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    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    I know I won't magically get HD quality from a laserdisc even if capturing in HD. But I know with capturing via DV is limiting.
    JVRaines' suggestion is not a DV device. Nobody suggested that you should capture Laserdisc using a DV capture device.

    If you want to process the signal so you can keep using the Intensity Shuttle, look for a used Panasonic DMR ES-10 DVD recorder or Panasonic DMR ES-15 DVD recorder on eBay to use as a pass-through and capture using the Intensity Shuttle's S-Video connection. (The Laserdisc player and DVD recorder would be connected via composite.) Those two DVD recorders have a good 3D comb filter and a frame-synchronizer/line TBC. See http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/5383-dvd-recorder-pass.html
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 27th Nov 2017 at 10:52. Reason: clarity
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    Originally Posted by SHS View Post
    Well then you could look in to getting a DVDO iScan VP50 Pro from what I read on AVSForum that they are very good and now are cheap on ebay or there always the Crystallio II Scaler this brand maybe be very hard to get hold of.
    I have a Lumagen HDQ. Haven't had time to figure out how it works. But it's supposed to have a pretty good 3D comb filter. I couldn't find a Crystallio II 3800. I have the chance to buy a Lumagen 2144 which I hear is much better than the 3800.

    These top of the line scalers do not have Legacy outputs so that's where my dilemmas lay. Remember I'm not viewing this on a tv, only transferring.
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    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    Originally Posted by SHS View Post
    Well then you could look in to getting a DVDO iScan VP50 Pro from what I read on AVSForum that they are very good and now are cheap on ebay or there always the Crystallio II Scaler this brand maybe be very hard to get hold of.
    I have a Lumagen HDQ. Haven't had time to figure out how it works. But it's supposed to have a pretty good 3D comb filter. I couldn't find a Crystallio II 3800. I have the chance to buy a Lumagen 2144 which I hear is much better than the 3800.

    These top of the line scalers do not have Legacy outputs so that's where my dilemmas lay. Remember I'm not viewing this on a tv, only transferring.
    I know you want clean it up as much possible in order to get a solid signal transferring
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    I know I won't magically get HD quality from a laserdisc even if capturing in HD. But I know with capturing via DV is limiting.
    JVRaines' suggestion is not a DV device. Nobody suggested that you should capture Laserdisc using a DV capture device.

    If you want to process the signal so you can keep using the Intensity Shuttle, look for a used Panasonic DMR ES-10 DVD recorder or Panasonic DMR ES-15 DVD recorder on eBay to use as a pass-through and capture using the Intensity Shuttle's S-Video connection. (The Laserdisc player and DVD recorder would be connected via composite.) Those two DVD recorders have a good 3D comb filter and a frame-synchronizer/line TBC. See http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/5383-dvd-recorder-pass.html
    Wouldn't an analog pci card still capture in DV?

    The Shuttle does have Component-in, as well as hdmi-in. That's why I'd really like to capture via hdmi-in from a processor OR possibly that 260 card with built in 3D comb filter and bypass the processor al together.

    I admit it feels like I'm missing something. There's info that I can't seem to comprehend.

    I just didn't want to buy another expensive processor only to have the capture unit (external box or pci) not reconize the signal.....like my Shuttle is doing when using the hdmi input from my Lumagen HDQ.
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  5. Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    Wouldn't an analog pci card still capture in DV?
    No. Capture devices like the Hauppauge USB 2 or Diamond VC500 capture uncomrpessed YUV 4;2:2 video. You can choose to compress that on the fly if you like with any of a number of lossless or lossy codecs (including, but not limited to DV).
    Last edited by jagabo; 27th Nov 2017 at 12:58.
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    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    Wouldn't an analog pci card still capture in DV?
    A PCI or PCI-e analog capture device like the Osprey 260e, which allows the use of a software encoder, would permit capturing using a DV codec, but that is not the only choice. With the right capture software, you could use a lossless codec like huffyuv, or UTVideo. (DV is not lossless.)

    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    The Shuttle does have Component-in, as well as hdmi-in. That's why I'd really like to capture via hdmi-in from a processor OR possibly that 260 card with built in 3D comb filter and bypass the processor al together.
    If you want to detelecine, you should capture at 480i. S-Video would allow you to do that. 480i component video output is possible with the DVD recorders that I suggested, and they should be significantly less expensive than a scaler/processor. However, I don't know if the Intensity Shuttle supports 480i capture from a component video source. Some devices can't capture 480i video from a component video source, or HDMI, for that matter.

    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    I admit it feels like I'm missing something. There's info that I can't seem to comprehend.
    In that case, you should be asking more questions.

