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  1. Member
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    Hi all,

    I've been converting DVDs to MP4s using handbrake for many years and have always used Bob deinterlacing and left the Framerate as "Same as source / Variable". For PAL content this results in a 25fps MP4.

    I understand the basics of deinterlaced content but have a question that I've never found a definitive answer to... Should I be setting the output format to 50fps, or leave it as 25fps (same as source)?

    I've seen people say setting it to 50fps will only result in duplicated fields, but I've tried it myself and I do seem to get 50 unique fields (I can verify this with editing software), so I'm not sure if there's another reason (relating to the quality) that this should not be done? If I understance correctly, PAL DVD recordings at "25i fps" should deinterlace to "50p fps", in the same way that "1080i 25fps" would deinterlace to "1080p 50fps".

    I would be grateful if someone could confirm if I should be setting the output to 50fps, or if the quality is better leaving it at 25fps. Likewise please advise if there are any mistakes in my understanding.

    Many thanks

    Sam
    Last edited by MrExcel; 19th Feb 2018 at 09:34.
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    All,

    Sorry to waste people's time - I have only just realised that coverting a PAL DVD using Bob results in a 50fps file anyway - even when the framerate is left as "same as source". I really thought this produced a 25 fps file.

    Happy for this thread to be closed/deleted (I'm not sure how to do that myself?).

    Thanks!

    Sam
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  3. Check your output files. Handbrake doesn't always double the frame rate when bob is selected and the output framerate is Same As Source. It depends on some other settings too. For example, using Deinterlace:decomb will not double the frame rate. Using Deinterlace:Yadif will.

    And routinely bobbing all your videos isn't the best for most film sources (most movies, TV shows, etc.). Every pair of frames will be identical, making them harder to play back smoothly, and wasting some bitrate.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Check your output files. Handbrake doesn't always double the frame rate when bob is selected. It depends on some other settings too.

    And routinely bobbing all your videos isn't the best for most film sources (most movies, TV shows, etc.). Every pair of frames will be identical, making them harder to play back smoothly, and wasting some bitrate.
    Hi, thanks for your reply.

    Perhaps that's why I thought it only output 25fps. So which other settings would it depend on?

    The DVDs I'm converting are home-made recordings from TV that were recorded using a DVD recorder, they are not commercial DVDs. I would like to end up with MP4's that are progressive (deinterlaced) and in the best quality possible. So if you're saying bobbing isn't the best way, what should I be doing instead?

    Incidentally, I tried viewing one of the 50fps output files in my editing software, where I can see it frame-by-frame, and I can see 50 individual unique/different frames per second?

    Thanks in advance
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    jagabo, re your edit, I've just realised I've been using an old version of Handbrake all this time - the software had been telling me I was using the latest version.

    I've never use Decomb as I was told this was not the best method. So should I be using Yadif or Decomb? And also, what are the best Preset and Interlace Dection settings for the types of DVDs I'm encoding?

    If it makes a difference, the DVD's are mostly tennis match recordings, so I'm after the best quality settings for a little ball moving up and down the screen!

    Appreciate your time, many thanks.
    Last edited by MrExcel; 19th Feb 2018 at 09:39.
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  6. Originally Posted by MrExcel View Post
    I tried viewing one of the 50fps output files in my editing software, where I can see it frame-by-frame, and I can see 50 individual unique/different frames per second?
    That indicates the source was true interlaced video (50 fields per second), not film (24 frames per second, normally sped up to 25 frames per second for PAL broadcast/DVD). Bobbing such a source to 50 frames per second is appropriate if you want progressive video. Was this live sports, news, or some old TV show (a lot of old BBC shows were shot with video cameras)? If you have any movies take a close look at one of those to compare.

    I don't normally use Handbrake so I don't know much about its internals and can't give lots of specific advice about it. But there's no single setting that's best for all sources.

    Ah, I see your next post states it's mostly tennis. 50p is appropriate for that.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by MrExcel View Post
    I tried viewing one of the 50fps output files in my editing software, where I can see it frame-by-frame, and I can see 50 individual unique/different frames per second?
    That indicates the source was true interlaced video (50 fields per second), not film (24 frames per second, normally sped up to 25 frames per second for PAL broadcast/DVD). Bobbing such a source to 50 frames per second is appropriate if you want progressive video. Was this live sports, news, or some old TV show (a lot of old BBC shows were shot with video cameras)? If you have any movies take a close look at one of those to compare.

