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  1. Member
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    All bought DVDs I used always jump chapters to next/previous in a flash.
    But the ones I burn takes 2-4s or so - why is that?
    Image freeze and there is a clear wait.

    Even from memory drives like usb or SDHC this happends - they are 80 MB/s cards.

    To do with how software burns it all?
    Or to do with editor prepares a disk?

    Some options in professional editors not usually available on more prosumer ones - that put more navigations stuff when preparing?
    Thinking if chapter table with direct offset into disk or something.

    Any particular terms to look for in manuals about this?

    Thanks.
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  2. Dinosaur Supervisor KarMa's Avatar
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    Maybe professional DVD authors put the chapter on an I-frame, which can be decoded by itself. Where as you might be putting the chapter marker on a P or B-frame which requires the decoding of all the frames before that frame until you reach the start of the GOP (the I-frame). For PAL DVDs, the maximum GOP size is 15 frames and 18 frames for NTSC.
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    Thanks, but that would only account for half a second delay or not as I see it. Roughly 1.5-2 GOPs a second or so.

    I've seen delay doing backward playback though, that might involve that delay for natural reasons in frames being incremental one way.

    I've put time-lapse from stills in two ways into a video and are about to compare any difference in quality.
    One putting images in full resolution from camera, other downsized before inserting into video editor.

    So putting chapter markers at each start I felt I should be able to jump back and forth in an instant way to compare same frame.

    Maybe I should take snapshots instead and compare single images.

    But if anybody know what is wrong - please share it.....
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  4. Originally Posted by larioso View Post
    All bought DVDs I used always jump chapters to next/previous in a flash.
    But the ones I burn takes 2-4s or so - why is that?
    Maybe tell us the method you use to create chapters when authoring for DVD. I can jump back and forth in mine just as quickly as in any retail DVD. I usually use Muxman for authoring, and sometimes DVDAuthorGUI.

    Originally Posted by KarMa View Post
    Maybe professional DVD authors put the chapter on an I-frame...
    Chapter points, by definition, are always on an I-Frame. If you create them during the encode, it'll create an I-Frame at that frame if there's not one there already. If you assign them by frame or by time afterwards (like when authoring), unless it's on an I-Frame already it'll assign that chapter point to a nearby I-Frame.
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    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    Originally Posted by larioso View Post
    All bought DVDs I used always jump chapters to next/previous in a flash.
    But the ones I burn takes 2-4s or so - why is that?
    Maybe tell us the method you use to create chapters when authoring for DVD. I can jump back and forth in mine just as quickly as in any retail DVD. I usually use Muxman for authoring, and sometimes DVDAuthorGUI.
    Thank you.
    I recently used PowerDirector 15 mostly, since I like it a lot and easy to use.
    Just use chapter tool and add chapter and drag them into position on timeline.

    I started just moving files I made i Produce mode onto media like usb and played back on Xbox One MediaPlayer app.
    Horrible result - MediaPlayer app takes as long as playing the video itself, it just freeze the frame where you press next and continue playing once reading through the video which takes the same time as playing the video through anyway.

    So I started making AVCHD DVD directly for playback on Xbox One Blu-ray player app.
    Same result moving to chapters - takes the almost the same time. You can set info on so you see bitrate while playing - and it tried to read faster through file to find the chapter. But really toyish Xbox One and what they did.

    So felt this is useless, so I bought standalone Panasonic DMP-DBT460EG player.
    But time to next chapter seem to work the same way - just reading though file.
    Using AVCHD DVD it goes quicker than Xbox, and using SDHC as burned media it goes quicker about 2s - but still much longer than bought DVDs.
    But it works fine stepping frame by frame which is good.

    I will look at your software mentioned on links and test.

    There must be something extra, like a table with direct offset to position for next chapter missing or something is my current theory.
    One thing I must check is that I did not create a menu system with chapters selections etc - this might have something to do with it.
    If you have direct selection of chapter from menu - you might have direct access in another way to a chapter which player can use when moving directly between chapters too.

    One thing though, since I now work with full hd resolutions - maybe things take longer.
    I have only one BD disc with a documentary that came with a game - and that works too and move quickly.

    But must make a test with menus on disk - me chicken out on that may be the problem.
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  6. How does it work in the DVD player on the computer? Same thing? Then I might suggest demuxing the entire DVD (video, audio, chapters) using PGCDemux. Follow that by reauthoring using Muxman. Then test. If there's a menu you can add the reauthored DVD to the original one, getting back the menus, using PGCEdit or VobBlanker.

    I trust anything produced by Cyberlink about as far as I can throw it, but maybe that's just me.
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    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    How does it work in the DVD player on the computer? Same thing? Then I might suggest demuxing the entire DVD (video, audio, chapters) using PGCDemux. Follow that by reauthoring using Muxman. Then test. If there's a menu you can add the reauthored DVD to the original one, getting back the menus, using PGCEdit or VobBlanker.

