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  1. Member
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    I live in Brazil, and the access we have to high quality DVD media is more than limited.

    As I found these in Amazon that we can find here too, I wonder if it's any good:

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005F2YPH2/ref=psdc_10967881_t1_B00DT6OWFG

    Pity I will have to live with DVD media until big sized SSDs are available at affordable prices. Even so, for me DVDs have been much more reliable than magnetic HDDs.

    Of course that now and then I find a DVD in my collection which can't be read, but most seem to work fine.

    OTOS recently I had a 3Tb HDD that stopped reading. No early warning from CrystalDiskInfo, which I had checked with a few days before.

    Now I will have to open that HDD to re-position the magnetic heads for a final transfer to another HDD. I have no other option.

    I use to think that keeping the HDDs cool and working 24/7 was better than turning the PC on and off every day, and apparently that seemed to prolong the HDDs life, but now I think that maybe an external NAS box holding several detachable HDDs might be better.

    I am open to suggestions.

    Thanks!
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  2. Explorer Case's Avatar
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    Seems fine: “Double layer DVD writable” discs here have the recommendation of Verbatim “+R” discs with Metal AZO dye. [1]

    The primary cause of hard drive failures is hardware overheating. Inadequate ventilation and cooling in and around your computer hardware can cause severe damage to the equipment. Overworked hardware with little or no downtime can wreak havoc on a system.
    Last edited by Case; 16th Jan 2018 at 11:23.
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    Overheating and ventilation has been my major concern on my latest computer assemblies.

    As I do not buy complete packages, I have been able to select the best options for my application and for my city temps. Living in a tropical city (Rio de Janeiro), I have been able to refine my solutions. Case, fans and ventilation currents are the elements to get there.

    And I think I did: my HDDs temps never exceed 36 degrees C, and are usually lower than that. Same thing for the rest of the setup, except for the CPU, which is also under control.

    I controlled this temp question some time ago, but some of my HDDs still lived short lives. It's when I decided to leave the computer on all the time, avoiding switch on/off cycles, which I found out were more deadly than being on 24/7.

    External HDDs, except when powered through USB, have a weak side on their supplies. HDDs that died shortly after using an external adapter made me realize that. Presently I only use an external HDD adapter if powered from the PC supply.

    Now I think I need an external HDD disk box, like a NAS.

    I was wrong on my showing that Verbatim type, as the ad I saw was from an importer. So the DVD media problem remains unsolved.

    As it is, shipping and Brazilian custom expenses more than double the original price. Will look somewhere else .
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  4. Explorer Case's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by carlmart View Post
    The DVD media problem remains unsolved. As it is, shipping and Brazilian custom expenses more than double the original price. Will look somewhere else.
    Verbatim themselves lists four official dealers. The first two have sites that are unreachable for me, the latter two do not carry Verbatim DVD+R DL in their online shop. I expect the distributors to supply parallel to other stores. Good luck in your search.
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    This may sound like a joke (to those who know whom I'm speaking about), but you might try contacting gamemanico for info about where he gets his Verbatim discs from. He's still active at digitalfaq.com.

    As for HDDs, a dehumidifier may help, maybe in an outer enclosure for your PC / NAS or in a closet. At least one study of large Data Centers has found humidity a greater factor of HDD failure than heat alone https://www.networkworld.com/article/3049428/computers/humidity-not-heat-is-a-hard-dri...st-threat.html

    Unless SSD technology changes drastically, they're not a viable option for long-term storage. Tests have shown that without power, SSDs can lose data in as little a two years in a constant 72 degree Fahrenheit environment, with lifespan decreasing as average temperature rises. In addition, unlike HDDs, the data is unrecoverable.

    I hate to keep hammering on this point, but consistent backups are the highest priority. I've resigned myself to the fact that HDDs die and backup anything of importance immediately to another HDD.
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    lingyi, interesting ideas.

    Will look into the humidity question, even if humidity is not really a problem in Rio de Janeiro. Heat might be , if you don't keep an eye on it, as I do.

    On my plan ideas, the SSDs would never be out of power, so that wouldn't be an issue. The idea is just that at least they do not wear off by running, as HDDs do.