    I don't normally use Handbrake so I don't know much about its internals and can't give lots of specific advice about it. But there's no single setting that's best for all sources.

    Ah, I see your next post states it's mostly tennis. 50p is appropriate for that.
    Again, thanks for the reply. Yes it's mostly tennis DVDs I'm talking about, which will all be recorded from TV using a DVR.

    You say you don't usually use handbrake, so which software would you suggest using for this? Basically I would like to know the best way to convert these DVDs to progressive MP4's with the highest possible quality. I'm happy to change software if that's what I need to do, even if it means paying for it.

    Many thanks.
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  8. I usually use AviSynth and the x264 command line encoder. That may be more of a learning curve than you want to deal with.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    I usually use AviSynth and the x264 command line encoder. That may be more of a learning curve than you want to deal with.
    Fair enough! From what I'm reading the general feeling is that to preserve the best quality it's better to leave videos interlaced and let your TV/media player do the deinterlacing anyway - would you agree with that? Appreciate your help jagabo.

    Having said that, if anyone else more familiar with Handbrake has some recommended settings for me that would be great. I would like to know the best Deinterlace/Preset/Interlace Detection settings for converting interlaced home DVD recordings of tennis to progressive/deinterlaced videos. I'm still not sure whether Yadif or Decomb is better, or what sub-settings to use after that.

    Many thanks in advance.
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  10. Originally Posted by MrExcel View Post
    From what I'm reading the general feeling is that to preserve the best quality it's better to leave videos interlaced and let your TV/media player do the deinterlacing anyway - would you agree with that?
    I think the best software deinterlacer (QTGMC in AviSynth) is better than that in any DVD/BD player or TV available now. Handbrake's deinterlacing is probably better than the average player/TV. But in the future new TVs may use better deinterlacers. If you deinterlace in software now you will be stuck with whatever deinterlace quality you get and a new TV will not be able to make it better. So keep a backup of the original interlaced video if the recordings are really important to you.

    If you want to upload a short sample clip I'll do a conversion with AviSynth so you can see what's possible. You can compare to what you get with Handbrake. Use a program like Dgindex of Mpg2Cut2 to extract the clip (they don't re-encode). Include a typical full court with both players visible and a closeup of a player in action (not a slow motion replay).

    QTGMC is one of the hardest filters for a beginner to get working because it involves downloading and installing several different filters from third parties. Once you get it working it's not hard to use though. Your AviSynth script may be as simple as:

    Code:
    Mpeg2Source("filename.d2v") # or another source filter like LWLibAVVideoSource("filename.vob")
    AssumeTFF()
    QTGMC()
    And QTGMC is pretty slow, much slower than Handbrake's Detelecine or Yadif (Handbrake's Yadif comes from the AviSynth filter of the same name). So you may not find it worth the time.

    Handbrake doesn't accept AviSynth scripts as input but MeGUI does. I think MeGui now comes with QTGMC -- so that may be the way to go.

    Handbrake doesn't officially support interlaced encoding but you can force it using the Extra Options box of the encoder settings. Enter "tff" or "bff" there (without the quotes) whichever is appropriate (probably the former in your case). And turn off all the video filtering, --no decomb, no bob, no noise reduction, etc. You may need to disable the cropping too.

    Originally Posted by MrExcel View Post
    Having said that, if anyone else more familiar with Handbrake has some recommended settings for me that would be great. I would like to know the best Deinterlace/Preset/Interlace Detection settings for converting interlaced home DVD recordings of tennis to progressive/deinterlaced videos. I'm still not sure whether Yadif or Decomb is better, or what sub-settings to use after that.
    In handbrake you really only have two choices Detelecine+Bob or Yadif+Bob. The detection setting should only make a difference when there is very little motion in the frame. In a tennis game that might be a shot where everything is still except the ball. The detector may not "see" that the ball is moving (since it's very tiny) and fail to deinterlace it.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Handbrake's deinterlacing is probably better than the average player/TV. In handbrake you really only have two choices Detelecine+Bob or Yadif+Bob. The detection setting should only make a difference when there is very little motion in the frame. In a tennis game that might be a shot where everything is still except the ball. The detector may not "see" that the ball is moving (since it's very tiny) and fail to deinterlace it.
    I don't understand what Detelecine is to be honest - would I ever need to use that or just stick to Deinterlace? If I'm sticking to Deinterlace, then I assume from what you've said that I would want to use the following settings...

