopia]

Yes, accepted lingo. Except a few who don't know the history, I guess.

Scott

[lordsmurf]

a few who don't know the history, I guess.

Or forget.

[JN-]

As best I can understand it then CAN the GS400 do “pass through” as is understood in the accepted sense. That is does it have say composite/S-video inputs on GS400 to take output from say an analogue source and then output DV using firewire. I am considering getting a GS400 to do this but figuring the online manual wasn’t that clear to me. Thanks.

[dellsam34]

Yes the GS400 according to the manual can take an analog source and digitize it and spit it out as DV via firewire, Albeit with a slight loss in quality due to DV compression, if your playback device built in line TBC and have S-Video out use it in conjunction with an analog capture device for better quality instead of using the GS400 camcorder.

[lordsmurf]

Worth noting here: Understand that "passthrough" does not equate to "line TBC".

I don't understand why people want to use 1990s tech (DV) to convert videos. It was superseded by lossless in the 2000s (which is what we still use in the 2020s, for SD analog ingest).

[dellsam34]

Especially if encoding to a modern codec is the final goal, Using DV as a middle man is a waste of time and quality.

[JN-]

Thanks for confirming dellsam34.


PAL land ...
With source VHS/SVHS and V8 tapes I assumed that VHS -> DV cam with passthrough -> firewire capture card -> DV25 codec that any difference between source and DV25 would be tiny, not visually noticeable given that the VHS and V8 are roughly half the resolution of DV25.

I have read somewhere that the DV25's 5 to 1 compression is fairly good. I convert it to h264 usually as final.

SVHS capture that way also might still not have any visually noticeable difference?

I don't have a TBC and imagine sourcing one on say eBay that would actually work ok would be a challenge.

[JN-]

One last query. Some camcorders had the passthrough disabled in european versions.

Is it likely to be the case with the GS400? Is there a way of checking if that’s the case before purchasing a second hand one.

[Alwyn]

One last query. Some camcorders had the passthrough disabled in european versions.

Is it likely to be the case with the GS400?

I doubt it. According to the GS 400 manual from Manualslib, it does AV>DV Passthrough (page 61):


[Attachment 82165 - Click to enlarge]

You could ask the seller to check that "DV OUT" is shown in the menu (as per dot point 2).