    Which would be the time with HDDs until they need backup? Would power down them with Windows help? I wish there was a slow turn on time for them, that might diminish the power on impact that seems to affect life-span.
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    Can the Verbatim Mkm-003-000 DVDs made in Singapore be trusted?
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  8. Explorer Case's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by carlmart View Post
    Can the Verbatim Mkm-003-000 DVDs made in Singapore be trusted?
    Verbatim (MCM) had good discs made in Taiwan, Singapore, India, UAE. Probably not equal, but all good quality. (As long as you stay away from “Life Series” or “Value Series” discs.)
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    Anecdotally, I used to backup everything on Verbatim branded DVD-R's. These were the Taiyo-Yuden manufactured ones, thought the be the "good ones". Now, 10-15 years later the majority of those Verbatim discs are unreadable with CRC errors. I lost a lot of videos that I thought I was archiving for the long haul. Conversely, the cheapo Memorex and Dynex branded discs still work. What can you do?
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    Originally Posted by carlmart View Post
    lingyi, interesting ideas.
    Which would be the time with HDDs until they need backup? Would power down them with Windows help? I wish there was a slow turn on time for them, that might diminish the power on impact that seems to affect life-span.
    "Which would be the time with HDDs until they need backup?"

    When and how often you do backups are up to you. I live by the idea that any of my HDDs can fail at any time. The longer it takes to do something, e.g. creating a worksheet or ripping multiple movies, the quicker I'll back it up so I don't have to do it again if something goes wrong.

    I've posted this before, but I think it bears repeating. Several months ago, I transferred ~6tb of videos to a new 8tb external. Shortly after the transfer was done, I thought to myself, "What I drop this external drive?" and sure enough, I turned and accidentally knocked the drive off the desk! The drive died and fortunately I was able to get a new one since it was still under warranty.

    What could have been weeks or months of work of ripping discs turned into nothing but the cost of electricity used and time (~24 hours) lost as I restarted the backup to another HDD.

    "Would power down them with Windows help?"

    Power up places stress on a HDD. If powering down during inactivity increases HDD life, Green drives would be the most long lived.

    "I wish there was a slow turn on time for them, that might diminish the power on impact that seems to affect life-span."

    Many (most?) motherboards (through the BIOS) allow you to delay the startup of non-boot HDDs. This potentially helps with with the power surge and draw on the PSU on system startup.


    Another factor in HDD reliability is using a good PSU. I've had HDDs fail immediately when attached to a bad PSU. If your PC (or NAS) starts to act odd (especially if disappear or fail to appear on startup), keep the PSU in mind as you do your troubleshooting.

    If you're planning on using a NAS, keep power up / power down cycles to to a minimum and use NAS or Enterprise HDDs that are meant to run 24/7.
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    Originally Posted by SaurusX View Post
    Anecdotally, I used to backup everything on Verbatim branded DVD-R's. These were the Taiyo-Yuden manufactured ones, thought the be the "good ones". Now, 10-15 years later the majority of those Verbatim discs are unreadable with CRC errors. I lost a lot of videos that I thought I was archiving for the long haul. Conversely, the cheapo Memorex and Dynex branded discs still work. What can you do?
    It's more likely that you've having reader/laser issues, not disc issues.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    It's more likely that you've having reader/laser issues, not disc issues.
    Or most likely I know exactly what I’m talking about and I used multiple drives to salvage what I could. But then I guess you don’t really know.
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  13. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Verbatim-branded TY were the pearl coated discs only sold in Europe.
    You're in USA.
    Please explain.

    I don't think you're remembering things correctly.
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    Originally Posted by carlmart View Post
    Can the Verbatim Mkm-003-000 DVDs made in Singapore be trusted?
    According to the DVD Media guide available here: https://www.videohelp.com/dvdmedia?dvdmediasearch=&dvdmediadvdridsearch=mkm&type=12&si...+or+List+Media and digitalfaq.com here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-media.htm, these are good to excellent DL discs. You can check other media codes through these two links.

    Be sure to buy from a reputable seller even though these haven't been reported to be counterfeited.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Verbatim-branded TY were the pearl coated discs only sold in Europe.
    You're in USA.
    Please explain.

    I don't think you're remembering things correctly.
    Unfortunately, those discs were tossed in the garbage after pulling what I could from them. Do you own stock in Verbatim? This is very important to you. I'll reiterate and double down on my claim, though. The Verbatim-branded discs were crap. To my recollection they were TY stamped, but I could be mistaken. Doesn't matter really.
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  16. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SaurusX View Post
    Do you own stock in Verbatim? This is very important to you.
    Ah, yes. The old "you must own / work for" reply.

    but I could be mistaken
    I'm very certain that you are.

    More likely, you had Verbatim-branded VALUE LINE discs, which were actually manufactured by CMC. Now those discs were very infamous for low quality. Those are not the legendary Mitsubishi-made MKM/MCC media. I've not seen VALUE LINE in a while, though I'm sure some are still sold. B&M budget stores like Walmart and Best Buy carried those, while online retailers like Amazon and Meritline sold the better MCC/MKM discs.

