Is a s-vhs recorder a must for capturing?

[GovertdeKat]

My current set-up for capturing is:

Panasonic Super Drive NV-HD630 => Composite => Panasonic DMR-ES10 => s-video => usb video grabber (Magix).

What if I replace my current VCR with a newer S-VHS VCR. Could that improve the quality? Or doesn't it matter?

Many thanks

[JVRaines]

An s-video output will normally be superior to composite. We have heard that some VCRs, however, have inferior s-video circuitry and actually provide a better composite picture. In neither case will the image become lovely and crystal clear like a typical digital image.

[DB83]

Someone with better knowledge of video circuitry might advise better but since your final output to the capture device is s-video I question whether any gain would be made by having an input through the dvd-recorder also as s-video. That, of course, assumes that the dvd-recorder does genuinely split the composite signal to s-video.

[JVRaines]

C is a subcarrier in the composite signal and inevitably interacts with Y. Filtering them back to Y/C (s-video) does not yield perfect results. So you gain quality if you never combine them in the first place.

[LMotlow]

Higher end SVHS players from JVC and Panasonic have far more robust tracking mechanisms in addition to powerful line tbc built-in and some decent but important noise reduction circuits (which often can be turned on/off) -- and those that don't have noise reduction at least don't create the noisy, ugly playback issues that cheaper players do.

For those using composite input into pass-thru such as Panny ES10's and Es15's, those units do have s-video output converters with pretty good y/c comb filters as well. But that's still not as clean as a good VCR that outputs s-video properly to begin with.

[dellsam34]

There are some JVC S-VHS reasonably priced VCR's on eBay if you keep an eye, Just be careful "in working condition" doesn't always mean fully working.

[lingyi]

I apologize if I inadvertently disrespect anyone here, but I what lordsmurf (a respected member who now rarely posts here now, but is always at digitalfaq.com) has to say on videotape capturing as the best (and to the point) around.

"Use s-video. S-video is "separated video", which keeps the luma and chroma on separate channels. This is how VHS is stored, and the main reason it looks the best. There's no changes internally to the signal.

SCART is really no different from RGB, VGA or component. It's more complicated, of course, but this is the simple answer. It's both not needed and not desired.

When capturing any consumer analog format -- VHS, S-VHS, Betamax, Hi8, Video8, etc -- always use s-video.


Read more: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/1567-vcr-buying-guide-7.html#ixzz546qyaDqf"

[JVRaines]

"Use s-video. S-video is 'separated video', which keeps the luma and chroma on separate channels. This is how VHS is stored, and the main reason it looks the best. There's no changes internally to the signal."

To be precise, the color subcarrier on is recorded on tape at 629 kHz (VHS) or 688 kHz (Betamax), which keeps it out of the luminance modulation range. It is upconverted to 3.58 MHz before being sent out the s-video connector.

[GovertdeKat]

So it would be more useful to use a good S-VHS VCR. I see most of them are quite expensive, but I found a JVC HR-S8850EU for a good price. Should that be good enough? I am already using my DMR-ES10 as TBC.

[LMotlow]

That depends. Is the the seller offering a gurantee that it's in good owrking condition?
A well regarded thread on pro and prosumer VCRs for capture, NTSC & PAL, with notes and faq: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/1567-vcr-buying-guide.html

[GovertdeKat]

Yes, it is in a good condition. Thanks for the article. It doesn’t show in the JVC list sadly.

[LMotlow]

Yes, it is in a good condition. Thanks for the article. It doesn’t show in the JVC list sadly.

That's because there's nothing special about it. Has no TBC or noise reduction. Also, if your tapes are recorded at slower 6-hour or 8-hour speeds, JVC is a poor choice. JVC never fully supported slower recording. They are pretty much SP-only machines. They do load and play SLP/EP tapes, but not very well.

[JVRaines]

So it would be more useful to use a good S-VHS VCR. I see most of them are quite expensive, but I found a JVC HR-S8850EU for a good price. Should that be good enough? I am already using my DMR-ES10 as TBC.

The Panasonic has you covered for signal processing. The most important thing with the VCR is that it be in good mechanical condition and alignment.

[lordsmurf]

This poster is PAL, not NTSC, so remember to keep it in context.
- SP or LP are usually all that was possible, not SLP/EP, therefore JVC and Panasonic will usually work equally well
- PAL does have some advantaged over NTSC in terms of color storage ... but s-video still ideal. You don't want composite, and SCART usually isn't an option for capture cards.

