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  1. Member
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    Hello!

    I am a filmmaker and I need the highest possible quality Blu-Ray disc authored using my MacPro (2009 / 10.10.5).
    I have a professional master that was delivered to me from my Post House a couple of years back... it is a 125GB ProRes 5.1/2.0 file.
    I have a DL Blu-Ray burner installed in my machine and I have checked out a plethora of forums, video tutorial etc... trying to figure out the best workflow for this but I keep in running into hurdles and/or the workflows are for copying discs that have already been authored and need to be remuxed or from non pro source material.

    I am most concerned about video quality and universal playback however it would be great to make custom menus as well.
    One of the more promising workflows I have found online so far is to ENCODE with Compressor, Make Menus with Encore and then Burn with Toast.
    My hurdle with this is I can't figure out how to encode a DL BD with compressor... the default setting is for 24GB file and if possible I would like the quality to be better than that.

    Any advice, pointers or links to articles or solutions would be much appreciated.
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  2. Explorer Case's Avatar
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    duration ื bitrate = file size
    I’m missing the duration of the movie in your description. There is a maximum bitrate in the BD specification: 48 Mbit/s max total, with 40 Mbit/s max for the video. Compressor limits that bit further to ensure a playable disc: 35 Mbit/s max. Taking VBR into account, the average bitrate should not be higher than say 30 Mbit/s. If you do push the bitrate to that, you have room for ~108 minutes of video (on SL), assuming DD audio. For a lesser duration, DL discs have no use, as using more bitrate might make the disc unplayable.
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    Originally Posted by Case View Post
    duration ื bitrate = file size
    I’m missing the duration of the movie in your description. There is a maximum bitrate in the BD specification: 48 Mbit/s max total, with 40 Mbit/s max for the video. Compressor limits that bit further to ensure a playable disc: 35 Mbit/s max. Taking VBR into account, the average bitrate should not be higher than say 30 Mbit/s. If you do push the bitrate to that, you have room for ~108 minutes of video (on SL), assuming DD audio. For a lesser duration, DL discs have no use, as using more bitrate might make the disc unplayable.
    Sorry I did neglect the length it is a 92 min film with both Stereo and 5.1 audio files all in one ProRes file.
    If I am understanding your reply then a Single Layer compression is as good as the quality will ever get with a universally compatible Blu-Ray Disc?
    Is that correct?

    Assuming it is would you recommend the workflow mentioned in my first post... Compressor Encode --> Encore Build --> Toast Burn?
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  4. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Case View Post
    duration ื bitrate = file size
    ^ This.

    And if not given enough bitrate, it looks terrible.
    Both DVD and BD have a maximum spec for bitrate, and a de facto minimum.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Originally Posted by Case View Post
    duration ื bitrate = file size
    ^ This.

    And if not given enough bitrate, it looks terrible.
    Both DVD and BD have a maximum spec for bitrate, and a de facto minimum.
    So if I ENCODED at the 35Mbs that Compressor allows for would that look as good as I am going to get?
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  6. Dinosaur Supervisor KarMa's Avatar
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    x264 can be used to encode for Bluray compatibility. With x264 generally considered the best H.264 encoder out there.

    http://www.x264bluray.com/home/1080i-p

    Could also use CRF instead of 2 pass.
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  7. Explorer Case's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Terraform View Post
    So if I ENCODED at the 35Mbs that Compressor allows for would that look as good as I am going to get?
    As far as bitrate goes, yes. Compressor has more quality tweaks than just bitrate, though (several settings on the right, when video setting “H.264 for Blu-ray” is selected).

    Originally Posted by Terraform View Post
    would you recommend the workflow mentioned in my first post... Compressor Encode --> Encore Build --> Toast Burn?
    That would work. Encore has nice menu building routines from layered Photoshop files, giving you much more creative freedom than templates from the other two.
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    Originally Posted by KarMa View Post
    x264 can be used to encode for Bluray compatibility. With x264 generally considered the best H.264 encoder out there.

    http://www.x264bluray.com/home/1080i-p

    Could also use CRF instead of 2 pass.
    I am playing with Handbrake (x264) now and again am having a hard time finding some good documentation for MY WORKFLOW needs.
    tons and tons of stuff out there on how to rip other people Blu-Rays and most of the documentation is skewed towards as small of a file size as possible.
    Obviously that is not a concern of mine as I have the digital master and want to make as HQ Hard Copies as possible.