    Another reason that discussing media codes matters, not brands.
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    @lordsmurf

    Yes! 2018 going to be great with you back, you lovable blue grouch! ~_^
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    One thing that surprised on my last trip to the USA was that you could not find DVD-R DL discs anywhere, Fry or Best Buy for instance.

    They seem be to sold by mail only. Any particular reason for that?

    About the power supply for the HDDs, I only trust the ones on my computer. I believe external supplies for 3.5" HDDs can be deadly for them.

    Are NAS power supplies reliable? Which are NAS and Enterprise HDDs? How do I identify them?
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    Originally Posted by carlmart View Post
    One thing that surprised on my last trip to the USA was that you could not find DVD-R DL discs anywhere, Fry or Best Buy for instance.

    They seem be to sold by mail only. Any particular reason for that?
    We are burning fewer discs than we used to, and many of us who still use optical media don't want to spend the money for quality media.

    Now that large HDDs, USB sticks, program downloads, streaming video services and Android boxes running Kodi have become common, many find they have no need for optical drives or optical media at all.
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  20. Member Bernix's Avatar
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    Yes, USB and external HDD are really cheap, but also easily corrupted. When improperly disconnect, or drop down bit faster... I believe that BD or DVD are not so easily destructed. There on this site are plenty of question how to rescue such data from HDD and not everybody ask of course. To backup such data and keep them twice stored cost 2x more.

    Bernix
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    Originally Posted by Bernix View Post
    Yes, USB and external HDD are really cheap, but also easily corrupted. When improperly disconnect, or drop down bit faster... I believe that BD or DVD are not so easily destructed. There on this site are plenty of question how to rescue such data from HDD and not everybody ask of course. To backup such data and keep them twice stored cost 2x more.

    Bernix
    Still, some people prefer 2x HDDs because 2x large capacity HDDs take up less space than a large number of burned optical discs. I still use plenty of optical media but I can understand why many prefer to have fewer possessions to store, organize and clean.
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    For me the question is reliability, and from the little I know only SSDs promise to deliver that.

    Until now I haven't heard of any complaints about them, and since they came around it's been plenty of time.

    Am I wrong?

    Still don't know what has happened with the HD DVDs on my collection. But from those I have played until now, only some formatted as DVDs have failed. Let's hope they just stay put until I make up my mind on where to transfer them too, if I have to.
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    Originally Posted by carlmart View Post
    About the power supply for the HDDs, I only trust the ones on my computer. I believe external supplies for 3.5" HDDs can be deadly for them.

    Are NAS power supplies reliable? Which are NAS and Enterprise HDDs? How do I identify them?
    Compare an external HDD power supply (external brick or built into the case) to a PC power supply. Heat and power regulation for the external drive power supply are major issues. Another common failure point is the USB connection, constant plugging and unplugging can cause power surges and loosening of components. There's also the cost factor. For some reason, several years ago low price competition caused external HDDs to be cheaper than their internal equivalents, despite sometimes using very high quality internal drives*, leading to using cheaper components for the USB interface and PSU. You CAN get good external cases with good external PSUs (e.g. LaCie and Fantom), but they can cost as much a complete cheap external drive!

    *At least one cloud storage facility, Backblaze bought and used (removing them from the case) 8tb Seagate drives because they were cheaper than the bulk discount that could get on identical internal drives.


    As for NAS PSU reliabity, you get what you pay for. Buy or build a cheap NAS and you get a low quality PSU. Keep it on 24/7 as it's designed to be for the greatest reliability. I don't have a NAS, but have been using several Mediasonic Probox(s) as external drive enclosures for years, some left on 24/7 and (*knock wood*) the only thing I've had to do is replace the fan on the oldest one.


    NAS and Enterprise drives usually are clearly marketed as separate from the manufacturer's desktop line, sometimes marked as a separate class (e.g. WD Red (NAS) and Gold (Enterprise) or Seagate's Irowolf). They're almost always priced higher than a desktop drive, usually listed in the middle to high end of drives on a website.
    Last edited by lingyi; 19th Jan 2018 at 22:10.
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    Originally Posted by carlmart View Post
    For me the question is reliability, and from the little I know only SSDs promise to deliver that.

    Until now I haven't heard of any complaints about them, and since they came around it's been plenty of time.

    Am I wrong?.
    One major issue with SSDs, is that when they fail, there's virtually zero chance of data recovery. There's no external PCB or platters to swap out, everything is on one completely integrated PCB.