BTW, even if SCART and option, S-VHS deck still processes/plays tapes much better than low-end VHS VCR.

NV-HD is consumer VHS VCR, not better/pro NV-HS S-VHS series

When ES10 in a chain, VCR TBC must be off. Only use ES10 when needed, as it does have side effects. It's not transparent.

The cheap Magix card is probably losing some quality. They seem to have randomly rebadged a lot of cheap crap under the Magix brand.
This is what cheap cards do: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/4599-exactly-wrong-easycap.html#post23105

[LMotlow]

Generally good advice, but...

This poster is PAL, not NTSC, so remember to keep it in context.
- SP or LP are usually all that was possible, not SLP/EP, therefore JVC and Panasonic will usually work equally well

That's not true. Don't mislead the owner. LP looks like crap with a JVC, whether it's PAL or NTSC. Your own forum posted examples in the past, and I clearly recall how upset the owner was with the bad blurry JVC playback of his slow tapes.

The cheap Magix card is probably losing some quality. They seem to have randomly rebadged a lot of cheap crap under the Magix brand.
This is what cheap cards do: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/4599-exactly-wrong-easycap.html#post23105

It's depressing how many people keep falling for the same bad gear again and again. There ought to be a way to put them out of the capture card business.

[GovertdeKat]

Any advice on a good capture card? The ATI 600 isn’t an option for me. I found the Hauppage 610 usb mentioned in this list: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/3200-best-ati-wonder.html. That might be an option, but is it really a significant better usb grabber than my Maxic one?

[LMotlow]

I found the Hauppage 610 usb mentioned in this list: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/3200-best-ati-wonder.html. That might be an option, but is it really a significant better usb grabber than my Maxic one?

Yes. The similar Diamond Multimedia VC500 is another possibility and gets more popular every year..

[GovertdeKat]

Great, thanks! I couldn’t get the Diamond, so I went for the Hauppauge.

[dellsam34]

]That's not true. Don't mislead the owner. LP looks like crap with a JVC, whether it's PAL or NTSC. Your own forum posted examples in the past, and I clearly recall how upset the owner was with the bad blurry JVC playback of his slow tapes.

LP is crap to begin with, However my JVC HR-S7600AM plays LP tapes better than any VCR I've owned before, As a matter fact I had to recapture the LP VHS-C tapes that I still have because the results looked better with the JVC. Maybe the model I have has useful features like tape formulation signal compensation and extra 2 heads for LP tracks with different azimuth angle than the SP ones.

[LMotlow]

I went through two JVC 7600's and strongly disagree. They made LP crap look like soft-focus LP crap, destroyed a lot of detail, and smeared motion. Always. That's why I stopped using those players.

[lordsmurf]

I went through two JVC 7600's and strongly disagree. They made LP crap look like soft-focus LP crap, destroyed a lot of detail, and smeared motion. Always. That's why I stopped using those players.

How soft and sharp an image is depends on the tape itself.

Example:
I pulled out a personal tape from the late 80s just yesterday. In the JVC, it was slightly soft, but the image was very clean. Hard to argue it. The Panasonic was "sharper", but only some of the image edges. It looked odd, mix of over-sharp and not (even with sharpness slider tuned all the way down). Furthermore, the Panasonic image was REALLY noisy. The audio also had a whine not on the JVC.

Sometimes JVC is sharper.
Sometimes JVC and Panasonic are transparent to one another.
Sometimes JVC plays it and the Panasonic barfs.

In general:
- JVC plays better quality.
- Panasonic plays stronger (removes more errors), best on EP, sometimes slightly sharper*.

In general. < I cannot stress that enough.

After playing many thousands of VHS tapes, that's my analysis. Most people have limited experience with their own few tapes, and for whatever reason their tapes may have reacted badly to JVC (or Panasonic, or even both). But that's an outlier, not the norm.

Also note the 7600 is excellent, recommended even, but not the very best JVC has to offer. So there's also that. Every model of JVC does tend to react slightly different in the sharpness and timing/wiggle department. Sometimes even exact units within a model series.

* Remember: Panasonics are oversharp by default, and show more noise. So the perception of "sharper" can be false!