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Why don't you just experiment with that little sample you provided and see what looks best?
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Quickest way is to open the MPG in VirtualDub and click "File..." -> "file information" for the frame size, frame rate, and other info.
Get more info using MediaInfoXP to get a text report on the frame structure and other data. Get MediaInfoXP here: https://www.videohelp.com/software/MediaInfoXP. A MediaInfoXP report is posted below.
If you can't open MPG diectly in Virtualdub, you need FCCHandler's MPEG2 VirtualDub plugin. Get it here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/fcchandler/files/Virtualdub%20Mpeg2%20plugin/mpeg2.zip/download.
The zip contains 4 files. Look over the "ReadMe.txt" file for instructions. If you're using 32-bit VirtualDub, use the 32-bit version of the plugin. If you're using the 64-bit version of Virtualdub (I wouldn't do it) use the 64-bit version.
Open the MPG in Virtualdub and scroll thru the video using frame-by-frame. You'll see interlace effects (fuzzy edges or combing) in 2 of every 5 frames during motion. This indicates pulldown (telecine, also called 2:3 pulldown).
If you see interlace effects on every frame during motion, it's interlaced.
MediaInfoXP reports the frame rate here as 23.976, but pulldown is used to get 29.97 fps playback. Sometime you'll just see 29.976 if pulldown can't be detected accurately. Text report from MediaInfoXP:
Code:General Format : MPEG-PS File size : 10.9 MiB Duration : 9s 600ms Overall bit rate mode : Variable Overall bit rate : 9 530 Kbps Video ID : 224 (0xE0) Format : MPEG Video Format version : Version 2 Format profile : Main@Main Format settings, BVOP : Yes Format settings, Matrix : Custom Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=12 Duration : 9s 359ms Bit rate mode : Variable Bit rate : 8 444 Kbps Maximum bit rate : 9 800 Kbps Width : 720 pixels Height : 480 pixels Display aspect ratio : 16:9 Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) fps Color space : YUV Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0 Bit depth : 8 bits Scan type : Progressive Scan order : 2:3 Pulldown Compression mode : Lossy Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 1.019 Stream size : 9.40 MiB (86%) Audio #1 ID : 189 (0xBD)-128 (0x80) Format : AC-3 Format/Info : Audio Coding 3 Mode extension : CM (complete main) Format settings, Endianness : Big Muxing mode : DVD-Video Duration : 9s 600ms Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 448 Kbps Channel(s) : 6 channels Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz Frame rate : 31.250 fps (1536 spf) Compression mode : Lossy Delay relative to video : -82ms Stream size : 525 KiB (5%) Audio #2 ID : 189 (0xBD)-129 (0x81) Format : AC-3 Format/Info : Audio Coding 3 Mode extension : CM (complete main) Format settings, Endianness : Big Muxing mode : DVD-Video Duration : 9s 568ms Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 448 Kbps Channel(s) : 2 channels Channel positions : Front: L R Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz Frame rate : 31.250 fps (1536 spf) Compression mode : Lossy Delay relative to video : -82ms Stream size : 523 KiB (5%)
- My sister Ann's brother -
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You could have done it in a single step by using the [ and ] buttons in DGIndex to isolate the section you wanted and then File->Save Project and Demux Video.
Yes, it can be difficult. but not with your sample. You can set the DGIndex Field Operation to Forced Film, make the D2V project file and get an already progressive 23.976fps video from it to be used in your AviSynth script with MPEG2Source. This doesn't say the rest of it is like that. As mentioned by LMotlow, your best way to determine what you have is your eyes by examining different parts of the video. The DGIndex Preview (or examination of the resulting D2V file) can be helpful as well (although it shows true interlace the same as hard telecine), to let you know if it's entirely soft telecined or a mix of hard and soft telecine as is common with anime. -
Thank you, LMotlow and manono!
Opening up each VOB file individually in VirtualDub (using the MPEG2 plugin), I am seeing 2:3 pulldown everywhere I look. Sometimes it looks like "1:4," but I think those are just similar frames that make the telecine difficult to detect. So it looks like it's safe to say my source is not interlaced.
But I'm still not clear on the frame rate. Opening up the VOB in MediaInfoXP, it says the frame rate is 29.970, as opposed to the 23.976 it says when I open the sample. I assume this is because of what LMotlow says about pulldown not always being detected accurately.
So does that mean the original framerate is 23.976 or 29.97?
That's my current process exactly. But if the source is 29.97fps, wouldn't I be dropping frames by doing this?
Is the difference between hard and soft telecine something I should understand for what I'm doing?
I experimented beforehand. The problem is, all of my results looked good. So in that sense, I'm more interested in doing what's correct as opposed to doing what looks good--but I also want the video to look as good as possible while still being done properly.