    [Edit]Note that the Osprey 260e like many other pro cards uses proprietary break-out cables to connect with the video and audio outputs from other devices. Make sure your card comes with those if you buy it used. It may not be easy or cheap to buy the cables separately.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 27th Nov 2017 at 12:54.
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    [/QUOTE] If you want to detelecine, you should capture at 480i. S-Video would allow you to do that. [/QUOTE]

    Capture at 480i because that's what the laserdisc outputs correct? But everywhere I read says to use the composite out, not s-video.
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  8. Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    If you want to detelecine, you should capture at 480i. S-Video would allow you to do that.
    Capture at 480i because that's what the laserdisc outputs correct? But everywhere I read says to use the composite out, not s-video.
    I believe he meant that in the context of using a DVD recorder's pass through to clean up the time base. Use a composite cable to connect the VHS deck to the DVD recorder, s-video from the DVD recorder to the capture device.
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    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    Capture at 480i because that's what the laserdisc outputs correct? But everywhere I read says to use the composite out, not s-video.
    Yes, capturing the output from a Laserdisc player is done using composite because their S-video connections (if there is one) is usually worse quality since the luma and chroma separation isn't good on such old devices. Good comb filters weren't available.

    If you are using something with a 3D comb filter in between the Laserdisc player and the capture device to process the composite signal from the Laserdisc player, then you could capture from S-video-out from the processing device. The luma and chroma separation will be good because of the 3D comb filter. Using composite video out from the processing device would negate the effect of the 3D comb filter. Composite video is always going to produce dot-crawl noise.

    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    I believe he meant that in the context of using a DVD recorder's pass through to clean up the time base. Use a composite cable to connect the VHS deck to the DVD recorder, s-video from the DVD recorder to the capture device.
    Yes. It will clean up the time base too, regardless of the outgoing analog video connection used.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 27th Nov 2017 at 13:47. Reason: clarity
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    [QUOTE= If you are using something with a 3D comb filter in between the Laserdisc player and the capture device to process the composite signal from the Laserdisc player, then you could capture from S-video-out from the processing device. The luma and chroma separation will be good because of the 3D comb filter. Using composite video out from the processing device would negate the effect of the 3D comb filter. Composite video is always going to produce dot-crawl noise. [/QUOTE]

    Since I already have a processor (Lumagen HDQ) which has a dvi-out, shouldn't I use that vs. s-video out from the processor?

    Do processors fix both the 3D comb filter issue + dot crawl?
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    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    Since I already have a processor (Lumagen HDQ) which has a dvi-out, shouldn't I use that vs. s-video out from the processor?
    You can use DVI on the Lumagen HDQ (assuming the Shuttle captures 480i from HDMI), but don't upscale. You want to capture 480i to be able to detelecine. Detelecining will improve picture quality more than simply deinterlacing would, and you need to do it before upscaling. (You already know my thoughts on upscaling.)

    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    Do processors fix both the 3D comb filter issue + dot crawl?
    The purpose of a comb filter is to reduce dot-crawl noise. 3D comb filters are more effective at this than 2D comb filters. Dot crawl is a side effect of composite video combining luma and chroma in a chrominance signal, instead of providing them as separate signals.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 27th Nov 2017 at 15:41.
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    [QUOTE=usually_quiet;2502997]
    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    Since I already have a processor (Lumagen HDQ) which has a dvi-out, shouldn't I use that vs. s-video out from the processor?
    You can use DVI on the Lumagen HDQ (assuming the Shuttle captures 480i from HDMI), but don't upscale. You want to capture 480i to be able to detelecine. Detelecining will improve picture quality more than simply deinterlacing would, and you need to do it before upscaling. (You already know my thoughts on upscaling.)

    So the end goal rather I use a pci card that has a built in 3D comb filter, or a processor with the 3D filter into the Shuttle (or another capture device) is capture at 480i? wow that's totally not what I expected.

    And since I'm capturing at 480i, it doesn't have to be DV video?

    So IVTC first, then change from Interlace to Progressive....say 720P? Is outputting to 1280x720P considered up-scaling?
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  13. Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    And since I'm capturing at 480i, it doesn't have to be DV video?
    No. How many times do you have to be told this?

    [QUOTE=clashradio;2503011]So IVTC first, then change from Interlace to Progressive/quote]
    IVTC will result in progressive frames at the same size as the source.

    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    Is outputting to 1280x720P considered up-scaling?
    You're increasing the frame height from 480 lines to 720 lines. Increasing the frame size is the definition of upscaling.
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    [QUOTE=jagabo;2503012]
    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    And since I'm capturing at 480i, it doesn't have to be DV video?
    No. How many times do you have to be told this?

    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    So IVTC first, then change from Interlace to Progressive/quote]
    IVTC will result in progressive frames at the same size as the source.

