Help losslessly editing single-frame 720x576 16:9 .m2v files for remux

[MK Inst]

Hi there, bit of a newbie here - although I do sort of know a bit about formats, this problem has been bugging the hell out of me.

Basically I ripped and demuxed a DVD's menus into all it's myriad of .ac3 and .m2v files. This DVD is highly interactive and came with literally over an hour of audio clips and animated sequences just on the menu screens alone. (it's The Secret Show Volume 1 & 2 if you're wondering)

The menu files ended up being split into exactly 201 different screens, loops and transitions, all with audio tracks ranging form two seconds to two minutes. Most of these I was able to comfortably mux back as lossless .mpegs with all the footage synced with the audio, in the original 720x576 16:9. However, shock and horror, 99 of those screens were audio files that played over a single looped still-frame, which were demuxed as .ac3 and .m2v files like the rest but the audio track obviously goes on far longer than the single-frame "video" file.

I have tried several different programs to try losslessly repeating that frame and actually mux it back to the full-length audio track, but MPEG-Streamclip spits the dummy and says "read error" when I try to save it as a single frame .mpeg and doesn't even register the audio track anymore as soon as I try to copy/paste the frame on itself manually. VLC didn't have a corrupted it and iMovie just didn't even try. Not even Wondershare Filmora could stomach it. The closest I came was using lil' ol' Quicktime but it could only do 1080p not the original 720x576.

Is there any way that any of you can think of of losslessly editing 720x576 16:9 .m2v files, single frame or otherwise? It's a pretty horrid combination but this DVD is so rare and so full of unseen-material that I'm determined to get my "100% extraction completion achivement" on them.

Yours, MK

[smrpix]

Why not simply duplicate the disk as an iso and leverage the existing navigation? What are you hoping to accomplish?

[poisondeathray]

What do you mean by "original 1080i"?

How did a DVD become "1080i ?"

[MK Inst]

smrpix - I'm hoping to export every screen from the menus as individual video files

poisondeathray - the original DVD is in 720 × 576 16:9, that's how it was made. I believe that's what 1080i is, but correct me if I'm wrong, I'll amend my post in that case.

[LMotlow]

DVD is never 1080i. 1080i is 1920x1080 or 1440x1080.
DVD Spec (PAL/NTSC): https://www.videohelp.com/dvd#tech
HD spec (PAL/NTSC): https://www.videohelp.com/hd#tech

[MK Inst]

LMotlow - WHOOPS. Thanks. I've fixed the post to say the right sort of things. Man I feel dumb now. XD

[manono]

smrpix - I'm hoping to export every screen from the menus as individual video files

That's easy enough to do, but I thought you were trying to do a lot more than that.

You can extract them as BMPs and reauthor them as little DVDs using Muxman. You can demux the M2Vs (or even as VOBs) using PGCDemux. You can extract VOBs using VobBlanker. You can take the BMPs and convert them to M2V using the menu maker in DVDAuthorGUI if you don't know how to do it yourself. But, like smrpix, I'm kind of baffled as to what you're trying to accomplish. If, as the thread title states, you want to extract the static menu backgrounds for editing and later reinsertion into the DVD, I wrote a guide for that:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/254043-Guide-for-extracting-menus-for-editing-and-...g-edited-menus

Is there any way that any of you can think of of losslessly editing 720x576 16:9 .m2v files, single frame or otherwise?

The guide explains how to do that, the extracting and reinserting part, anyway. The editing is up to you.

If you did what you did and the menu is now screwed up, then you used the wrong programs to put the pieces back together.

[MK Inst]

manono - I've already used PGCDemux to get the demuxed .ac3 and .m2v files, but I'm not trying to make them into a DVD again. Here maybe this will help explain it:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7w57zGyAcolTE93ai1yaWI1aHc
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7w57zGyAcoldW5vY01jcVdvVjg

My main purpose in this is archival, not functionality. A lot of material from this show is very rare and I want to showcase all the different menus as individual video files, as losslessly as possible.
These are all the files I've managed to get so far. The only reason some are missing is that some of the .m2v files are not as long as their .ac3 counterparts, mostly because some of the .m2v files are only a single frame in length while their audio is 30 seconds long. I'm trying to save all of them as remuxed .mpeg files by first looping those cells repeatedly and then remuxing, but for some reason nothing I've tried allows me to do so whilst keeping the original 720x576 16:9. Whilst your guide is wonderfully in-depth I don't think it quite answers my question - I'm basically just looking to loop these frames for set periods into footage, not edit the actual image. I originally used iMovie to get a decent result but I found out it natively compresses everything, so lossless export seems impossible. It's a relatively simple thing to do in principle but why is it so hard in practice?