I searched before posting, but the most relevant thread I found was this, which wasn't very helpful:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/166869-How-do-you-correctly-determine-the-original-FPS-of-video -
That tells you virtually nothing since VDub will always show the interlaced 29.97 framerate. What you want to know is whether it's soft telecine, hard telecine, or a mix. One way is to open all the VOBs in DGindex and run the Preview. Another is to make a D2V file and then look at the bottom to check the film (or video) percentage.
So does that mean the original framerate is 23.976 or 29.97?
That's my current process exactly. But if the source is 29.97fps, wouldn't I be dropping frames by doing this?
Is the difference between hard and soft telecine something I should understand for what I'm doing? -
Search for "DVD pulldown telecine".
All NTSC DVDs output 59.94 fields per second. They can be encoded as progressive at any frame rate from 19.98 to 29.97 fps with soft pulldown (flags in the stream that tell the player how to produce 59.94 fields per second from the frames), or any frame rate can go through hard pulldown to 29.97 interlaced frames per second. Beyond that there are frame rate conversions with field blending and/or frame blending -- sometimes more than one conversion.
In my opinion the best way to determine the frame rate (and detect field/frame blending -- which requires very different handling) is to apply a simple bob filter (after soft pulldown, if necessary) and count the number of unique (ignoring bob artifacts) frames per second during a panning shot.
Some material (cartoons and anime, the intro of a TV series, music videos, etc.) is a mix of frame rates (8 fps, 12 fps, 24 fps, 30 fps, 60 fields per second, etc.). For example, cartoons often have characters animated at 12 fps panning shots at 24 fps, and title overlays at 60 fields per second.
Your sample was 23.976 fps with soft pulldown.Last edited by jagabo; 23rd Jun 2017 at 07:56.
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I usually just use Bob() in AviSynth, or Bob Doubler in VirtualDub. It gives lots of aliasing artifacts but I just ignore those, it's otherwise pretty foolproof. You could also use Yadif(mode=1). Even QTGMC() -- but that's very slow, and sometimes its filtering masks or adds motion.
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The DGIndex help file says 95% is the threshold for selecting Forced Film rather than Honor Pulldown Flags, but I've also read on this forum that the threshold is 99%. Is the contradiction here on the forums a precaution to be safe?
How would I know if my source is a mix of soft telecine and hard telecine?
I tried the VDub bob doubler. I can't make any sense of the pattern in the result. It doesn't appear to resemble anything I've seen discussed.
See attached sample. -
Yes.
That's what DgIndex is telling you above. "Film" is progressive frame with pulldown flags (soft telecine). "Interlaced" is hard telecine (or true interlaced video from a video camera).
You used the wrong field order in the Bob Doubler filter. -
So what would be a mix between soft and hard telecine? Interlaced Film?
Thanks! I switched it. The pattern of unique (excluding anti-aliasing discrepancies) frames I count after applying the bob doubler is now 4-6-4-6. I was expecting 2-3-2-3 based on what I've read, but since the bob doubler doubles the framerate, I guess I should have seen this coming. 4-6-4-6 after using a bob doubler means that the video's base framerate is 23.976 fps, and that it uses 2-3 pulldown (soft telecine), right? -
Assuming no true interlaced content, any film percentage less than 100.
Interlaced Film?
What you see can come from either hard or soft telecine. Gotta sample of this 4-6-4-6? -
It should be 3:2. Did you bob the video in your AviSynth script and in VirtualDub? That would show a 4:6 pattern. Your AviSynth script should only contain a source filter and maybe a colorspace conversion:
Code:Mpeg2Source("VTS_01_6.d2v") ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)
Or better yet, perform the bob in AviSynth and use VirtualDub only to view the result:
Code:Mpeg2Source("VTS_01_6.d2v") Bob()
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No, just in VirtualDub.
How would I know if it should have a colorspace conversion?
Yes, 29.97 fps.
That's what I did.
Same result. See attached file: bob (AviSynth).avi
See attached file: bob doubler (VirtualDub).avi -
VirtualDub doesn't handle interlaced YV12 properly. So you usually want to convert it to YUY2 or RGB before using VirtualDub. It doesn't matter here if you ignore the chroma artifacts (barely visible in your test clip because the motions are so small).
Both show a 3:2 repeat pattern.
By the way, use a panning show with more motion -- it will be much easier to see. -
Not only is it difficult to see in the posted samples, it's very slow motion and very small motion. Animation can fool you, too, as it's often created with duplicate frame patterns long before any form of pulldown is applied.
Attached is a DVD action scene from an old Errol Flynn movie. Fast motion, lots of figures, cross pans and vertical pans. Even without bobbing, the 3:2 pattern is easy to see (along with Turner Classic Movies' sloppy encoding). The DVD sample is hard telecined, meaning that the video shows the 3:2 telecine pattern but there are no telecine flags: the telecined frames are physically interlaced. DGIndex will report this video's "Frame Type" as Interlaced. However, DGIndex will report your soft-telecined VOB sample's "Frame Type" as "Film".
