Connecting a TBC-1000 To Capture VHS

[TazDave]

Hi, I just purchased a TBC-1000 & I would like some help connecting it to my PC to capture my VHS tapes.

Do I need a special card in my PC? In the past I have been using a dmr-es10 connected to my VHS & then connected to easycap USB capture device which I know is rubbish but has done a reasonable job.

Any help would be appreciated with connecting cables to the right place.

Thank you

[orsetto]

You don't need to change any hardware in your PC. The DataVideo connects in exactly the same way as your ES-10: in fact you would usually swap the TBC1000 in to replace your ES10, between VCR and EZcap.

Presumably you bought the DataVideo because you have a problem the ES10 cannot fix for you. If so, be aware the DataVideo cannot do the "miracle repairs" of the ES10 (such as correct flagging, straighten crooked verticals, reduce jitter/judder, etc). IOW, the ES10 fixes the problems you can see, the DataVideo typically fixes problems you can't see (such as lipsync/dropped frames), although it also corrects the fake/true MacroVision issue that the ES10 can't filter out.

Normally you would not want to use the ES10 and DataVideo together in the same hardware chain: depending on the tape, they can overcorrect or conflict with each other. Then again, others here say they keep them both connected at all times with no drama. I recommend experimenting with each important tape to see which setup gives the best result. If using both, don't forget to try switching the positions to see if anything changes for better or worse:

VCR>DtaVideo>ES10>EZcap -or- VCR>ES10>DataVideo>EZcap

Regarding EZcap: if yours is the "real, genuine" EZcap it would be hard to improve on in any significant way without spending a lot of money and/or a lot of time experimenting. The "genuine" EZcap is "good enough" for most people: finding something better has become increasingly difficult in recent years, because demand for such products has fallen off quite a lot from a decade ago.

If your EZcap is a counterfeit /fake version, you might consider replacing it with the "real, original" version which is at least predictable and reliable. There are alternatives from brands like Hauppauge, but they're largely similar with minor performance distinctions: these USB dongles are all either "adequate" or "terrible". A small handful of internal video boards made for desktop PCs were noticeably better, but they've been discontinued for years (and some don't work compatibly beyond Windows XP). Then you get into workflows like fully lossless initial capture, which you then tweak in video processing software, before reducing the humongous files to a more plausible everyday MP4 or MKV, etc. Fine for priceless videos, not a picnic if you mostly have loads of mediocre tapes that aren't of earthshattering importance to you.

The heyday of analog video capture has long since passed. Even then, doing it at the highest level was an esoteric undertaking. Today, its become even more rarefied, to the point if you haven't already been doing it with top gear for 10 years, it is very difficult to know how to pick thru the limited amount of high performance capture devices that are still available (many of them second-hand). The EZcap can be bettered, sure, but by how much, and at what cost of effort and money, is a tough question today.

[TazDave]

Hi Orsetto, thank you for the reply. My ES 10 was doing a great job until I tried to transferthis particular tape.

When I play the tape with the ES10 I can't fix the tracking, there is a large static line at the top of the video, now I use 2 different VCR'S & clean them before every job.

With one VCR the static line will stay, with the other VCR I can almost fix the tracking but then the VCR will tell me to insert a cleaning tape even though the VCR head has been cleaned.

So thanks to your advise I hooked up the TBC-1000, with one VCR I can fix the tracking after the tracking has gone into a roll & then the VCR will show static & it will eventually tell me to insert a cleaning tape, the other VCR is the same & I can't get the tracking fixed.

I use a generic easycap, I believe the problem is probably the tape, it is from around the 90's and is a little dusty.

I was looking at the hauppauge usb live 2 as a replacement, also I think one of my VCR's has a fault somewhere as it has tracking problems with a lot of tapes.

A lot of people recommend using VCR's with s video, mine does not have them & I have no idea if that would make any difference, any suggestions would be very helpful

Thank you

[orsetto]

The ES10 or a DataVideo type of TBC won't usually help reduce tracking noise: its almost entirely a mechanical problem. If the DataVideo indeed somehow helped with one of the VCRs, capture the tape immediately in case this is a temporary fluke.

