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  1. Member
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    For the longest time, I thought DVD was 1080. It's 720, isn't it? And Blu-ray is 1080, 4K is 3840. Blu-ray 1080 is high-definition, while 4K is ultra high-definition?

    At home, I went from a large standard-definition projection TV to a 65" 4K with HDR.

    I'm finding that the 4K resolution doesn't make me happy when my favorite movie looks like a soap opera with that creepy smooth frame rate. I was watching It Monday, and the smoothing ruined it for me.

    If it matters, I have an LG 65UJ6300. And I have a Sony UBP-X800 player.

    I'm wondering why the algorithms that address frame rate don't include an option that better replicates the look of a film in theaters, or most every movie I've ever seen on TV. It seems as if manufacturers focus on smoothing, which looks weird, and ignore techniques that have worked for decades. In theaters, films have a darkened frame between every pair of frames actually captured on film. Why don't these magnificent new 4K sets do the same? Aside from turning smoothing off, are there other common settings that take away from a cinematic experience? Does 4K resolution itself take away from the cinematic experience?

    Another thing: I experienced my first purchase of a film that was supposedly Blu-ray, 1986's Labyrith. Clearly, it is one hell of a bad transfer. Supposedly, the "4K" version is much the same, grainy and compressed. Bad transfer cash grabs aside, how in the world do you know if you should buy DVD, Blu-ray, or 4K UHD, without researching each release and reading if the transfer was done well?

    Will Star Wars ever be released in 4K, and if it was, would you even want it?

    Thanks for looking.
    Last edited by RowRowYourBoat; 17th Jan 2018 at 14:36.
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  2. DVD is either 576 or 480 depending on whether you're in PAL land or NTSC. For more details you can click on What Is/DVD at the top of the page.

    Motion smoothing is part of the TV/projector/player, not the media itself. It can be turned off usually within the menu of your device.

    If you like Star Wars, why wouldn't you want it on 4K? Most of the episodes have greater than HD sources.
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    Originally Posted by RowRowYourBoat View Post
    For the longest time, I thought DVD was 1080. It's 720, isn't it? And Blu-ray is 1080, 4K is 3840. Blu-ray 1080 is high-definition, while 4K is ultra high-definition?
    .
    You're mixing up vertical and horizontal resolution.

    DVD is 720 x 480 or 576 (as smrpix stated)
    Blu-Ray is 1920 x 1080
    4K UHD is 3840 x 2160
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    Originally Posted by RowRowYourBoat View Post
    I'm finding that the 4K resolution doesn't make me happy when my favorite movie looks like a soap opera with that creepy smooth frame rate. I was watching It Monday, and the smoothing ruined it for me.

    Another thing: I experienced my first purchase of a film that was supposedly Blu-ray, 1986's Labyrith. Clearly, it is one hell of a bad transfer. Supposedly, the "4K" version is much the same, grainy and compressed. Bad transfer cash grabs aside, how in the world do you know if you should buy DVD, Blu-ray, or 4K UHD, without researching each release and reading if the transfer was done well?
    There should be a Cinema or Movie setting on your set that will turn off the unnecessary processing of the signal.

    As for knowing which releases are the best or at least better than a previous version, there's no sure way to know until you see it with you own eyes. Even a glowing review may not meet your personal tastes, especially in regards to (film) grain which is sometimes a part of the artistic vision of the director. Find websites and/or reviewers that match your personal preferences. I really like dvdbeaver.com because they don't always state "This release is the best", leaving the choice up to the buyer.

    That said, the term "Remastered" is usually a good sign. Otherwise I always assume the release is an upscaled version of a previous release. Also, look at the distributor's other releases. Distributors like Criterion and Steelbook strive for quality over quantity and usually offer the best releases.

    I almost never buy any disc immediately upon release. I don't know how common this is with Hollywood releases, but Asian movies are often released as a DVD first, followed by single layer (25gb) Blu-Ray, then a double layer (50gb) version and sometimes a multi -disc Special Edition or UHD.

