AVI Files Smaller Than WMV Files

[tutorpros]

Hi Everyone,

I create videos on Videopad.

When I export them they come out as WMV files.
I don't care why it does that.

However, a few of them came out as AVI files.
I don't care why that happened, even though I never changed anything on the export menu.

However, I noticed that some longer AVI videos had smaller file sizes than some WMV files.

I'm using Dropbox to store my videos, and I'm out of space, so I was thinking about converting all of the WMV's to AVI's, but before I did it, I wanted to see if the quality would be sacrificed, so I researched it on the web.

Every article that I read, said that AVI files were larger than WMV's, but WMV had better resolution. It also said that WMV's could be compressed, or are automatically compresses or something, I don't really care.

So I did my own experiment: I exported the same video into AVI and WMV files. I didn't change anything on the export menu, and nothing else on the menu changed on its own when I switched export file formats.

Well, the resulting AVI file was half the size as the WMV file. The resolution difference was negligible to me.

Can anyone explain to me how this is occurring, before I start switching all my WMV's into AVI's.

Thanks in advance,
Jack

[smrpix]

File size = bitrate * running time.

The way to adjust your results is to pay attention to all those things you claim not to care about.

[Bernix]

File size = bitrate * running time.

Yes.
And post mediainfo of your wmv and avi file. Different codecs needs different bitrate to achieve "good" quality. Without knowing codecs, you are using nobody will tells you anything. In that files, also can be different audio codecs, with different bitrate.

[pandy]

Every article that I read, said that AVI files were larger than WMV's, but WMV had better resolution. It also said that WMV's could be compressed, or are automatically compresses or something, I don't really care.

Can anyone explain to me how this is occurring, before I start switching all my WMV's into AVI's.

Those articles are probably written by people without clue about modern video compression, assume articles are old and perhaps part of Microsoft marketing strategy few years ago, nowadays Microsoft abandoned wmv similarly to many other Microsoft technologies and products.
BTW AVI is also old and not recommended nowadays container (as it suffer from many limitations).

[tutorpros]

Okay, I looked at the export menus more closely...

For avi, it shows frame rate 29.97 (TV NTSC)
Encoder options
Encoding settings
video compressor H264 (Native)
Quality (rate factor) 23.0 on scale from 10 (hq) - 51 (lq) constant frame rate box is unchecked.
Sound compression MP3 (native)
Sound format 44100 Hz, 128 kbps, stereo

For wmv, it shows frame rate 29.97 (TV NTSC)
constant frame rate box is unchecked
Encoder options
Encoding settings
Video compressor Windows Media Video 9
Video bit rate 8192 (this Stat was not shown in the avi settings)
Video quality 50 on a scale from 1 - 100
Audio
Sound compressor Windows Media Audio 9.2
Sound format 128 kbps, 44kHz, stereo CBR

For this particular video, the resulting avi file size is 27.0 MB
WMV is 59.6 MB

That's everything I could find.

If this helps explain why the avi file is smaller than the wmv, I'd like to know why.

Thanks

[pandy]

If this helps explain why the avi file is smaller than the wmv, I'd like to know why.

WMV9 vs H.264 - H.264 is constantly developed and improved when WMV9 is abandoned many years ago and no longer developed.

[tutorpros]

If you're saying that this specific avi H264 is more advanced than this specific wmv W9, and that those articles were not necessarily talking about those two specific avi and wmv formats (specs?), then that's good enough for me.

Thanks

[Bernix]

Avi is not suggested container for h264. If you can convert to mp4 or mkv, it should be better. But probably you have vfw x264 codec, but still not best. Best way for x264 is ordinary x264 muxed in mp4/mkv with AAC audio.

Bernix

[tutorpros]

I would love to use MP4, but it's not an option for me because I have to pay for Videopad to create that extension. I've been using these few avi's without issue, so unless I hear otherwise, I'll convert my WMV'S to AVI.
Or, I'll just open another Dropbox account and get the extra storage that way.