    I doing a test run now but it would appear that it is going to output a .mp4 (where Compressor outputted a .246 file) and I don't know if it will also encode / output a .ac3 for the audio but so far I don't see evidence of that (it may come at the end).

    I guess my real question is with the Handbrake and x264 workflow do I need to do anything specific to bring it into to Encore then to burn it in Toast?
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  9. Ugh, I feel sorry for you. Since you are a pro filmmaker you should be aware that authoring a BD with professional quality menus/intros and accompanying audio is a LOT of work and for the record is never done in the authoring program, but in an NLE and often with the help of a compositing program like After Effects. The authoring program, in this case Encore, merely provides the tools to knit all your assets together into the BD structure.

    So to answer your real question, you will need to demux your Prores master so you can encode the video and audio into separate streams prior to import into Encore. x264 is the best option for the video although I would ditch Handbrake and just use the cli. For the audio you can probably just use AME or PP, since Encore only comes bundled with those programs. And while, yes, quality is a goal for BD, the over-arching goal is making sure your assets are BD compliant. You will know this if the assets don't get flagged as needing to be encoded after import into Encore. I don't really care if you use Compressor/Handbrake/x264 cli/AME or what have you, but you are doing something wrong if you let Encore encode your assets.

    Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of members on this forum who author their own BDMV with custom menus. But whatever you do, please don't use the canned templates in Encore. Those just scream amateur/hack.

    Good luck!
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    Originally Posted by SameSelf View Post
    I would ditch Handbrake and just use the cli. For the audio you can probably just use AME or PP, since Encore only comes bundled with those programs.
    Thanks for the feedback.
    Any suggestions as to where I could find a CLI recipe for my needs?
    There must be a resource that has something "pre-baked" for HQ Blu-Ray... after all Criterion uses it for their releases right?
    Anyway I will play around a bit and also look into using AE for decent menu.
    Thanks!
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  11. Originally Posted by Terraform View Post
    Any suggestions as to where I could find a CLI recipe for my needs?
    KarMa already posted the link:
    http://www.x264bluray.com/
    https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154533

    There isn't much more to know.
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  12. Glad I was able to help some. I just realized you are on a Mac. I am not certain if you can run x264 from a command window. Mac users would need to weigh in on that one. Anyway, encoding your assets should be the easy part of your project. At least, it is on a PC. And for the record, I work with Prores certified assets all the time on a PC. I just don't do any video work on Apple products.

    I am not sure what Criterion uses. For the studio released BD that I own, when I watch the intro/menus critically for ideas, it becomes plainly obvious to anyone with composting experience that just about every studio uses a compositing program with a heavy dose of plug ins. As a hobbyist, I am not interested in dropping $100 every time someone like videocopilots come out with a gotta-have-it plug in which means I am creating vfx manually (i.e. more work). But as a pro filmmaker, if you have the budget/access to these tools, then creating a HQ BD should be infinitely easier. But I still think "pre-baked" might be hard to find because to me, creating quality intros/menus is as much an art as the filmmaking process. But if you can find an AE plug in/template that matches the mood/vision of you film that you can drop clips of the film into easily, well, then I am jealous.

    Also, be aware that modern BD releases use BD-J (Java based) menus which I don't think Encore supports. That is an even higher level BD authoring, that I have yet to touch vs BDMV which is what we are discussing.

    EDIT: one little pro tip, I find it much easier to create all the elements of a menu in AE (e.g. even the Play, Scene Selection, etc.) then the only thing that I have to "animate" in the authoring program is a little icon of some sort that shows up next to Play All/Scene Selection. It is much easier to control fly-ins/overlay/opacities of menu elements in the compositing program than in the authoring program. So about 98% of my intro/menus exist in AE. Hopefully that makes sense.
    Last edited by SameSelf; 22nd Jan 2018 at 22:37.
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  13. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SameSelf View Post
    is never done in the authoring program, but in an NLE and often with the help of a compositing program like After Effects. The authoring program, in this case Encore, merely provides the tools to knit all your assets together into the BD structure.
    Correct.

    Don't forget audio! The music/sound is done in something like Sound Forge (usually before integration into the NLE video work).

    I learned to author DVDs in the days before templates and cheesy programs that offered to do things for you. You create assets in NLEs/etc, and the the authoring program is merely for assembly, instructions on play order, etc.
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