    I trust anything produced by Cyberlink about as far as I can throw it, but maybe that's just me.
    Thanks for suggestions.

    I removed menu stuff since Xbox One did not recognize it - I had to set to autoplay or could not play at all.
    Remains to be seen if Cyberlink do it right using the Panasonic player.
    I will try later today if I get a chance.

    Is there many different types of standards and options?
    Looking at settings in ImgBurn - and there are plenty.
    ISO 9660, Joliet, UDF.

    Different standards regarding menues that a player need to support?

    Options to create Image Layout File CUE, DVD, MDS etc - would that tell a story about what is there?

    I also tried creating ISO image on hdd, and burn later with Windows Image Burner or what they called it.

    You just have to try tools and see what you end up with working well.

    Demuxing as you suggest might be the way to start doing that.
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  8. Rancid User ron spencer's Avatar
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    I have never experienced any difference with burned vs pressed. I have used DVDLab for authoring. No difference at all.
    'Do I look absolutely divine and regal, and yet at the same time very pretty and rather accessible?' - Queenie
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    Originally Posted by ron spencer View Post
    I have never experienced any difference with burned vs pressed. I have used DVDLab for authoring. No difference at all.
    Good to know, thank you.
    Then I know I can get rid of this behavior.

    DVDLab, last version 2005 - does it have templates at all for HD or 4K?

    I saw a post at Adobe Premiere Elements forum about a guy that had problem with a template, in PRE, that got pixelated when he rendered it all.
    I just want simple menu stuff, that is not so sensitive to resolution.

    I also saw about NewBlue effects that they had a collection that now was HD - which is easy to forget about. You use an effect that is there, but reduce quality of what you render.

    That editors are still into normal DVD resolutions, and not all is HD, FHD or 4K yet.
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  10. DVD doesn't support HD or UHD. DVD also doesn't support h.264 or h.265. That's why tools for making DVDs don't support those resolutions.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    DVD doesn't support HD or UHD. DVD also doesn't support h.264 or h.265. That's why tools for making DVDs don't support those resolutions.
    You can create HD video and burn to AVCHD DVD, and takes about 20 minutes of video.
    So as long as you are in this timeframe, you can stay on DVD as media. So videos on upload sites like youtube and vimeo it is probably sufficient.
    But it takes BD player to play these DVDs.

    So in a modern editor it is vital that effects, transitions and it all really support this - or you reduce quality most likely.
    Depending on type of effect then obviosly.

    Some tutorials claim that you should turn off things in video camera, like sharpening and things. Common in DSLRs camera process a bit.
    So then you have your video in editor - and to sharpening stuff there. That is how Basic Filmmaker explained it all, how he do it in Premiere Pro wiith unsharpen mask, or what is was called.
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  12. Originally Posted by larioso View Post
    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    DVD doesn't support HD or UHD. DVD also doesn't support h.264 or h.265. That's why tools for making DVDs don't support those resolutions.
    You can create HD video and burn to AVCHD DVD
    And there's a reason DVD-Lab isn't called AVCHD DVD-Lab.

    Originally Posted by larioso View Post
    So in a modern editor it is vital that effects, transitions and it all really support this
    DVD-Lab isn't modern. It hasn't been updated in 12 years.
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  13. Member DB83's Avatar
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    It might help your cause if you were state what tools/software you are using to create these AVCHD disks.

    And it is positively wrong to label these as 'DVD'.

    Also state your burning software and the brand of media you are burning to.

    I would agree with earlier comments about chapter points on I-frames but that comment did apply to dvds and you are not creating these now.
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  14. Rancid User ron spencer's Avatar
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    If you are using HD video, try multiavchd. I have used it without any issues with chapter freezing. Have you tried different media?
    'Do I look absolutely divine and regal, and yet at the same time very pretty and rather accessible?' - Queenie
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    It might help your cause if you were state what tools/software you are using to create these AVCHD disks.

    And it is positively wrong to label these as 'DVD'.

    Also state your burning software and the brand of media you are burning to.

    I would agree with earlier comments about chapter points on I-frames but that comment did apply to dvds and you are not creating these now.
    You are probably right about term DVD - that would be MPEG-2, I guess.

    Just figured navigation were done in a similar way.

    I burned to both DVD RW and SDHC class 10 80 MB/s cards - and delay is there, at least 2s.
    Both played on a Panasonic BD player.
    I have played a BD disc that came with a game - and chapter changes are below 1/2s.