[pandy]

If you're saying that this specific avi H264 is more advanced than this specific wmv W9, and that those articles were not necessarily talking about those two specific avi and wmv formats (specs?), then that's good enough for me.

Perhaps WMV9 is not significantly different in approach to video compression than H.264 however side to technical set of tools there is another set of compression tools - psycho-visual tools responsible for guiding technical encoder how to perform lossy conversion - those psycho-visual tools are focus on providing highest quality at lowest bitrate and H.264 was constantly improving on this area where wmv9 at some point was no longer actively developed.
This is main reason why H.264 is able provide similar visual quality and at the same time lower bitrate.
In other words - wmv9 lacks on areas where H.264 nowadays is hard to beat even by newer codecs (such as H.265) - consider this as my private opinion valid for today - in past i was not highly enthusiastic about H.264 and i preferred older MPEG-2 where higher visual quality was delivered at a cost of higher bitrate, nowadays H.264 is superior on every aspect of video encoding when compared to MPEG-2 - this level was reached by many years of hard work people standing behind x264 (most popular H.264 encoder implementation). Video (and audio) codecs need some time to reach maturity and wmv9 had never time to reach own maturity.

[Bernix]

I would love to use MP4, but it's not an option for me because I have to pay for Videopad to create that extension.

If I were you I consider to use other free software to have h264 in proper container. If you only need to keep it on your PC and play it there, probably no problem, but problem can occur playing it on stand alone players or edit file in other program. There is too many free software that include proper codecs and container.
Bernix

[tutorpros]

These last 2 responses were ones that I understood the clearest. Either you are dumbing it down for me, or I am getting smarter, but I lean toward the former.

Pandy, you are more or less challenging the accuracy of those articles that I read (which was the cause of this problem to begin with.) If I never read those articles, I would have just done the conversions and that's that. And the further details you wrote, make me think that I should put very little stock in those articles. I believe that you know your stuff, but I also realize that it is your opinion, so I won't hold it against you if something goes wrong lol.

Bernix, you offer other suggestions to help me reach my goal as safely as possible. And your points are well taken. I will only play these videos through the dropbox app on my phone (with a 3rd party media player app), or mirror my pc to my TV through an HDMI? cable. I only plan to do further edits through Videopad.

You've put my thoughts at ease, so I thank you.

[tutorpros]

One thing, Bernix...
What does a 'proper container for H264' mean?

[manono]

One thing, Bernix...
What does a 'proper container for H264' mean?

He already told you - either MP4 or MKV, and not AVI.

Avi is not suggested container for h264. If you can convert to mp4 or mkv, it should be better. But probably you have vfw x264 codec, but still not best. Best way for x264 is ordinary x264 muxed in mp4/mkv with AAC audio.

Bernix

[tutorpros]

I found a converter that I can put h263p or x264 into an MP4 or MKV container.
Will I achieve my goal with one of those combos?
Also, what's a good video bitrate for x264 and h263?

Actually, before you answer that...
I was just thinking about what my question should have been from the beginning.
From my WMV files (with the codecs, etc) that I illustrated above, is there a way to decrease the file size, using a different format, but keep the clarity, give or take?
I've always thought that the answer was yes, in my specific scenario, but if the answer is that it's impossible, then I'll put this issue to bed.

[_Al_]

Not sure if anyone can tell you what bitrate is right. It depends on video content, resolution.

Do not convert video twice. Meaning video from VideoPad's AVI to MP4.
You can just change container AVI to MP4 without re-compression. Use mkvmerge (to get MKV) or MP4Box (to get MP4). But to that just because videoeditor would not export into MP4 is weird. But still better than having H.264 in AVI container.

Do not encode into h263. Old, not sure, it was used as phone video format once or streaming. Check this post #5 for example, what codec is most expected in what container. Non problematic playback should be priority.

I'd just get videoeditor that can export into MP4 directly, maybe you need full version (not that expensive at all) if you do this very often. Tutorials? Or other software (like Magix Vegas).