[manono]

Here maybe this will help explain it:

Nope, doesn't explain a thing. I can't even figure out how to play them, much less download them to study and test.

Save them out as BMP and open the BMP and AC3 audio in Muxman to save out as a DVD. The video will last as long as the audio. If you insist on MPG, convert the VOB file afterwards using VOB2MPEG or some such. You might be able to go direct to MPG by opening your M2V in Imago MPEG-Muxer, adding your audio and creating the MPG. I don't know for sure, though, as I don't have anything suitable with which to test.

Edit: I figured how to download them, but none can be used for testing as they're longer.

Second Edit: Yes, Imago can do it. Open your single frame (or more) M2V and your longer AC3 audio and mux to MPG. It'll end when the audio does.

[MK Inst]

manono - Thank you! I'll give that a whirl when I have the time but it sounds perfect. I need to go to a maths tutorial now but I'll let you know how it goes when I get back. Thanks again!

Edit - actually wait, just gave it a quick try on one of the smaller files and it sort-of worked... MPEGStreamclip plays the footage to the full length without audio (although I think this is because one of my plugins is broken), Windows Media Player only plays the audio but no footage, and everything else still treats it like a single frame, not footage, and only plays that frame and stops... Just waiting on Google Drive to process it because if it's preview does the same then I'm in trouble again.

Edit again - Google drive shows the frame in the thumbnail but the actual video is black - the audio plays correctly but gets cut off, although I think this is because Google may have not quite finished rendering it. It's also interesting to note that the preview interface is the old one that glitches on selecting a point in the video to play from, even though all other videos in that folder use the current, more stable interface...

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7Tjk8MKs_RLVmZxM21HZ2VLZ2M

There're also several files where the video stops a few frames before the audio, thus cutting off the ends slightly.

[MK Inst]

To give a run down, I have several files demuxed into .ac3 and .m2v components where:

1) the video is only a single frame but the audio is at least several seconds
2) the video contains both legit footage and a still-frame at the end, and has audio over both portions
3) the video is footage with no stills but ends a few frames before the audio, cutting it off slightly. (not sure why this is, actually)


1) would be fixed by just looping the frame over the audio. Imago MPEG-Muxer seemed to do this but in fact the "video" is still stored as a single frame and only MPEGStreamclip appears to interpret this as intended, and saving it as a .mpeg with it makes no difference for other programs.

2) again Imago looks like it fixes this but it has the same result. Most players only process the footage part but don't acknowledge the portion with the still-frame, except for MPEGSreamclip.

3) is NOT fixed by Imago. It looks like I would have to manually add some frames at the end, but this looks surprisingly hard to do losslessly.

[jagabo]

You might be able to append the 1 frame m2v itself to produce a 2 frame m2v with the command line:

copy /b f1.m2v + f1.m2v f2.m2v

You can append any number of source files using this technique. For example, to create a 5 frame m2v from the 1 frame m2v:

copy /b f1.m2v + f1.m2v + f1.m2v + f1.m2v + f1.m2v f5.m2v

To create a 25 frame m2v from that 5 frame m2v:

copy /b f5.m2v + f5.m2v + f5.m2v + f5.m2v + f5.m2v f25.m2v

That creates a video that's 1 second long if the frame rate is 25 fps.

You can create any length video you want by appending this way. The resulting file probably won't work for DVD because the bitrate will be too high (I frames require a lot more bitrate than B and P frames).

Here's a 5 second example made from an I frame of one of your sample videos, appended 125 times.

[MK Inst]

Jagabo - so, would I just do that in Terminal or Command Prompt then?

It's interesting, but Windows Media Player treats that x125 you sent as an 11-second fie but stops when it gets to 0:04...

Also, now that I know I can upload files, here's one of example 2) I mentioned. (If it's not considered spamming I'll attach examples of 1) and 3) in my next posts)

[jagabo]

I'm not sure the single I frame I extracted from a longer video made was made correctly. Upload one of your single frame m2v files.

[MK Inst]

jagabo - sure thing:

[manono]

Included is a VOB file made from your 2 sources using Muxman and an MPG made from them in Imago MPEG-Muxer. Both play fine in MPC-HC.

[manono]

Sorry, double post.

[MK Inst]

Sadly that appears to suffer exactly the same problem as the other one I tried myself: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7Tjk8MKs_RLb0FPRG5NMm56dHc
Even though it's an mpeg just like all the others in that folder, it stutters dreadfully, doesn't show the footage until the last second, cuts off the audio and the actual image quality is dreadful - why is Google Drive doing this?? All the other files worked fine...

[poisondeathray]

Sadly that appears to suffer exactly the same problem as the other one I tried myself: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7Tjk8MKs_RLb0FPRG5NMm56dHc
Even though it's an mpeg just like all the others in that folder, it stutters dreadfully, doesn't show the footage until the last second, cuts off the audio and the actual image quality is dreadful - why is Google Drive doing this?? All the other files worked fine...