    But still to make a menu-version of these to see if that is all that is missing.
    If having direct links to a chapter in a menu, that can also be used by player navigation next/previous chapter is my assumption, and the solution as such.
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    Originally Posted by ron spencer View Post
    If you are using HD video, try multiavchd. I have used it without any issues with chapter freezing. Have you tried different media?
    Yes, DVD RW, SDHC and USB drives.
    That's why I got the Panasonic player that had all these, and internet as well.

    So maybe it's all to do with that I removed menus, since playing on Xbox first it did not recognize any navigation in menues, just chapter next/previous.

    Since I got PowerDirector 15, I've only used that so far, about a month.
    But will try Premiere Elements 15 as well as Nero Video 2017, which I have license for as well.

    So all so far are tests, to learn best way to do things and get best quality as well.
    If to use stills in original resolution from DSLR camera, or downsize to same as video first before entering editor.
    And got stuck on this chapter changes, trying to jump in an instant to compare quality of stills rendered.
    And look at general rendering quality differences of different editors.

    I've got two Canon DSLR, and they do H264 in either MOV or MP4 containers.
    But am a beginner on this video thingy, been hobby musician all my life and aim to make music to film eventually.

    Maybe way to go is using NLE for putting videos in a state ready to make media, and then use something like your suggestion to assemble with menu in a separate tool. Thanks for you suggestion.
    Last edited by larioso; 7th Feb 2017 at 00:45.
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  17. Originally Posted by larioso View Post

    So maybe it's all to do with that I removed menus, since playing on Xbox first it did not recognize any navigation in menues, just chapter next/previous.
    You removed the DVD menus? How? By just deleting them? Okay, now do as I suggested earlier and demux followed by reauthoring using Muxman. If you can't use PGCDemux, then open all the VOBs at once in DGIndex followed by Save Project and Demux Video. That will give you the audio and video (but no chapters) and a D2V project file you can delete. Then reauthor using Muxman.

    If you can't use PGCDemux because you messed up the DVD, you might be able to get the chapters from Chapter Extractor. You'll want them in frame number format for use in Muxman
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    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    Originally Posted by larioso View Post

    So maybe it's all to do with that I removed menus, since playing on Xbox first it did not recognize any navigation in menues, just chapter next/previous.
    You removed the DVD menus? How? By just deleting them? Okay, now do as I suggested earlier and demux followed by reauthoring using Muxman. If you can't use PGCDemux, then open all the VOBs at once in DGIndex followed by Save Project and Demux Video. That will give you the audio and video (but no chapters) and a D2V project file you can delete. Then reauthor using Muxman.
    Thanks again.
    When about to create disc(there are editing, produce, create disc tabs in Powerdirector) you can select No Menues.
    What videos you put there for disc is just concatenated, and first one just starts when loading.
    But did not think about that player loose a good reference to every chapter when disc loads.

    I've downloaded all software you mentioned, but will test first if putting menues in place again that maybe chapter navigation becomes instant.
    Finally when uploading stuff to Vimeo it will not be any menues anyway, this now is just to evaluate how to do things and with what tool.

    The all-in-one approach in many prosumer editors is really convenient though. So unless they fail I will use them first hand.
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  19. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Having a menu will not make any difference. The delay seems to be seek response as the next part of the media is read. Probably, as reported, due to chapter points not on I-frames

    Since the same issue appears on different types of media, the quality of the actual disks can also, generally be discounted although good quality DVD media is often better.

    I would try a different authoring package atleast for a dvd such as avstodvd. Try both chapters at defined intervals or set from within the program. Report back with your results.
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  20. Keep in mind that Blu-ray h.264 allows for longer GOPs than DVD. Up to 1 second.
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    Hi again
    Did some tests today with menu, but that does not matter. Even going from menu to a chapter it takes about 1/4 of the time to play to that location anyway.
    Same thing as with chapter next or previous.

    So tested with Nero Video, and no problem at all - in an instant you are on the next chapter.

    So filed a ticket with Cyberlink for PowerDirector, some information that player normally use to directly find a spot in video is missing as I see it.

    Thanks everybody for now, and I will look into your suggestions for other tools to use as a backup until PD possibly is fixed.

    And note that depending on how long between a chapter, delay is different. So it varies between 4-15s even having two 30s videoclips, and five sections with time lapse stills each between 5-10s long. So nothing with I-frames, or larger GOPS as far as I can tell from discoveries above. But thanks anyway.
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  22. Rancid User ron spencer's Avatar
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    Well...it is good to know that it is a software problem so you don't pull all you hair out!
    'Do I look absolutely divine and regal, and yet at the same time very pretty and rather accessible?' - Queenie
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  23. Member
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    Originally Posted by ron spencer View Post
    Well...it is good to know that it is a software problem so you don't pull all you hair out!
    How true.

    well, I almost did anyway - over all crap DVD RW I had, I throwed away more than 10 discs this afternoon until one worked.
    Wanted as an alternative to SDHC card to see if different.
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