    Deinterlace: Yadif
    Preset: Bob
    Interlace Detection: Off





    Would you say that's correct?



    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    If you want to upload a short sample clip I'll do a conversion with AviSynth so you can see what's possible.
    Thanks that would be great - what's the best way for me to upload it to you?
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  12. I've never checked this but... you probably want to leave Interlace Detection at Default.

    This site allows uploads of up to 500 MB. Use the Upload Files/Manage Attachments button below the edit boxes.
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  13. Member Bernix's Avatar
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    Hi,
    don't forget that Handbrake/Vidcoder has terrible audio aac codec. And also not best codec tuning to your wish. Main advantage of this software is queue (batch) lack of other filters is also disadvantage. Not sure if Yadif here has spatial and temporal check, which seems to me be better then not.

    Bernix
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    I've never checked this but... you probably want to leave Interlace Detection at Default.

    This site allows uploads of up to 500 MB. Use the Upload Files/Manage Attachments button below the edit boxes.
    Thanks, I've attached a 5 minute sample to this post. Thanks for your time.
    Image Attached Files
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    Originally Posted by Bernix View Post
    Hi,
    don't forget that Handbrake/Vidcoder has terrible audio aac codec. And also not best codec tuning to your wish. Main advantage of this software is queue (batch) lack of other filters is also disadvantage. Not sure if Yadif here has spatial and temporal check, which seems to me be better then not.

    Bernix
    Hi Bernix,

    Thanks for that. I'm open to other suggestions, but Handbrake is all I know. As jagabo said, something like AviSynth is probably going to be too complex for me, so is there anything inbetween that and Handbrake that would be good for my DVDs?

    Thanks!
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  16. Keep the AC3 audio from the DVD. Handbrake has settings for that.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Keep the AC3 audio from the DVD. Handbrake has settings for that.
    You mean don't let Handbrake encode the audio? Strip it out and add it back in afterwards?

    Did you get my sample file?

    Thanks
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  18. Handbrake can keep the original audio as it encodes the video. On the Audio tab, use the pulldown for the audio codec to select AC3 Passthru or Auto Passthru. If you're making MP4 files (M4V when audio is AC3) be aware that a lot of old players (AppleTV!) can't handle AC3.

    Yes, I got your sample. I'll upload some files later...
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Handbrake can keep the original audio as it encodes the video. On the Audio tab, use the pulldown for the audio codec to select AC3 Passthru or Auto Passthru. If you're making MP4 files (M4V when audio is AC3) be aware that a lot of old players (AppleTV!) can't handle AC3.

    Yes, I got your sample. I'll upload some files later...
    Got it, will use the passthru where I can. If I do need to play them on older players what format would I need to use, AAC, or something else?

    Thanks for doing the encoding for me
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  20. You'll want to use AAC for older devices. For really old devices that don't support MP4 you don't want to use Handbrake at all. Handbrake's AAC encoder isn't so bad. And these are tennis games, not music concerts; super high quality audio isn't necessary.

    Your sample encoded with QTGMC and Yadif are attached. I didn't include the audio, just the video.