H264 is a codec, but x264 is one of many encoders, free and very good, that encodes into h264.

[tutorpros]

Will do.
Btw...Using AVC, I converted a wmv W9 8000 bitrate video into AVI x264 4000 bitrate video, and the file sizes came out the same, with slightly lower resolution with the AVI.
So...perhaps I can't get smaller file sizes with equivalent resolution.

Thanks

[pandy]

IMHO you should focus on CRF not on bitrate - bitrate is important when you must deal with some limitations (like bandwidth or storage) - CRF provide constant quality which is more important than bitrate.
You can export your project and compress it in different tool than video editor or you can use simply different video editor - there is few of them for free.

[jagabo]

Btw...Using AVC, I converted a wmv W9 8000 bitrate video into AVI x264 4000 bitrate video, and the file sizes came out the same

No you made a mistake somewhere. Because:

file size = bitrate * running time

Plus a little for container overhead (about 1 percent for most containers, 5 percent for transport streams). And bitrate in this context is the average bitrate of all streams in the file (there may be multiple video, audio, subtitles, etc.). If you have one video stream and one audio stream: half the video bitrate should have given you about half the file size (audio is usually much smaller than the video).

[tutorpros]

I was agreeing with you, I think.
The wmv bitrate was 8000 and the Avi was 4000.
That would explain why the avi file was smaller, correct?

[Bernix]

Hi,
about bitrate you are right. Maybe you can post Mediainfo text form file of your avi video. Maybe we can help you with better settings. And know what is real codec, that you are using.
But good Idea is export lossless from your program, and compress it in another program. That give you great benefit of h264 (x264) codec.

Edit:btw you never mentioned your bitrate but most probably kbps

Bernix

[manono]

Using AVC, I converted a wmv W9 8000 bitrate video into AVI x264 4000 bitrate video, and the file sizes came out the same

The wmv bitrate was 8000 and the Avi was 4000. That would explain why the avi file was smaller, correct?

Make up your mind. If you're going to ask questions and hope to get help, you at least should get your facts straight. As Bernix mentioned, MediaInfo is a good source of information about videos.

[tutorpros]

They are the same facts, manono.
The people who are being helpful, understand that.

Your replies have been hostile.
If you can't comprehend that there are people like me, who don't know as much as others, thus are asking for enlightenment, then you don't understand the concept of help forums.

If you don't like the way the thread is progressing, then either stop the thread from continuing (If you have the power to do so), or stay out of it.

[manono]

Your replies have been hostile.

Nonsense. You have responsibilities of your own when asking for help. One is to remember (or go back and reread) what's been written, rather than asking the same thing more than once and wasting people's time when the answer has already been given. Another is to present the facts clearly and not to contradict yourself. And when you fail your responsibilities, you should expect to be taken to task for it. No one is getting paid for helping out around here. The easier you make the job for us, the quicker your questions will be answered.

And another responsibility you have is to provide information when requested. So, where's the MediaInfo text file on your two videos? Or would you rather just waste some more time instead?

They are the same facts, manono.

Alternative facts, maybe?

Yes, this reply is somewhat hostile, but you had it coming.

[tutorpros]

I downloaded the mediainfo, portable X64 and command line X64 (I could not understand the explanation when I researched the difference between them.)

They were zip files, and when I opened them and clicked on the exe. file, I got error messages saying that I should update them and/or cannot open file.

Perhaps you'd like to walk me through how to use mediainfo, because I want to give you as much information as I can; I just lack the knowledge to do it.

[Bernix]

Hi,
try extract your portable version in some place you want. Then it should be possible to run it. There is possibility to add it to context menu. But when you have it extracted, try drag and drop your avi file to mediainfo.exe file. Then choose from top menu View and here text, so you can copy paste info here. Original settings of Mediainfo is I think sheet, and there is not much information about file, without modifying it. So for purpose here is Text form more useful.
Bernix

[tutorpros]

I'll give it a shot tomorrow, when my mind is rested.