Stubborn tracking problems will necessitate trying a few different VCRs until you find one that minimizes or eliminates the static. If the tracking junk moves when you adjust the tracking control on the VCR, it isn't caused by the tape being dusty. More likely, the VCR that originally recorded that tape had misaligned heads, so the tape signal does not track well on other VCRs that are normal spec.

This can be really difficult to dial out. Ideally, you'd need the same make/model of VCR, and a technician who could internally mistrack the head alignment to precisely match the tape. Since that is unlikely, all you can do is look for a VCR with a very wide tracking range that could perhaps shift the junk to the extreme frame edges. Sometimes you get lucky, and trying a 180 opposite brand of VCR does the trick (i.e., if the "noisy" VCR is a JVC, try a Panasonic, or vice-versa). I'm not sure of brand availability in Australia, but if you can lay hands on a Mitsubishi HS-448, 449, 748, or 749: these have a wider tracking range than usual (and aren't ancient- last sold new around 2004).

S-video connections are necessary to maximize resolution retrieval from SVHS tapes and other premium analog sources, but they don't help dramatically with plain ordinary VHS tapes. Depending on the specific VCR and attached capture devices, you could see a slight to moderate improvement over using the ordinary composite connection. OTOH, sometimes this backfires, and there have been reports of S-video connections degrading capture quality. You would have to try it out with your setup and see what works best for you.

To obtain a significant boost in PQ from playing a plain VHS tape in an SVHS vcr via S-video connection, you would need a "premium" JVC or Panasonic SVHS model that has built-in TBC+DNR circuits. The vcr's TBC works differently from your ES10 or DataVideo, in conjunction with DNR (digital noise reduction) that cleans and filters color noise and grain from the video straight off the heads before passing it to the line outputs. Here again, say it with me: "you can't tell for sure until you experiment with your own tapes and setup". Some tapes will look more polished and clear captured from such a VCR, others will look very mushy or unnatural.

BTW, I would be concerned that the VCRs keep alerting you to use a cleaning tape: if these tapes are shedding oxide onto the video heads, thats a serious problem. You should capture such tapes in their entirety asap, in whatever quality you can manage, because they could completely fail (or wreck your VCR heads) tomorrow. As you make incremental improvements to your system, do the captures again at each stage, so you maintain copies at the highest level you reached before total tape failure.

Much as we all crave a nice consistent workflow, analog VHS capture remains stubbornly variable.

[TazDave]

Thank you again orsetto. I just connected my older Samsung Winner VCR & after 51 minutes it has finally stabilised using the tbc-1000.

I've taken on board your advise & this will be the last capture I'm doing just in case the tape is shedding oxide.

I'll have a look around for those Mitsubishi VCR's because of their wider tracking range, I did see a HS-U448 from Tennessee but I'll keep searching.

Once again you help and knowledge is highly appreciated.

[lordsmurf]

You don't need to change any hardware in your PC. The DataVideo connects in exactly the same way as your ES-10: in fact you would usually swap the TBC1000 in to replace your ES10, between VCR and EZcap.

It depends on why the ES10 is in the chain.

Presumably you bought the DataVideo because you have a problem the ES10 cannot fix for you. If so, be aware the DataVideo cannot do the "miracle repairs" of the ES10 (such as correct flagging, straighten crooked verticals, reduce jitter/judder, etc). IOW, the ES10 fixes the problems you can see, the DataVideo typically fixes problems you can't see (such as lipsync/dropped frames), although it also corrects the fake/true MacroVision issue that the ES10 can't filter out.

Correct.

Normally you would not want to use the ES10 and DataVideo together in the same hardware chain: depending on the tape, they can overcorrect or conflict with each other.

No. Not correct.
VCR (TBC off) > ES10 > external TBC-1000 > proc amps, detailers, mixers etc > capture card

Then again, others here say they keep them both connected at all times with no drama. I recommend experimenting with each important tape to see which setup gives the best result.