    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    Is outputting to 1280x720P considered up-scaling?
    You're increasing the frame height from 480 lines to 720 lines. Increasing the frame size is the definition of upscaling.
    All of this is overwhelming, and I'm a bit of a slow learner I admit. When I don't understand something I usually have to be told more than once, or explained a different way I'm sorry. But I really appreciate everyone's help.

    At this point I'm not sure if the Shuttle will accept 480i via hdmi from the HDQ (my main computer is down at the moment). The few tests I did before my hard drive failed, the Shuttle wouldn't output anything when using the HDQ into the Shuttle via hdmi. But the HDQ does have bnc Component-out, and the Shuttle has Component-in.
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    [QUOTE=usually_quiet You can use DVI on the Lumagen HDQ (assuming the Shuttle captures 480i from HDMI), but don't upscale. You want to capture 480i to be able to detelecine. [/QUOTE]

    One thing I'm still little confused about is: when you run into a processor, I thought one of it's functions is to convert to Progressive?
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    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet
    You can use DVI on the Lumagen HDQ (assuming the Shuttle captures 480i from HDMI), but don't upscale. You want to capture 480i to be able to detelecine.
    One thing I'm still little confused about is: when you run into a processor, I thought one of it's functions is to convert to Progressive?
    I don't know what output resolutions the Lumagen HDQ is able to provide. I do know that doing a simple conversion from interlaced video to progressive, especially via older hardware, won't provide quality that is as good as detelecining* would provide. Do you want the highest possible result or not? If you do want high quality, and the Lumagen HDQ can't deliver 480i output, then use something else for capturing Laserdisc video.

    [Edit]*I mean "inverse telecining" or "IVTC"
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 28th Nov 2017 at 15:59. Reason: added clarification
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    Yes, Converting from native Interlaced to Progressive isn't really related to Restoring originally-Progressive footage, MASQUERADING as Interlaced, back to Progressive. "Deint" is the former and is interpolative (destructive?). TC & "IVTC" is the latter and is ultimately non-destructive. Pick which one is appropriate for your footage.

    Scott
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    [/QUOTE] I don't know what output resolutions the Lumagen HDQ is able to provide. I do know that doing a simple conversion from interlaced video to progressive, especially via older hardware, won't provide quality that is as good as detelecining* would provide. Do you want the highest possible result or not? If you do want high quality, and the Lumagen HDQ can't deliver 480i output, then use something else for capturing Laserdisc video. [/QUOTE]

    Of coarse I want the highest quality. I just learned that the lowest quality output setting for all processors is 480p. And in doing more research I learned the Lumagen Radiance 2144 has one of the best deinterlaceing functions out there.

    If it's best to capture at 480i, yet no processor outputs at 480i, is it better to get a pci-e card that has a great 3d comb filter? that can capture at 480i.


    Or capture the output from the Lumagen 2144 that has newer software that's designed for analog to digital conversion/3D comb filter/deinterlacing.
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  19. If you capture film based sources at 480p29.97 you will get one duplicate frame every 4 frames (ABCDDEFGHH...). If you capture at 480p59.94 you will get a 3:2 duplciate pattern (AAABBCCCDD...). Of course, both of those can be decimated to 23.976 film frames. But a proper IVTC will give you better results than any deinterlacer.

    And for true interlaced material no hardware deinterlacer works as well as QTGMC.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    If you capture film based sources at 480p29.97 you will get one duplicate frame every 4 frames (ABCDDEFGHH...
    So one way to deinterlace would be to go in and cut every forth frame if capturing at 29.97fps?

    Are you saying capturing at 480i will not duplicate any extra frames?
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  21. Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    If you capture film based sources at 480p29.97 you will get one duplicate frame every 4 frames (ABCDDEFGHH...
    So one way to deinterlace would be to go in and cut every forth frame if capturing at 29.97fps?
    Like I said, you can decimate back to 23.976 film frames. Note that the pattern may not be regular. You usually need a smart algorithm that adapts to changes in the pattern.

    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    Are you saying capturing at 480i will not duplicate any extra frames?
    You inverse telecine: field match and decimate to 23.976 fps.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    If you capture film based sources at 480p29.97 you will get one duplicate frame every 4 frames (ABCDDEFGHH...
    So one way to deinterlace would be to go in and cut every forth frame if capturing at 29.97fps?
    Like I said, you can decimate back to 23.976 film frames. Note that the pattern may not be regular. You usually need a smart algorithm that adapts to changes in the pattern.

    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    Are you saying capturing at 480i will not duplicate any extra frames?
    You inverse telecine: field match and decimate to 23.976 fps.
    When you say decimate back to 23.976, do you mean this is done during the Render process in my NLE? I use Sony Vegas Pro 12 and I see a few things that seem to deal with film fps.