    Finally, don't limit yourself to domestic releases only. Some Japanese and UK releases of Hollywood releases are better than those released in the U.S. Again, sites like dvdbeaver.com (which often compares releases) and blu-ray.com are good reference sites.
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    Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
    Blu-Ray is 1920 x 1080
    No.
    1920x1080 (NTSC, PAL) 16:9
    1440x1080 (NTSC, PAL) 16:9
    1280x720 (NTSC, PAL) 16:9
    720x480 (NTSC), 720x576 (PAL) 4:3 & 16:9
    not counting new Ultra HD

    https://www.videohelp.com/hd#tech
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    Similarly, DVD and UHDBD also have resolution options that include less than the max. But for shorthand, it's usually much easier to mention the max ones since that's what most folks are needing to refer to.

    Btw, most cinemas - both analog and digital - project in manners known as double-flash or triple-flash. This means that for every frame in the 24fps media presented you get 2 or 3 repeat images each with 50% dwell.
    So, 48Hz or 72Hz.
    Former TV types could not simultaneously handle these rates AND those of NTSC or PAL-related video (their core application). Now, it is possible to have TVs that can do whole & fractional versions of (multipled) cinema rates as well as video rates, but those are premium or commercial/industrial models.

    Scott
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  7. The Home Theater Review site has an article on the 'soap opera effect' and how to get rid of it for various brands of televisions. For LG it's called TruMotion:

    https://hometheaterreview.com/what-is-soap-opera-effect-and-how-to-make-it-go-away/
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    Originally Posted by RowRowYourBoat View Post
    In theaters, films have a darkened frame between every pair of frames actually captured on film.
    That's not true of projected motion picture film.
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  9. There is definitely some confusion in the part of this thread having to do with how movies are projected.

    When theaters projected movies using film, the projector used a shutter to close off (block) the image during the time the next frame of film was pulled down into the projector gate. During this time, the screen was completely black. Since film was shown at 24 fps, this meant that the audience "saw" 24 perfectly black moments per second. While the eye and brain cannot actually discern these black flashes as individual flashes, it does "see" them as flicker. A 24 Hz flicker is not only noticeable, it actually gives people headaches. So, in the earliest days of film projection in theaters, the companies making the projectors added additional blades to the projector so that not only did the screen go black to hide the frame being pulled down (no way around that; it has to be done), but also to increase the flicker rate to, typically, 72 Hz. While this made the picture appear a little darker, it eliminated the headaches and nausea for almost everyone.

    However, in the past decade, film has all but disappeared from theaters and most are now using digital projectors. Since the whole shutter thing was only needed to hide the film pulldown, there is absolutely no reason to carry that artifact forward into the modern era. Therefore, in pretty much any theater you go to today, there is no shutter and no time during which the screen is black.

    As for what modern TVs can handle, you don't need a high-end TV to handle pretty much any frame rate or type of video. TVs and computer monitors are now almost the same thing and, just as you can play any frame rate on your computer, you can also do this with your TV. If I attach my computer to my 7-year-old TV, it will display anything I can see on my computer, including 12 fps films that I've captured; PAL video (I live in the USA where we only have NTSC); etc. It won't play 60 fps and obviously it cannot play resolutions that are higher than its native resolution (e.g., 4K), but it plays all the subsets.

    As for 4K and the soap opera effect, the two have nothing to do with each other. The soap opera effect is causes by a "feature" that is in most better TVs. It uses motion estimation to interpolate new frames between existing frames, thus taking 24 fps film material and making it 60 fps progressive (that is a typical conversion). I think it looks horrible and was one of the first things I changed when I got my TV set. Just go through the menus and you'll find a setting that will completely turn it off, which is what I recommend you do.