Nothing to experiment with here.

- VCR plays
- ES10 correct tearing/etc -- usually because VCR sucks (non-SVVS), or VCR TBC/DNR buffer/RAM overloading by bad timing
- TBC-1000 corrects signal pre-capture
- other specialty devices do as designed, now working on clean signal
- capture card captures

VCR>DtaVideo>ES10>EZcap

Never. The TBC-1000 would negate the ES10.

VCR>ES10>DataVideo>EZcap

EZcap = EZcrap, feel need to mention that for OP.

Regarding EZcap: if yours is the "real, genuine" EZcap it would be hard to improve on in any significant way without spending a lot of money and/or a lot of time experimenting.

Quite a few sub-$100 look better than a Chinese-made EZcap or Easycap.

The "genuine" EZcap is "good enough" for most people

Only because they're unaware that something better exists. People put up with bad "VHS quality" mostly due to lack of knowledge. The "VHS quality" is a byproduct of mad methodology and crap hardware, not actually a deficit of VHS. VHS looks quite good when properly played and filtered.

finding something better has become increasingly difficult in recent years, because demand for such products has fallen off quite a lot from a decade ago.

Not really. Options still exist, and even works on modern Windows 7 to 10 x64.
The main issues is that the best options are AGP/PCI and require XP.

There are alternatives from brands like Hauppauge, but they're largely similar with minor performance distinctions: these USB dongles are all either "adequate" or "terrible".

A small handful of internal video boards made for desktop PCs were noticeably better, but they've been discontinued for years (and some don't work compatibly beyond Windows XP). Then you get into workflows like fully lossless initial capture, which you then tweak in video processing software, before reducing the humongous files to a more plausible everyday MP4 or MKV, etc. Fine for priceless videos, not a picnic if you mostly have loads of mediocre tapes that aren't of earthshattering importance to you.

Partially true.

- There were many cards from ATI, Hauppauge, Matrox, Canopus, Osprey and others. Not a few.
- Almost all did require XP, and will not work in Vista-10 at all (or without some serious hacking and driver forcing).
- These workflows were not just lossless. It ranges from everything to MEPG (DVD to broadcast specs), to NLE, to DVC, uncompressed/SDI, to said lossless.

MP4 and MKV is not and never was a capture format. You must re-encode to this delivery format, unless you have a $$$$ (4-figure+ priced) broadcaster appliance that does some very complex Faroujda-quality deinterlacing and long-GOP encoding.

The heyday of analog video capture has long since passed. Even then, doing it at the highest level was an esoteric undertaking. Today, its become even more rarefied, to the point if you haven't already been doing it with top gear for 10 years, it is very difficult to know how to pick thru the limited amount of high performance capture devices that are still available (many of them second-hand).

Yep, true.

The EZcap can be bettered, sure, but by how much, and at what cost of effort and money, is a tough question today.

Anything worth doing is worth doing right. All one needs to do is educate himself/herself on what's going on, and get together a budget. This person already has the TBC and ES10, and that's half the cost right these. Keep going. Better VCR, better capture card, and you're in ready to go.

The ES10 or a DataVideo type of TBC won't usually help reduce tracking noise: its almost entirely a mechanical problem. If the DataVideo indeed somehow helped with one of the VCRs, capture the tape immediately in case this is a temporary fluke.

Not just a fluke, fully impossible. Coincidence. The VCR tracks, not anything else.

Stubborn tracking problems will necessitate trying a few different VCRs until you find one that minimizes or eliminates the static. If the tracking junk moves when you adjust the tracking control on the VCR, it isn't caused by the tape being dusty. More likely, the VCR that originally recorded that tape had misaligned heads, so the tape signal does not track well on other VCRs that are normal spec.
This can be really difficult to dial out. Ideally, you'd need the same make/model of VCR, and a technician who could internally mistrack the head alignment to precisely match the tape. Since that is unlikely, all you can do is look for a VCR with a very wide tracking range that could perhaps shift the junk to the extreme frame edges. Sometimes you get lucky, and trying a 180 opposite brand of VCR does the trick (i.e., if the "noisy" VCR is a JVC, try a Panasonic, or vice-versa).