    1) in Project Properties I can select "Frame Rate: 23.976 IVTC film"
    2) in the Render-as option I see "Frame Rate 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown"

    Once the footage is captured, do I change the Properties to the frame rate of 23.976 ivtc film, then render out at 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown? (depending if I captured at 29.97 or 59.94).
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  23. I don't know Vegas and its settings.
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    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    When you say decimate back to 23.976, do you mean this is done during the Render process in my NLE? I use Sony Vegas Pro 12 and I see a few things that seem to deal with film fps.

    1) in Project Properties I can select "Frame Rate: 23.976 IVTC film"
    2) in the Render-as option I see "Frame Rate 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown"

    Once the footage is captured, do I change the Properties to the frame rate of 23.976 ivtc film, then render out at 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown? (depending if I captured at 29.97 or 59.94).
    If someone adds pulldown while rendering, that is telecining, not inverse telecining.

    [Edit]If you are rendering MPEG-2, this looks to be an instruction for using soft telecining, where a flag is added to DVD video instructing a DVD player to insert extra telecene fields during playback, but the video on the DVD is actually 23.976

    Like jagabo, I don't use Vegas, and don't know what settings to use if you want to frame decimate progressive video.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 29th Nov 2017 at 09:21.
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    Originally Posted by If someone adds pulldown while rendering, that is telecining, not inverse telecining.

    [Edit
    If you are rendering MPEG-2, this looks to be an instruction for using soft telecining, where a flag is added to DVD video instructing a DVD player to insert extra telecene fields during playback, but the video on the DVD is actually 23.976
    So I definitely don't want to select 3-2 pulldown as I do not want any extra fields added correct?
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Yes, Converting from native Interlaced to Progressive isn't really related to Restoring originally-Progressive footage, MASQUERADING as Interlaced, back to Progressive. "Deint" is the former and is interpolative (destructive?). TC & "IVTC" is the latter and is ultimately non-destructive. Pick which one is appropriate for your footage.

    Scott
    "Pick which one is appropriate" as-in depending on if the footage was shot at 23.97 like most movies, or if the footage is originally from video tape 29.97?
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    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    Originally Posted by If someone adds pulldown while rendering, that is telecining, not inverse telecining.

    [Edit
    If you are rendering MPEG-2, this looks to be an instruction for using soft telecining, where a flag is added to DVD video instructing a DVD player to insert extra telecene fields during playback, but the video on the DVD is actually 23.976
    So I definitely don't want to select 3-2 pulldown as I do not want any extra fields added correct?
    Yes. You definitely don't want to perform hard telecining and soft telecining is only used for DVD, as far as I know.
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    One thing I'm still not comprehending is, is it best to capture to an analog pci card that has a built in 3D comb filter that captures at 480i, or capture from a high end processor that outputs at 480p (which has a 3d filter). And if it best to have the processor do the comb filtering, which ouputs do you use? S-video? Componente? Hmdi (if the capture device accepts 480p via hdmi)
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    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    If it's best to capture at 480i, yet no processor outputs at 480i, is it better to get a pci-e card that has a great 3d comb filter? that can capture at 480i.
    Laserdiscs were by and large created from film sources. 480i captures are the best way to go for NTSC interlaced video, especially for a video created from a film source. What will it take to make you believe we really do mean that this is the best way to go?

    Two suggestions for 480i capture were offered to you: You could get a PCI-e analog capture card with a 3D comb filter like the Osprey 260e or you could get one of the DVD recorders I suggested ($100 or less) to try with the Intensity Shuttle's S-video and component connections.

    Originally Posted by clashradio View Post
    One thing I'm still not comprehending is, is it best to capture to an analog pci card that has a built in 3D comb filter that captures at 480i, or capture from a high end processor that outputs at 480p (which has a 3d filter). And if it best to have the processor do the comb filtering, which ouputs do you use? S-video? Componente? Hmdi (if the capture device accepts 480p via hdmi)
    You are capturing from an analog source. A purely analog capture device would digitize it. The Intensity Shuttle accepts analog too and can digitize it. There is no real need for HDMI capture.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 29th Nov 2017 at 10:56.
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    Also, you keep mentioning "no processor does ...".
    What "processor"(s) are you talking about? There are plenty of capture apps that can save interlaced, including Vdub (which is also a "processor"). If you mean actual processing of an already captured file, AVISynth can deal with interlaced material, and it just passes the interlaced stream along to whichever encoder you are using (then it is up to whether that encoder supports interlacing or not). Most pro edit/compositing apps have no trouble with interlace because they know that pros still deal with lots of legacy material. E.g. AVIDMC, Vegas Pro, PremierePro, AfterEffects...

    It is almost ALWAYS best practice to cap losslessly in the native resolution, framerate, color subsampling, cadence of your source and then process for restoration/noise-reduction/optimization again losslessly (codecwise), and then, AFTER THE FACT, convert to progressive or scale up to HD/down to SD, or whatever codec, etc. for end-use/distribution.

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