Because it's a single frame .

Did you need it compatible with google drive flash playback , or web? You realize that the google or youtube playback is re-encoded , right ? It's probably deinterlaced on the re-encode maybe from the TFF flag contributing to the poor image quality, in addition to the re-encode

I just looked at a few random ones in that folder but the other files were actual clips (more than one frame)

If you physically concatenated the single frame 750 times for 30 seconds it should work . You might need "proper" software like videoredo or solveigmm to do it , because they need to take account of the timecodes

But it's a very inefficient way of doing things, make a file "x" times larger instead of looping or repeating . If you need it compatible with web, it needs to be re-encoded anyways. mpeg2 won't stream in a browser. And there are more efficient ways of encoding and formats compatible with browsers. Also there is HTML5 trickery you can use

If this was really for archival purposes, just save copies of the ISO as suggested earlier

[manono]

Sadly that appears to suffer exactly the same problem as the other one I tried myself: [url]https://drive.google.com

Why do you care how it plays in Google Drive? Does it play on your computer? And using a real player and not WMP?

Is this whole thread about making single-frame MPGs play correctly in Google Drive? Ain't gonna happen. I thought it was about losslessly muxing single-frame M2Vs into MPG.

My main purpose in this is archival...

And the best choice for archiving you could come up with was Google Drive? Can't you store them in Dropbox or something similar?

[jagabo]

I thought I had it worked out but was wrong.

[poisondeathray]

Google Drive is ok to host the original files (you are able download the original), but the point is all browser playback is re-encoded (in the browser you're not viewing the original file, but a re-encoded one)

If the "goal" was to showcase it on a website or browser, it needs to be re-encoded anyways, and there are better methods and approaches to do this . You can actually do fancy things like re-create the navigation driven through HTML, you can make interactive video, even more than DVD allows for . But eitherway the assets will need to be re-encoded.

Also, if you look closely, there are problems with the "original" to begin with. For example , in the single frame example some macroblocking . In the clip example, there is a lower quality, bad frame at the end (it might be from the way the sample was cut), but it will flutter very slightly when you loop it . You migth consider "fixing" or improve those but it requires re-encoding. I would argue that true digital preservation means keeping the problems even if the subjective quality is lower. ISO is the way to go

Manono's single frame example works fine for local software playback. But another thing to consider is other types of software, editors etc... might not "like" it . So it depends on what the context or how it might be used. Other methods might be MKV and using ordered chapters to control looping (but again , compatibility issues with other software)

For single frame concatenating, sometimes the trouble is existing timecodes or start time (you might be able to strip or reset some values with restream), sometimes it's the muxer not "expecting" this type of configuration (you might need to set it not to DVD-video or "vob", but generic program stream or something else like a transport stream). Certainly the bitrate will exceed DVD spec for the single I-frame joins, maybe not for the full clip repeat versions . If there were problems with the ffmpeg method, try maybe restream first, then transport stream container (-f mpegts instead of -f vob)



I still think it's "dumb" to physically repeat frames (either single frames or loop a clip), and certainly not efficient. These were done in solveigmm , and I confirmed they work on google drive 's preview . I used 7zip to archive. Look at the filesize expansion and how much 7zip can compress the filesize (because it's just repeated, redundant data, also more extra container overhead for TS) , but for the single frame example 794.1KB compressed becomes 59.4MB (!)

VideoFile_Joined is the clip from post 13, 5sec x7 35 sec ; single_VideoFile_Joined is the single frame x 750 for 30 sec

[MK Inst]

Okay, so, I feel like I've offended a lot of people with my general noobish idiocy so I'm gonna take a step back and try this over. If it doesn't make me seem like too much more of a dummkopf, all of these files were going to go on Google Drive so they could be viewed on a tumblr blog a few friends of mine run to archive literally everything from this show. I literally do not care about .7z compression, I want these things to be previewable, and I have the drive-space to hold large files anyway. If doing it the inefficient way is the only way to make G-Drive not be an complete idiot about previewing things then I'm gonna do it that way.

Probably gonna make an ISO as well as someone IRL actually recommended that to me last week but my stubborn thickheadedness was determined to do it the 'individual files' way, although that looks like it's not gonna happen all that easily anymore. Will see if ffmpeg's "copy /b f1.m2v + f1.m2v f2.m2v" formula works, but if not I'm just gonna do the ISO. Thank you everyone for all your help, even if it was wasted on my stupidity.

[poisondeathray]

The 7zip was just to reduce the filesize to upload the demo. When you unzip and upload to google drive I confirmed it works and previewable.