    And yes, in North America, DVDs are 720x480 resolution (there are others, but that is the most common). It is sometimes referred to as "480i" where the "i" refers to the fact that it is always interlaced. You can store HD video on a "data" DVD, but not on a DVD that has been authored to play in a standard "set top" DVD player. HD video is commonly either 1280x720 (a.k.a. 720p) or 1920x1080. The latter can either be interlaced ("1080i") or progressive ("1080p").
    Last edited by johnmeyer; 18th Jan 2018 at 11:22. Reason: added two paragraphs about soap opera effect and resolution, in order to answer OP
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    Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
    As for 4K and the soap opera effect, the two have nothing to do with each other. The soap opera effect is causes by a "feature" that is in most better TVs. It uses motion estimation to interpolate new frames between existing frames, thus taking 24 fps film material and making it 60 fps progressive (that is a typical conversion). I think it looks horrible and was one of the first things I changed when I got my TV set. Just go through the menus and you'll find a setting that will completely turn it off, which is what I recommend you do.
    Why do you think it looks horrible? I'm not disagreeing! I hate it! Articulating why I hate it has been a challenge, as I've clearly so much to learn about modern entertainment delivery.

    I assumed 4K resolution made the soap opera effect worse, or added its own similar effect by nature of the higher resolution. Purely speculation born of ignorance.

    My LG TV is a pain in that TruMotion will reset when changing media, input, or picture modes. The problem being that once it is turned off, TruMotion has a NASTY habit of turning back on!

    I just bought my first 4K player, and discovered my new TV has modes I did not see before, but become available with varying media. There are a couple of "Professional" picture modes that actually have TruMotion disabled by default. But, as I said, TruMotion tends to reset itself in other modes. I have even observed it rest during a program—very disconcerting.

    That said, I had been excited to pick up my all-time favorite films in 4K, only to find few exist, and most that are available are not actually 4K. It seems I am well-served with the cheaper Blu-ray releases in many cases. For example, the 30th Anniversary release of Labyrinth (my kid's favorite, not mine!) is a horrible transfer in both Blu-ray and 4K formats. Another, generic Blu-ray release I found is of far superior quality.

    It seems that movies made before Blu-ray are hit-or-miss, and that we have to rely on reviewers to learn of deficiencies before dropping money on bad transfers. That is problematic when reviewers are less than forthcoming about problems. Movies missing sound tracks and special effects? Movies full of visual artifacts? There's a lot of trash out there. I even found one web site devoted to identifying real and fake 4K movies!

    I am hoping 4K becomes popular enough that studios put effort into a new generation of quality transfers. I want Crossroads in 4K. Yes, Crossroads. I love that movie!

    Back to my first post: No one has any idea if Star Wars will be remastered for 4K? Without Lucas' added effects? I can dream, can't I?
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    Originally Posted by RowRowYourBoat View Post
    I assumed 4K resolution made the soap opera effect worse, or added its own similar effect by nature of the higher resolution. Purely speculation born of ignorance.

    My LG TV is a pain in that TruMotion will reset when changing media, input, or picture modes. The problem being that once it is turned off, TruMotion has a NASTY habit of turning back on!

    I just bought my first 4K player, and discovered my new TV has modes I did not see before, but become available with varying media. There are a couple of "Professional" picture modes that actually have TruMotion disabled by default. But, as I said, TruMotion tends to reset itself in other modes. I have even observed it rest during a program—very disconcerting.
    - If you haven't already done so, read the manual thoroughly. The days of just turning on the TV and everything "just works" are gone.
    - Sounds like you still have Demo Mode on, from the LG site:

    For customers running a newer webOS Smart TV model for which DEMO mode has been activated, accidentally or not, disabling feature is done by following these steps:

    Click Settings button on remote controller
    Click More Settings icon at the bottom right of the screen
    Access the GENERAL menu
    Scroll down to the very last option from the list
    Change settings from Store Mode to Home Mode

    - Visit avsforums.com . You're more likely to find someone that owns or is more familiar with your particular model.


    That said, I had been excited to pick up my all-time favorite films in 4K, only to find few exist, and most that are available are not actually 4K. It seems I am well-served with the cheaper Blu-ray releases in many cases. For example, the 30th Anniversary release of Labyrinth (my kid's favorite, not mine!) is a horrible transfer in both Blu-ray and 4K formats. Another, generic Blu-ray release I found is of far superior quality.