I recently started writing a guide for laymen, on how to mistrack (or correctly tune) a VCR. Not done yet. It's getting to be a bigger problem in recent years, as heads in VCRs are all aging. It's as much a head/aging issue as a tape issue.

S-video connections are necessary to maximize resolution retrieval from SVHS tapes and other premium analog sources, but they don't help dramatically with plain ordinary VHS tapes.

Disagree. It makes a huge difference in quality. The dot-crawl alone is bad enough, but composite has color/chroma errors and other to now contend with. Again, this is why some people have a false idea of what "VHS quality" is.

OTOH, sometimes this backfires, and there have been reports of S-video connections degrading capture quality.

It's really rare. Worth mentioning, but with that caveat: rare (ie, probably not you).

To obtain a significant boost in PQ from playing a plain VHS tape in an SVHS vcr via S-video connection, you would need a "premium" JVC or Panasonic SVHS model that has built-in TBC+DNR circuits. The vcr's TBC works differently from your ES10 or DataVideo, in conjunction with DNR (digital noise reduction) that cleans and filters color noise and grain from the video straight off the heads before passing it to the line outputs. Here again, say it with me: "you can't tell for sure until you experiment with your own tapes and setup". Some tapes will look more polished and clear captured from such a VCR,

Again, remember: cannot use VCR TBC with ES10. Set ES10 aside, use only when needed. It has side effects, adds artifacts to degrade playback quality. Most times, workflow is SVHS VCR with TBC > external TBC > capture card.

others will look very mushy or unnatural.

Not usually.

BTW, I would be concerned that the VCRs keep alerting you to use a cleaning tape:

Me too. Open and inspect the deck visually. (if/when you clean it, DO NOT USE Q-TIPS, CLOTH, PAPER, etc -- only foam or chamois swabs). There are step-by-step instructions for cleaning at digitalFAQ.com.

if these tapes are shedding oxide onto the video heads, thats a serious problem.

^ Heed this. Very, very, very serious. Oxide shedders can ruin heads, kill VCRs.

Much as we all crave a nice consistent workflow, analog VHS capture remains stubbornly variable.

Indeed.

[JVRaines]

if these tapes are shedding oxide onto the video heads, thats a serious problem.

^ Heed this. Very, very, very serious. Oxide shedders can ruin heads, kill VCRs.

How does that work? Friction grinds down the pole pieces?

[orsetto]

As I expected/hoped, LordSmurf turned up to offer his professional take. You are fortunate, TaxDave: LS is quite busy these days and doesn't post to these forums as often as he used to. LS makes his living digitizing VHS, and also runs his own website on the subject (DigitalFaq. a great resource). His standards are very high, with justification based on his work and long experience. LS is like a football coach, for whom "good enough" in never acceptable: he always encourages us to try harder and do better. His technical advice is 100% spot-on.

I come at these questions from a more jaundiced angle: as someone who is exhausted from all the expenses, hurdles and variables that endlessly present themselves. I'm not alone: many of us reach the point where we wonder why and where we're going with our personal archives. Doing it reasonably well is difficult enough, doing it to a very high standard is enough to stress you out completely.

Being more than a little burned out (not to mention bankrupted) by this "hobby", I try to scale my replies to where I think the original poster is coming from. If the person expresses relative contentment with the results they're already getting, and makes it clear they're floating questions about gear like the DataVideo as trial balloons for "will adding this one thing miraculously make my VHS transfers 10x better with no effort" - yeah, I'm gonna stick a pin in that balloon right quick. If you're buying a TBC or $400 used VCR solely because "you heard its important to have" and not because you yourself have noticed a specific problem or lack you need to solve, that device isn't gonna do squat for you.

