1920x1080 - is it at all relevant if NTSC or PAL nowadays?

[larioso]

Hi
Former broadcast formats for television have different specs for number of lines and resolution.

But now this is standarized to higher degree - does it matter whether doing NTSC or PAL anymore?

Is there any difference in color depth or anything at all regarding quality?

The cameras I have only suggest using 60/30/24 or 50/25 as framerate, only difference like that that I can see from specs.

I expect only make film and music for Vimeo or similar service.

I watched some tuts from TheBasicFilmMaker, and he said he use NTSC and 1920x1080p and 24 fps for upload.
Looking in Xbox and Vimeo app - only 720p is available but looks stunning to me.
But purely photage in studio and well controlled light conditions.

I will make tests, but being in europe I am kind of set for PAL by tradition, but wonder if this is significant anymore?

Thanks.
Best regards

[ndjamena]

PAL and NTSC had different interpretations of rec.601. However they both use the same rec.709 for HD.

[brassplyer]

Looking in Xbox and Vimeo app - only 720p is available but looks stunning to me.

As of the last I paid attention, you had to have a paid subscription to Vimeo to have your videos process as 1080.

[larioso]

PAL and NTSC had different interpretations of rec.601. However they both use the same rec.709 for HD.

Thanks.

Is that to do with color format, or?
And RGB is another such format?

I have a vague memory that Xbox 360 and PS3 had such choices for hdmi out.

I plan to use only 1920x1080 and my most recent camera only allow that or 1280x720, and final films will probably have one of those too.

[larioso]

Looking in Xbox and Vimeo app - only 720p is available but looks stunning to me.

As of the last I paid attention, you had to have a paid subscription to Vimeo to have your videos process as 1080.

Thanks, I will get a Plus subscription which will cover my needs, I think.
The last version of Vimeo app for Xbox One said to have a login, but never got that working so far.

I think Vimeo specs says that watching should not be limitied in bandwidth with their player.
But also don't think the Vimeo app is their own player, made by somebody else.

https://vimeo.com/upgrade

Thanks for sharing that info, I will have to look into that.

[wentill]

It's interesting that I've been irregularly googling an answer for that question for months now and I've never found a statement from some one experienced that says "it's true it does not matter whatsoever". I as an amateur believe that when you make videos only for online streaming in FullHD it is not important and you can use both. The only advantage of NTSC is slightly higher framerate I would say.

[wentill]

http://learn.corel.com/blog/ntsc-vs-pal-what-are-they-and-which-to-use/

[KarMa]

Should point out that NTSC and PAL don't really exist anymore in the world, as far as new content being produced or broadcasted. Of course there are minor exceptions to my generalization but for the average person reading on this forum it's true. Anymore it only lives on when capturing dead formats like VHS or Laserdisc, but even then it's no longer analog after capture.

Former PAL countries moved on to DVB while many former NTSC countries moved on to ATSC, and I think all digital broadcast TV around the world on satellite is DVB. However the effects of NTSC and PAL are still will us today, with watching DVB (former PAL countries) digital tv at 25fps for 1080i (maybe 50fps for 720p/576 idk) . And former NTSC countries watching 1080i in 29.970fps and 720p channels at 59.94fps, which is in keeping with color NTSC frame rate of 30000/1001 or a field rate of 60000/1001 (59.94 fields per second). I also think both DVB and ATSC have support for both 29.97fps and 25fps content but I've yet to hear of a TV channel regularly switching their frame rate for different content.

The frame rates of NTSC and PAL were embedded in the AC power systems of the countries. With 60hz countries using NTSC and 50hz countries using PAL or SECAM (for the most part). But now that we no longer watch AC driven CRT TVs but instead watch LCD TVs driven by DC power, these rigid frame rate barriers are not really there anymore. But we still stick will 25fps and 29.97fps I guess for backward compatibility, familiarity, and existing infrastructure. I mean, black and white NTSC was originally 60 fields per second but they changed it to 59.94 (60000/1001) to reduce interference between the newly added color signal and the audio. This frame rate was a band-aid to a problem that we don't have anymore on digital ATSC, yet the weird frame rate remains.