    It seems that movies made before Blu-ray are hit-or-miss, and that we have to rely on reviewers to learn of deficiencies before dropping money on bad transfers. That is problematic when reviewers are less than forthcoming about problems. Movies missing sound tracks and special effects? Movies full of visual artifacts? There's a lot of trash out there. I even found one web site devoted to identifying real and fake 4K movies!
    - What bothers you about the 4K version of Laybrinth? Is it the film grain? As blu-ray.com states:

    "Grain is complimentary and light, constant and visible, and the image serves as a reminder of film's inherent beauty over today's digital photography." - Blu-ray version

    "Grain does seem a bit thicker on the UHD. Colors are more nuanced. They're not punchier, but the palette enjoys a clearly greater range of subtle shadings that give the movie a fuller look, but at the same time one that's slightly less aggressive." - 4k version

    As I stated before, grain is a inherent (and sometimes artistic) part of films and as video resolution gets closer (though we're still far off even with 8K) to capturing the full nuance of film, grain will be before more evident. As I've stated before, reviews may not always match your personal preferences. While these review acknowledge the presence of film grain, they rate these new transfers highly because of better color and detail.

    4K is more than just a higher resolution picture. With HDR we're getting closer (but again, still a long way off) to capturing the full color capability of film. There are specialists that have to determine how to best optimize the image for the home screen. Again, you may not like the choices they made, but the goal of a good transfer (like apparently Labyrinth is) is to get as close to the original intended image as possible. And sometimes what we were used to seeing is far off from the original.

    BTW, while you're going through your manual and settings, check your HDR settings. Again, best to check avsforums.com for advice.

    When I got my first HDTV and tweaked the settings to get the most accurate picture for movies, I was disappointed because it didn't "jump out" at me like on my old CRT. I soon realized and understood that the overly sharp, overly saturated picture I was used to wasn't what the director intended.


    I am hoping 4K becomes popular enough that studios put effort into a new generation of quality transfers. I want Crossroads in 4K. Yes, Crossroads. I love that movie!

    Back to my first post: No one has any idea if Star Wars will be remastered for 4K? Without Lucas' added effects? I can dream, can't I?
    It all comes back to profit. Doing a proper film remaster costs money and the majority of the public doesn't appreciate or care about picture quality. They buy into the promise that 4K is automatically better and blindly accept that.

    As for Star Wars, unless Disney and George Lucas do a complete reversal of their statements that a non-specialized release will never be done, the answer is still no.
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    Just had a thought. Check the manual and settings on your player also. The default settings may not be optimal for your display.
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    The TV did not come with a paper manual. There's no electronic manual online, either. Apparently, it's built into the TV, itself, and is less informative than I'd like.

    Maybe what I saw on my Labyrinth, 30th Aniversary Blu-ray was not grain? I saw little black dots all over the place. Lots and lots of dots, the way we would see "snow" in a picture when the reception was poor, back in the day. Owners of the 4K version described the same. I also found the colors to be overly saturated, as if the set was in Vivid mode (it was not). I bought another Blu-ray release of Labyrinth, and it did not have the black dots or saturated colors. It looked great, although the syncing of dialogue seemed a tad off.
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    Originally Posted by RowRowYourBoat View Post
    The TV did not come with a paper manual. There's no electronic manual online, either.
    Yes, there is. http://www.lg.com/us/support-product/lg-65UJ6300#manuals
    Several guides in multliple formats, even for control with a smart phone.
    Last edited by LMotlow; 20th Jan 2018 at 17:27.
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    Originally Posted by RowRowYourBoat View Post
    Maybe what I saw on my Labyrinth, 30th Aniversary Blu-ray was not grain? I saw little black dots all over the place. Lots and lots of dots, the way we would see "snow" in a picture when the reception was poor, back in the day. Owners of the 4K version described the same. I also found the colors to be overly saturated, as if the set was in Vivid mode (it was not). I bought another Blu-ray release of Labyrinth, and it did not have the black dots or saturated colors. It looked great, although the syncing of dialogue seemed a tad off.
    Are you talking about this:
    Image
    [Attachment 44451 - Click to enlarge]
    Source: blu-ray.com

    and this:

    Image
    [Attachment 44452 - Click to enlarge]
    Source: blu-ray.com

    when you zoom in?

    I may be wrong since I'm not bothered by film grain and it's hard to tell what the actual video is like from stills, but I can't see what's to bad about it.
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