You can waste a lot of money and a lot of time trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear: experts like LordSmurf can do it, yes, but keep in mind LS has 20+ years daily experience (and a collection of flawless hardware) to draw upon. Things are more complicated today than fourteen years ago (when the bulk of conventional wisdom on VHS digitizing was written). Now more than ever, it is a polarized task: you either jump in with both feet (and arms), committing all your spare time and focus to it in a quest for perfection, or resign yourself to be satisfied with "good enough". There is no middle ground between "good enough" and "great" - theres a big gap that can only be bridged by experience, intuition, study (and in 2018, incredibly good luck with obsolete second-hand hardware). People don't pay LS to do it for them because they're lazy: they're paying for his hard-won expertise.

LS strongly disagrees with my experimentation suggestions. I have no doubt in his experience he has found absolutes, but I and others here have noticed variables. The arrangement of ES10 and TBC1000 should be set in stone, yet sometimes it simply isn't and changing the setup changes the result. Standard VHS tapes played thru S-video connections should always look better, yet for many of us the result is inconsistent (especially if using a low-end SVHS vcr that does not have TBC/DNR circuits). Using the TBC/DNR feature in VCRs equipped with it should always make for nicer cleaner source signals, but in fact this is highly subjective and varies with each tape. One man's "smooth and noiseless" is another man's "mushy" (and the circuits can impart an irritating temporal distortion that some people are very sensitive to). The more processing is involved, the more opportunities for each individual tape to interact differently with that processing. If the standard "always do it this way" method disappoints, change it up: it will either make things better, or prove no better is possible.

[TazDave]

Thank you everybody once again, due to my lack of knowledge I was actually using q tips to clean my vcr's along with printer paper to clean the head, I definitely will be reading the thread over at digitalfaq.

I do remember years ago when I was using xp like everyone else, an akai vcr & a capture card that to my own probably misguided standards made life a lot easier than with today's usb devices where there are so many opinions on what works & what doesn't.

My generic ezycrap as it is loving referred to is rubbish & I do realise I do need to upgrade to something better

I'm not questioning anyone's advice, I'll try the hardware in a chain now just out of curiosity & because I like tinkering, I did think about the fact it would be like two magnets pulling against each other & totally negate what each piece of hardware is trying to achieve .

It would be awesome to have the knowledge and experience everyone is sharing & I enjoy learning but a lot of it goes over my head as it is a hobby, one that can be both enjoyable & frustrating at the same time.

Listening is learning, I highly appreciate everyone taking their valuable time to help and provide feedback

[lordsmurf]

I come at these questions from a more jaundiced angle: as someone who is exhausted from all the expenses, hurdles and variables that endlessly present themselves. I'm not alone: many of us reach the point where we wonder why and where we're going with our personal archives. Doing it reasonably well is difficult enough, doing it to a very high standard is enough to stress you out completely.
Being more than a little burned out (not to mention bankrupted) by this "hobby"

You're not alone. I've been doing VHS at a serious level for 25+ years now. I get burn out.

Some of what you lament about (though far more negative than I do) is very true. Hardware is getting scarcer, repairs costlier.

But on the flip side, filtering and CPU/GPU power is getting almost amazing. I've done stuff in the past 2-3 years that I never thought was possible even a decade ago. And that's what keeps me going. The restoration. The capturing aspect makes me grimace. I have personal projects that are now on v3 of redo, because better is now possible. Not just mildly, but vastly.

"good enough"

This has always been my issue. Too many people don't know what they don't know. So "good enough" may not be good enough, when the person is educated in what it should look like, and then what is possible with restoration (Avisynth, etc). Those cheapo Chinese USB knick-knacks and Best Buy lie to you on what to expect.

Once a person is educated, I'm fine with "good enough". Video is about choice, least-worst workflows/paths. Perfection isn't possible, so at some point there must be a cut-off. Just don't cut off too quickly.

LS strongly disagrees with my experimentation suggestions.

Not all, just some.

should

You have to love that feeling of rewiring/setting up a workflow, sticking in the tape, and then .... WTF is this?

Always a good chat, orsetto.