If the goal is to make them "previewable" in a browser, do you care about the quality of the preview ? As you might be aware, google/YT re-encode with low bitrate / suboptimal settings.

But you can actually use google drive as a separate video host/CDN , but you have to setup the index and HTML webpage. Basically you're using google drive as a bandwidth host. That way you control the quality of the re-encode instead of letting them re-encode with low quality. It might be less apparent on simple animation or cartoons, but on other types of content, the quality is very poor. If you use google drive as a web video host - it streams the original file you specify instead of incurring additional generation loss (but again, can't be mpeg2) . Warning - but if use google drive as a video host and you get lots of bandwidth/hits, google will take it down. If it's just a small circle of friends, you should be ok . You can make the original mpeg2 assets available in a separate folder as well

[poisondeathray]

It looks like ffmpeg concat + tsmuxer to add the audio works for the single file example, as a free alternative to one of the payware suggestions. It should work for the appended clip scenario too, provided the clips were cut or extracted correctly on GOP boundaries without open GOPs

https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/Concatenate

You make a text list of what to join, so for the single frame example it would like this .

file 'PATH\VideoFile.m2v'
file 'PATH\VideoFile.m2v'
file 'PATH\VideoFile.m2v'
.
.
.

ffmpeg -f concat -safe 0 -i list.txt -c copy output.m2v

[jagabo]

Yes, I used ffmpeg to do the same -- to make a 30 second sample from the m2v file in post #13. But some players show the file as 60 seconds long, not 30. They then play for only 30 seconds. I discovered that you can use a program like DVDPatcher to change the bitrate of the source file to 16000000, then use ffmpeg to concatenate, produces a file that players see as 30 seconds. I though all was well and fine. But... when I mux the file with the audio I get a file that most players have problems with. MPCHC will play for about one second then stop. If move the seek bar it will play for another second then stop again. I tried several muxers, all gave the same problem. Using this command line in ffmpeg:

ffmpeg -y -i input.m2v -i input.ac3 -c copy -map 0:0 -map 1:0 output.mpg

Generates an warning message about AC3 in an MPEG 1 program stream, and lots of error messages about buffer underflows. I can get rid of the AC3 warning by forcing an MPEG 2 program stream with:

ffmpeg -y -i input.m2v -i input.ac3 -c copy -map 0:0 -map 1:0 -f vob output.mpg

but I still get all the buffer underflow messages and a file that doesn't play properly. I don't know enough about MPG muxing to get around the underflow issue.

Muxing that way with an all i frame m2v I made with hcenc generated a file that played properly.

[poisondeathray]

If you're worried about underflows, put it in a mpeg2 transport stream (-f mpegts output.ts for ffmpeg, or use tsmuxer which is probably a better idea) . Or you can specify the maxrate and buffer manually, but it's probably better to use a transport stream

-f vob means vob for DVD-video, so you're expected to get muxing problems in a mpeg2 program stream with I-frame only . DVD spec <10Mbps . The single frame example I uploaded was 16Mbps . Other I-frames joins might be even larger

[jagabo]

If you're worried about underflows, put it in a mpeg2 transport stream (-f mpegts output.ts for ffmpeg, or use tsmuxer which is probably a better idea) . Or you can specify the maxrate and buffer manually, but it's probably better to use a transport stream

I should have mentioned it, but I tried all those things. Nothing worked with the appended video (but no problems with the all I-frame video I made with hcenc.

-f vob means vob for DVD-video, so you're expected to get muxing problems in a mpeg2 program stream with I-frame only . DVD spec <10Mbps . The single frame example I uploaded was 16Mbps . Other I-frames joins might be even larger

VOB or MPG, both were the same -- don't play properly. And again, the all I-frame video (16Mb/s) had no problems.

[poisondeathray]

You mean the 5sec clip in post #13 ? ffmpeg seems to have problems joining that . It has a non zero start time, that might have something to do with it . Tsmuxer seems to work ok ("join" copies of itself x7 for 35 sec)

[jagabo]

Oh, sorry, I was working with the clip in post #15. The single frame clip. Appended exactly as you did in post #25. I also tested with command line "copy /b ..." as I originally proposed in post in post #12.

copy "%~dpn1.m2v" f1.m2v
copy/b f1.m2v+f1.m2v+f1.m2v+f1.m2v+f1.m2v f5.m2v
copy/b f5.m2v+f5.m2v+f5.m2v+f5.m2v+f5.m2v s1.m2v
copy/b s1.m2v+s1.m2v+s1.m2v+s1.m2v+s1.m2v s5.m2v
copy/b s5.m2v+s5.m2v+s5.m2v+s5.m2v+s5.m2v+s5.m2v s30.m2v

And with a single frame cut from a few other videos. All with similar results.