[tutorpros]

Well, I don't believe it...but I think I was able to get the media info stuff.

This is for the avi...

General
Complete name : C:\Users\Owner.DESKTOP-G7T6LL1\Downloads\nuno.avi
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
File size : 27.1 MiB
Duration : 1 min 32 s
Overall bit rate : 2 470 kb/s

Video
ID : 0
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L3
Format settings : CABAC / 3 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, RefFrames : 3 frames
Codec ID : H264
Duration : 1 min 31 s
Bit rate : 2 323 kb/s
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.084
Stream size : 25.5 MiB (94%)
Writing library : x264 core 142 r2455 021c0dc
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-4 / threads=2 / lookahead_threads=1 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=0 / rc=crf / mbtree=0 / crf=23.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=4 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / vbv_maxrate=12500 / vbv_bufsize=12500 / crf_max=0.0 / nal_hrd=none / filler=0 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00

Audio
ID : 1
Format : MPEG Audio
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 3
Format settings : Joint stereo / MS Stereo
Codec ID : 55
Codec ID/Hint : MP3
Duration : 1 min 32 s
Source duration : 1 min 32 s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 128 kb/s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 44.1 kHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 1.40 MiB (5%)
Alignment : Split accross interleaves
Interleave, duration : 26 ms (0.78 video frame)
Writing library : LAME3.97

And this is the wmv...

General
Complete name : C:\Users\Owner.DESKTOP-G7T6LL1\Videos\Nuno Bettencourt Flight Of The Wounded Bumblebee 720.wmv
Format : Windows Media
File size : 59.6 MiB
Duration : 1 min 31 s
Overall bit rate mode : Constant
Overall bit rate : 5 438 kb/s
Maximum Overall bit rate : 8 385 kb/s
Encoded date : UTC 2017-11-19 05:33:59.461

Video
ID : 1
Format : VC-1
Format profile : MP@HL
Codec ID : WMV3
Codec ID/Info : Windows Media Video 9
Codec ID/Hint : WMV3
Description of the codec : Windows Media Video 9 - Professional
Duration : 1 min 31 s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 8 192 kb/s
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 29.970 (29970/1000) FPS
Bit depth : 32 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.297
Stream size : 89.8 MiB
Language : English (United States)

Audio
ID : 2
Format : WMA
Format version : Version 2
Codec ID : 161
Codec ID/Info : Windows Media Audio
Description of the codec : Windows Media Audio 9.2 - 128 kbps, 44 kHz, stereo 1-pass CBR
Duration : 1 min 31 s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 128 kb/s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 44.1 kHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Stream size : 1.40 MiB (2%)
Language : English (United States)

[Bernix]

Hi,
at first look I noticed that wmv bithdepth is 32 or 96??? is it ?possible? meanwhile x264 is just 24. That is first look. Also bitrate of x264 isn't half but almost 1/4. Don't worry about bithdepth, I think 24 is usual and hardly noticed, and most monitors is using it. If you can set ref frames to 8 it should be even better and also me method to umh, will improve quality in terms of size and quality IMHO. But encoding will last bit longer. That is first fast overlook.

[_Al_]

I guess good news, Videopad uses x264 library to encode H264 (unfortunately it puts it into AVI container , x264vfw) AND it uses CRF, in your case it is set to CRF 23, you can find that information in Mediainfo reading:

.....mbtree=0 / crf=23.0 / qcomp=0.60 /.....

that is quality encoding, not bitrate encoding, which means if quality is not good for you, change that setting to lower number. That would cause quality to improve but the trade of is videosize would end up higher. So,
1) look if you can find that setting for CRF while exporting
2) or if there is a chance to choose MP4 container instead of that avi
it might be chance you do not succeed because of limitation of free version
3)what is your original video, 29.970 fps progressive as well? Because if it is interlaced and not progressive (check mediainfo for original) Videopad also deinterlaces video

and again I'd forget about wmv