    QTGMC script
    Code:
    Mpeg2Source("sample.d2v", CPU2="ooooxx", Info=3) 
    Crop(10,0,-6,-0)
    QTGMC()
    Yadif script
    Code:
    Mpeg2Source("sample.d2v", CPU2="ooooxx", Info=3) 
    Yadif(mode=1)
    Crop(10,2,-6,-2).AddBorders(0,2,0,2)
    x264 command line batch file
    Code:
    x264.exe --preset=slow --crf=18 --no-psy --keyint=50 --sar=16:11 --colormatrix=smpte170m --output "%~1.mkv" "%~1"
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    have you tried handbrake/vidcoder's decomb filter? it's a much more intelligent iteration of yadif. set to default/default and give it a go. passthrough audio included if it's going to output a mkv.
    --
    "a lot of people are better dead" - prisoner KSC2-303
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  22. I took a look at Handbrake's decomb+bob compared to AviSynth's QTGMC and Yadif. Here's an example cropped from frames 5566 to 5750 (after doubling the frame rate), enlarged 4x with a point resize filter (each pixel becomes a 4x4 square of pixels, not corrected for 16:11 SAR). Handbrake's decomb does look a little better than yadif, QTGMC looks best. Of course, this is a small portion of the frame and the differences in much of the rest of the frame (and video) aren't as pronounced.
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  23. Member Bernix's Avatar
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    Or you can do audio in Avidemux. It is easy, simply open your result, video copy, audio aac(FDK) bitrate what you wish 128 or 112 (it is good quality encoder, far better than one used in Handbrake/Vidcoder) output format (what container you want mkv, mp4 or other)
    You can also do whole dvd here, but it needs to copy all Vob files to HDD, than choose first it append rest. Advantage is you have full control over x264 x265 graphically with sliders or other way. You can also use presets, but it is not as strong as individual settings when you know what are you doing. Also it has Nvenv 264 and 265, not quality as x264 x265 at given bitrate, but super fast.
    At least worth to try it. In filters there are several deinterlacers, when choose yadif you have to tell what is field order if TFF or BFF. It is easy to get from mediainfo or when video loaded in Avidemux pressing I on top, it gives you info about video.

    Bernix
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    Thanks for everyone's comments.

    jagabo, thanks for the files and all your work. I have to say, I know QTGMC is supposed to be the best, but when I compare the two I think YADIF looks better? With QTGMC I see a slight trail from the ball, which I don't with YADIF. Although on your comparison file I agree QTGMC looks the best.

    I think ultimately, although I'm sure there is otherwise software which might get me slightly better results, I will stick to Handbrake as it's probably good enough for my needs. I've just run the same sample file through with the following permutations:

    Decomb/Default/Default
    Decomb/Bob/Default
    Yadif/Default/Default
    Yadif/Bob/Default

    From this I've found that I definitely need to be using Bob - neither of the videos with the Default preset are smooth. When I then compare the Bob videos, I think the Yadif one looks marginally better than Decomb - there's not much in it though.

    So I think I will be sticking with Handbrake and Yadif/Bob/Default.

    Many thanks to everyone for their help though, especially jagabo. I've improved my knowledge a lot with this
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  25. I had a quick play with the older version of Handbrake I have installed, and the difference seems to be when setting Bob as the de-inteerlacer, it de-interlaces every frame with Yadif (possibly). If you set "same as source" and "constant frame rate" it appears Handbrake deletes every second frame after Bob de-interlacing for the original frame rate. If you select "same as source" and "variable frame rate" or 50/59.940 and "constant" you get a constant double frame rate output.

    The Decomb filter is always variable frame rate, but apparently it doesn't just de-interlace with Yadif, it uses blend de-interlacing where it's deemed appropriate, and it doesn't de-interlace frames without combing. Any frames considerer to be duplicates are removed by the decomb filter (hence it always being VFR).
    When you select "variable" as the output frame rate, that's pretty much what you get. The frames considered progressive are untouched and the combed frames appear to be double frame rate de-interlaced.
    If you set constant, "same as source" for the output, Handbrake will once again delete every second frame in the sections that were Bob de-interlaced. If you set constant, 50fps/59.94fps as the output, the Decomb filter still removes frames it considers to be duplicates, then Handbrake adds them back to give you the requested constant frame rate. The "progressive" frames would also be repeated.

    That's how it seems to work when I played around, but I'm using an older version of Handbrake that runs on XP (0.9.9.5530). The log file is a little informative. If Handbrake has to drop/duplicate frames for a constant frame rate output it'll tell you.

    When setting Bob for the Decomb filter and a constant, same as source output:

    Code:
    [19:06:24] sync: got 900 frames, 929 expected
    [19:06:24] decomb: deinterlaced 1038 | blended 184 | unfiltered 288 | total 1510
    [19:06:24] render: 899 frames output, 611 dropped and 0 duped for CFR/PFR
    When setting Bob for the Decomb filter and a constant, 54.94fps output (NTSC source):

    Code:
    [19:09:40] sync: got 900 frames, 929 expected
    [19:09:40] decomb: deinterlaced 1038 | blended 184 | unfiltered 288 | total 1510
    [19:09:40] render: 1798 frames output, 0 dropped and 288 duped for CFR/PFR
    When setting Bob for the Deinterlace filter and a constant, same as source output:

    Code:
    [19:16:57] sync: got 900 frames, 929 expected
    [19:16:57] render: 899 frames output, 881 dropped and 0 duped for CFR/PFR
    When setting Bob for the Deinterlace filter and a constant, 59.94fps output:

    Code:
    [19:19:03] sync: got 900 frames, 929 expected
    [19:19:03] render: 1798 frames output, 2 dropped and 20 duped for CFR/PFR
    I'm not sure why it dropped a couple of frames and duplicated 20 for the last test. Maybe even the De-interlace filter doesn't de-interlace frames without combing when set to Bob. I'd have to play around more to try and work it out.
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    Hi guys,

    Another thing I'm noticing when using Yadif/Bob is that it's producing files with very large bitrates. I have an (SD) input file at 3.8GB which has a bitrate of 4506 - when I've run this through with Yadif/Bob and RF18 it produces a file 5.7GB with a bitrate of 7110!

    Is this normal for deinterlacing with Yadif/Bob, or do I need to use a higher RF value? I've just tried it with RF20 and even that results in 4.2GB and 5087 bitrate.

    I didn't think a bitrate should ever increase when encoding, unless the RF was too high. But I usually use 18-20 for SD content.

    Thanks,

    Sam
    Last edited by MrExcel; 22nd Feb 2018 at 07:07.
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  27. You may have been unlucky and picked a video that's hard to encode and Yadif/Bob has nothing to do with it. Unless Handbrake is doing something unusual.
    Bob de-interlacing shouldn't increase the bitrate by all that much when using CRF encoding (compared to original frame rate de-interlacing).

    7110kbps for CRF18 at a standard definition resolution does seem quite unusually high though.
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    Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    You may have been unlucky and picked a video that's hard to encode and Yadif/Bob has nothing to do with it. Unless Handbrake is doing something unusual.
    Bob de-interlacing shouldn't increase the bitrate by all that much when using CRF encoding (compared to original frame rate de-interlacing).

    7110kbps for CRF18 at a standard definition resolution does seem quite unusually high though.
    Hello hello_hello

    I thought that too, but I've just tried it with a completely separate file - this time a DVD where the original size was 2.83GB. MediaInfo won't tell me what the bitrate is for some reason, but I don't believe it's very high.

    When I use Handbrake to convert this to an MP4, with Yadif/Bob and RF18, it gives me a 4.74GB file with a 7890 bitrate.

    I'm not doing anything else differently to what I would usually, so I'm confused. I'm going to try again with Decomb/Bob out of interest to compare.
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    Originally Posted by MrExcel View Post
    Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    You may have been unlucky and picked a video that's hard to encode and Yadif/Bob has nothing to do with it. Unless Handbrake is doing something unusual.
    Bob de-interlacing shouldn't increase the bitrate by all that much when using CRF encoding (compared to original frame rate de-interlacing).

    7110kbps for CRF18 at a standard definition resolution does seem quite unusually high though.
    Hello hello_hello

    I thought that too, but I've just tried it with a completely separate file - this time a DVD where the original size was 2.83GB. MediaInfo won't tell me what the bitrate is for some reason, but I don't believe it's very high.

    When I use Handbrake to convert this to an MP4, with Yadif/Bob and RF18, it gives me a 4.74GB file with a 7890 bitrate.

    I'm not doing anything else differently to what I would usually, so I'm confused. I'm going to try again with Decomb/Bob out of interest to compare.
    With Decomb/Bob the file size and bitrate come down slightly, but it's still way more than I started with (3.79GB and 6251 bitrate). So I'm very confused.

    Seems the only way for me to keep the filesize and bitrate sensible is to use Average Bitrate. I know CRF is the better option, but can't understand why that's giving me larger files (which is only since I started using the latest version of Handbrake - v1.0.7).

    Does anyone have any ideas?
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  30. High bitrates with Yadif and Decomb aren't too surprising. They leave lots of little defects all over the place. x264 considers those to part of the picture and at CRF 18 works hard to retain them.

    Your MPEG source has lots of blocking and DCT ringing artifacts that are hard to compress.

    Also, what x264 settings are you using? The Ultrafast and Superfast presets are very inefficient in terms of bitrate. Veryfast and the rest are much better in that regard.
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