    I have currently five or six SSDs and have lost two in the past 5-6 years. One I spilled soda on while it was running and while it ran for several months after a through cleaning with alcohol, it suddenly died completely. It's replacement was working when I swapped it out for a larger drive and I used it for testing over the years, until suddenly one day, even though it showed up in Windows, I couldn't read or write anything to it. There may be some utility to reset it, but I just threw it out.

    A third drive that I use as a cloned backup of my main PC's OS was left unplugged for several months (I used to keep it powered up in the system) and when I tried to use it, it would boot to Windows, but would constantly freeze. I may have just had a bad clone, but my faith and trust in SSDs for unpowered backup is gone. In my new system, I'm installing two PCI SSDs so my backup image will always be kept powered up.
    Last edited by lingyi; 19th Jan 2018 at 22:12.
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  25. Mr. Computer Geek dannyboy48888's Avatar
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    I've learned while some media is better than others they may have issues. Now I set aside 5-10% for multipar or dvddisaster. Saved me a few times especially on DL media. Gave up on bluray for now as most of the discs I made had major issues in 2-3 years
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    Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
    @lordsmurf
    Yes! 2018 going to be great with you back, you lovable blue grouch! ~_^
    I'll try to make more internet rounds this year.

    Originally Posted by carlmart View Post
    you could not find DVD-R DL discs anywhere
    You must mean DVD+R DL, because DVD-R DL was never really sold outside of Japan for a short time 10 years ago.

    I believe external supplies for 3.5" HDDs can be deadly for them.
    Quality enclosure / external drive + UPS = no issues

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    We are burning fewer discs than we used to
    Now that large HDDs, USB sticks, program downloads, streaming video services and Android boxes running Kodi have become common, many find they have no need for optical drives or optical media at all.
    That's exactly it. My burning has drastically gone down due to large HDDs, flash drives, broadband speeds, and media players. All of my discs are in boxes in a closet, and everything is on HDDs that either stream or connect to WDTV/Kodi boxes. Less clutters, easier to organize and locate titles. The DVD/BD is just the backup, not the main viewed media.

    who still use optical media don't want to spend the money for quality media.
    I disagree. Anybody that knows about disc quality will buy quality media, and only the clueless masses will buy the cheapest discs. Why? Because we all know what happens: bad burns / coasters -- ie waste of time and funds. It's negative economics. The price of multiple bad discs is actually more expensive than a good disc.

    Originally Posted by dannyboy48888 View Post
    Gave up on bluray for now as most of the discs I made had major issues in 2-3 years
    It's not archival. It's essentially an upside-down CD, with a thin polycarb + lacquer coat on bottom. DVD was a sandwich of equal side polycarbs. Multi layer also a big issue, single is archival.
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  27. Mr. Computer Geek dannyboy48888's Avatar
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    Indeed, that's why for my keep it safe stuff I only use single layer now.
    if all else fails read the manual
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    who still use optical media don't want to spend the money for quality media.
    I disagree. Anybody that knows about disc quality will buy quality media, and only the clueless masses will buy the cheapest discs. Why? Because we all know what happens: bad burns / coasters -- ie waste of time and funds. It's negative economics. The price of multiple bad discs is actually more expensive than a good disc.
    Regarding my answer to carlmart's question, by "we" I meant residents of the USA in general, not VideoHelp members in the USA. What the clueless masses want (low price) has far more influence on what mass-market retailers carry than what the relative few who have a clue want (quality).
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    I wonder to what extent the disc companies did this to themselves. The public wanted price over quality and they gave the public what they wanted. But, with so many failures (as pointed out, costs more in the long term), they stopped buying discs altogether. Verbatim was the last holdout, but they were forced by market economics to bring out the awful Life Series and now people (not in the know) are saying "Verbatim sucks!".

    I wonder if we'll see the rise of a premium DVD line (other than the marketing ploy M-Disc) or it's too late.

    I see a similar trend happening with external HDDs with people saying "WD or Seagate sucks because my external drive failed"! No, you just got sucked into odd marketing ploy that under values HDDs. I find it hard to believe that the profit margin on HDDs is so great that companies can afford to put the same internal drives that sell almost for twice as much alone in their external cases. If the margins are that high, I smell some kind of price fixing in the HDD industry. Remember the Thailand flood of 2011 that spiked HDD prices for two years?

    *Oops, I see some Men in Black in the hallway, better shutup now! <grin>*
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  30. Member Bernix's Avatar
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    Just made comparison of 2TB of bluray (8x10 pack of 25GB) vs 2TB external HDD from brands i can believe in their quality. Bluray discs are 65% of cheapest 2TB external 3,5'' HDD.
    I don't trust some brands from personal experience, and also prefer 3,5'' discs.

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