On a side note. When uploading SD PAL resolution videos to youtube (576p), they force you to downscale to 480p which is SD NTSC resolution. Thankfully they let you keep the 25fps. But still.

[larioso]

Interesting read - thanks wentill and KarMa.

What I have seen is it only gamers that are upset unless framrate is 60 fps or more, and is about how fast you get response on you own actions.
Otherwise, watching video - even 24 fps seems enough for a good experience.

My dvd players output 50 Hz, Xbox 360 can be set 50/60, Xbox One only 60 Hz what I have seen of settings.

On color space I had a good read here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YUV

[JVRaines]

The rate of 24 fps comes from the motion picture industry. It was the minimum speed that supported sound-on-film. They would have used a lower rate if they could have, just to save money. You still have a bunch of people who think their video won't seem legit unless it's at the jerky old 24 fps, but I predict that will change as viewers grow more accustomed to high frame rates and resolutions.

[usually_quiet]

Interesting read - thanks wentill and KarMa.

What I have seen is it only gamers that are upset unless framrate is 60 fps or more, and is about how fast you get response on you own actions.
Otherwise, watching video - even 24 fps seems enough for a good experience.

My dvd players output 50 Hz, Xbox 360 can be set 50/60, Xbox One only 60 Hz what I have seen of settings.

On color space I had a good read here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YUV

Even in the digital era, problems with refresh rate/frame rate incompatibility persist in N. America, particularly for those with older LCD TVs and older DVD and Blu-ray players. Many N. American LCD TVs don't accept 50Hz signals over HDMI. (I have two like that, one 2011 LG and one 2012 Samsung.) Some DVD players and Blu-ray players reject PAL DVDs and some Blu-ray players reject authored Blu-ray with 1080i25 or 720p50 video, even if the discs are "all region" or "region free".

I don't know for certain about game consoles, but would expect some incompatibility with games produced for PAL/DVB countries, and no 50Hz option for HDMI output, particularly on the older models.

[larioso]

Even in the digital era, problems with refresh rate/frame rate incompatibility persist in N. America, particularly for those with older LCD TVs and older DVD and Blu-ray players. Many N. American LCD TVs don't accept 50Hz signals over HDMI. (I have two like that, one 2011 LG and one 2012 Samsung.) Some DVD players and Blu-ray players reject PAL DVDs and some Blu-ray players reject authored Blu-ray with 1080i25 or 720p50 video, even if the discs are "all region" or "region free".

I don't know for certain about game consoles, but would expect some incompatibility with games produced for PAL/DVB countries, and no 50Hz option for HDMI output, particularly on the older models.

Many thanks.
I think we can forget about disk distribution - it will be downloaded as far as I have planned.

I must check what Vimeo does to uploaded stuff - if they provide conversions in all formats you refer to.
I must also buy upgrade on account to get some kind of priority in conversions.

The Basic Filmmaker channel use 1920x1080p 24 fps NTSC H264 as he put it in an episode and use Premiere Pro and just upload it.
I guess he targets any part of the world with his many hundreds of episodes.
http://www.thebasicfilmmaker.com/

I think he has channels on both Vimeo and youtube. I don't think every episode is on Vimeo though, if to go by what Xbox app for Vimeo reveals.

Most monitors on PC I have used run at 60 Hz.
Don't know about other media apps for pads and smartphones.

So guessing to target a wide audience places like Vimeo provide any format.

[larioso]

The rate of 24 fps comes from the motion picture industry. It was the minimum speed that supported sound-on-film. They would have used a lower rate if they could have, just to save money. You still have a bunch of people who think their video won't seem legit unless it's at the jerky old 24 fps, but I predict that will change as viewers grow more accustomed to high frame rates and resolutions.

Thank you.

Don't know what difficulties there are for players to convert framerates?

I'm thinking of all the series I watch on DVD - and looking at end texts and how non-fluent they are.
There are irregular bumps every other second looking at that.

And this is from series from UK or US - which are 50 Hz and 60 Hz countries.

I can understand older series, digitally remastered from film - but even more modern productions.
I have yet to see a single one that has all fluent ending texts flowing up showing all credits for productions and such.

Are these things framerate conversion problems?

Thanks.