Another tool you can use is the old GSpot. No longer developed, but it's still good for fast analyzing many standard formats.
With your soft telecined-flagged VOB_6 example, GSPot reports that "Pics" = 23.976, "Frames"=29.970, and "Fields" = 59.94 (follow the arrow in the image below):
With the attached "Hard Telecine Demo B.mpg" and its hard-interlaced telecine, GSPot reports that "Pics" = 29.970, "Frames"=29.970, and "Fields" = 59.94 :
I don't have soft-telecined DVD samples around at the moment. Whether hard or soft, telecine looks the same way in VirtualDub and other apps that don't pay attention to pulldown flags.- My sister Ann's brother -
While it's true that soft and hard telecine look the same in VirtualDub, it's because VirtualDub does pay attention to pulldown flags. Ie, it performs the pulldown to create interlaced frames from the progressive frames stored in the MPEG video. The old VirtualDubMod ignores the pulldown flags and displays progressive frames.
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It only means it's not 4-6-4-6. That's why I asked for a sample as I, like jagabo, supposed you either had bobbed in your script before bobbing again in VDub, or something screwy was going on. You can get that pattern with animations where there are often lots of duplicate frames.
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No. That means it's 4:6. Just open the video in VirtualDub, apply no filters, and step through it. You should a 3:2 repeat pattern. If you're still seeing 4:6, go to Video -> Filters... and verify there are no filters (VirtualDub can be set up to automatically apply desired filters at startup).
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Now I count 3-2-3-2. I have no idea how I was seeing 4-6-4-6 before.
Thanks everyone for all of your help.
I've made an attempt organize the information I've gathered from this thread and others into a guide I can use as reference. Maybe it can also help other people who stumble across this thread. If any part of it is wrong, please let me know.
For determining the base framerate of the DVD and whether or not it is soft telecined or hard telecined, here are several methods as they become available throughout the process of making an AVI from DVD.
After ripping the DVD to your hard drive, use DGIndex to open the VOB (or VOBs if there are more than one).
File > Preview
"Video Type" will either say "Film" (soft telecine), or "NTSC" (hard telecine).
If the percentage is lower than 99%, it's hard telecined.
If the percentage is 99% or higher, it's soft telecined.
"Frame Type" will either say "Progressive" (soft telecine) or "Interlaced" (either hard telecine or [if from a video camera] true interlaced video).
Video > Field Operation > Honor Pulldown Flags
File > Save Project
Make an AviSynth script script and open it in VirtualDub.
Bob the video. One way is to use the VirtualDub filter "bob doubler."
Video > Filters... > Add... > bob doubler
Field order > Top field first
Or you can do it in an AviSynth script:
Code:Bob()
Code:(Yadif(Mode=1,Order=1))
Open the AVI in VirtualDub and count the number of unique (ignoring aliasing artifacts) frames per second during a panning shot.
This quote from manono tells how to interpret the count:
Open up the new D2V file created by DGIndex to check the film percentage at the bottom of the file (the same 99% threshold applies).
If necessary, redo the DGIndex process, this time selecting the correct Field Operation (Forced Film vs. Honor Pulldown Flags).
If your source is soft telecined, select this option:
Video > Field Operation > Forced Film
This results in progressive 23.976 fps.
If your source is hard telecined, select this option:
Video > Field Operation > Honor Pulldown Flags
This results in interlaced 29.97 fps.
If your source is hard telecined, your D2V file will now be ready to IVTC (inverse telecine) in your AviSynth script.
After the IVTC, it'll be progressive 23.976 fps. -
If I'm sure there's no true video (It's a movie) and it's not field blended, if the film percentage is anything less than 100, then I always make the D2V project file using 'Honor Pulldown Flags' and set up my IVTC like this:
TFM(d2v="Movie.d2v").Tdecimate()
That way the progressive 23.976fps with soft pulldown will be treated as if you had used Forced Film and only the hard telecined parts will undergo the full IVTC. It's faster than a full IVTC and much less prone to making mistakes. The TFM - Readme.txt file explains all about the D2V setting.
If necessary, redo the DGIndex process...
Stream_Type=1
MPEG_Type=2
iDCT_Algorithm=6
YUVRGB_Scale=1
Luminance_Filter=0,0
Clipping=0,0,0,0
Aspect_Ratio=4:3
Picture_Size=720x480
Field_Operation=0
Frame_Rate=29970 (30000/1001)
If at the bottom it says '100.00% FILM' and you want to use 'Forced Film' instead, just edit the D2V project File so it says at the top:
Stream_Type=1
MPEG_Type=2
iDCT_Algorithm=6
YUVRGB_Scale=1
Luminance_Filter=0,0
Clipping=0,0,0,0
Aspect_Ratio=4:3
Picture_Size=720x480
Field_Operation=1
Frame_Rate=23976 (24000/1001)
And vice-versa.
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