[jagabo]

Don't know what difficulties there are for players to convert framerates?

In this day and age of digital video it's not difficult at all. The players just duplicate or decimate frames. Of course, this leads to judder (eg. 3:2 duplicates for 24 to 60 fps) and the inherent jerkiness and flicker of 24 fps film.

[usually_quiet]

Thank you.

Don't know what difficulties there are for players to convert framerates?

I'm thinking of all the series I watch on DVD - and looking at end texts and how non-fluent they are.
There are irregular bumps every other second looking at that.

And this is from series from UK or US - which are 50 Hz and 60 Hz countries.

I can understand older series, digitally remastered from film - but even more modern productions.
I have yet to see a single one that has all fluent ending texts flowing up showing all credits for productions and such.

Are these things framerate conversion problems?

Thanks.

The poorly rendered text in credits is likely related to de-interlacing as well as frame rate. DVD video is often output as interlaced, even when the video is encoded at 480p23.975.

[hello_hello]

I'm thinking of all the series I watch on DVD - and looking at end texts and how non-fluent they are.
There are irregular bumps every other second looking at that.

And this is from series from UK or US - which are 50 Hz and 60 Hz countries.

I can understand older series, digitally remastered from film - but even more modern productions.
I have yet to see a single one that has all fluent ending texts flowing up showing all credits for productions and such.

Are these things framerate conversion problems?

Thanks.

I don't know about irregular bumps every other second, although there's probably a sample and hold effect involved, maybe combined with a frame rate/refresh rate mismatch.

How do these credits look? They're progressive. I made them myself (well, re-encoding from a DVD). Stepping through them one frame at a time they seem to move at a constant pace. Playing them, they'll probably look like some form of crap at 24fps, 25fps and even 30fsp. They're currently 25fps.

They don't start scrolling for a couple of seconds.

[larioso]

I don't know about irregular bumps every other second, although there's probably a sample and hold effect involved, maybe combined with a frame rate/refresh rate mismatch.

How do these credits look? They're progressive. I made them myself (well, re-encoding from a DVD). Stepping through them one frame at a time they seem to move at a constant pace. Playing them, they'll probably look like some form of crap at 24fps, 25fps and even 30fsp. They're currently 25fps.

They don't start scrolling for a couple of seconds.

I will have a look at your clip, thanks.

With a bump, I mean they slide upwards, but every second or two, it suddenly bumps down a bit to continue up again.
Don't notice when in film, just after texts where it become obvious.

Will test with my own stuff eventually, but will also run on my Xbox on the same monitor running 60 Hz mode instead of 50 Hz as dvd players do.

So it could be monitors own handling over hdmi:
- I can do that framerate

and has it's own algo, don't know.

Not sure about negotiations between player and monitor - what is due to player or monitor, really.

Like player has this setting for doing upscaling, and monitor tells what resolution and framerate monitor supports - and player do it's thing, since I set it to upscale.
Otherwise I suppose monitor adapts to many formats arriving over hdmi, and do it's own thing.

Gaming consoles like PS4 and Xbox One S recently had firmware to do upscaling to 4K monitors - and suppose games did their thing 1080p all the time, and monitors own algos did upscaling before that. And quality could also differ, which part do it better and has processing power enough to do better algo.

[jagabo]

Here's hello_hello's credits at 50 Hz and 60 Hz for comparison.

[larioso]

The first one 24.97 fps is smooth all the way looking on pc with MPCHC.
The 50 Hz is also smooth.
The 60 Hz has small back bumps ever other second, but not as obvious as the ones I am thinking of - which half a text row almost. This was tiny in comparison.

Don't know if monitor refresh rate affect anything, but is set to 60 Hz which contradicts expectations a bit - if same as monitor might be better smoother looking.
But my thinking might be off there.

But fps seems to be a part of explanation.

[jagabo]

Your results indicate your monitor is running at 50 Hz, not 60 Hz.

[larioso]

Your results indicate your monitor is running at 50 Hz, not 60 Hz.

It could be reality is different than setting says.

I will try those mkv files on a thumbdrive and see if I play back on my 47" monitor, which also states what sync is when starting up.
PC also has a hdmi out, as Xbox 360 and Xbox One.