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  1. Member
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    Hi
    In short I wonder if you can remedy poor output quality by buying better codec packs?

    Or is it as much dependent on editor software itself?

    Major differences in quality of effects and transitions - one editor compared to the other?

    I will shoot video in PAL full hd 1920x1080, possibly 25 or 23.98 fps and camera do in MOV/H264 or MP4/MPEG-4 AVC or how you spec it.
    I will mix with time-lapse video in MOV/Canon All-I and stills put into editor in 16-bit TIFF 16:9.

    And video output in full hd and possibly in DVD as well.

    Thanks.
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    It's in the processing, the software, the methods used, and your knowledge of formats and how not use codecs.
    What software are you you using?
    For example, how many times do you re-encode/re-render your master video? Are you aware that the formats you're shooting are not designed for editing and multiple re-rendering?
    For another example, you're shooting full HD/h.264 with the intention of outputting something entirely different. This means resizing in software that doesn't do it very well, which also means switching codecs and another lossy re-encode, and several other steps that ensure quality loss. Better do some research first:
    https://www.videohelp.com/dvd#tech
    https://www.videohelp.com/hd#tech
    - My sister Ann's brother
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    Thanks.
    I plan to reencode once - video from camera in full hd dropped into editor which remains full hd - and only if doing compatible for normal dvd-player will frame size change.
    The full hd will encode to AVCHD and possibly burned to dvd for playback or just upload to Vimeo or something.
    I saw one guy doing tutorials, and he used Premiere Pro and H264 as output and just uploaded to youtube or vimeo.

    I know so little so really obliged for any input or where to read up on the subject.
    AVCHD that is a container like MOV or MP4, or?
    And it can contain H264 frames each one of those?

    I've got a Canon 100D and a 80D and not 100% sure I understand the output.
    I think frames are H264 in either case, and for 100D in MOV container, and in 80D in MP4 container, or MPEG-4 AVC into MOV container.
    80D can also shoot in MOV container with what they all ALL-I which is all keyframes compressed more suitable for editing, and you can cut at any frame that way.
    But not sure how significant this is compared to being able to cut just 1s resolution for a full GOP?

    From 80D manual:
    "
    Recording format: MOV/MP4
    Movie: MPEG-4 AVC/H.264
    Audio: MOV-Linear PCM MP4 AAC
    "

    MP4 can do 60 fps, so to make some slo mo that is needed sometimes. But otherwise I could do with MOV and if that is MPEG-4 AVC - don't know how to read that spec?

    Currently I bought Premiere Elements 15 and Nero Video 2017. But I like working in Nero better, but also saw this Best of test where quality of video is C on Nero and A on Premiere.
    http://www.toptenreviews.com/software/multimedia/best-video-editing-software/

    But not sure if that is about various mobile phone formats or the ones I will work in.

    A little bit why I started this thread and wondered about if you can upgrade with better codecs and use Nero?

    Much obliged to any clarifications on this....
    Best regards
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    AVC and h.264 are two different names for the same codec. AVCHD is a version of AVC developed by Panasonic and Sony. MOV and MP4 are containers and it doesn't really matter which one you use. Keep your audio in linear PCM (uncompressed) format until you render your final video, at which point it is standard to encode it as AAC in an MP4 container.
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    Thanks, yes, I figured I mixed some things up with all these short names.

    I had a conversation with one developer, not of video, but hdr software - and he referred to using QT libraries to decode raw image files etc.

    Are there such info about editors what libraries they use, and what quality could be expected?

    I will obviously have to experiment with moving camera video files directly to players, and then things that went through editors - and compare and such.
    But if one can shorten process to find a good quality outcome without going through every editors there is, will be helpful.

    The only HD player I have right now is Xbox One - and that is buggy as hell. Some videos simply shut down Xbox, others just play back wrong speed etc. The mediaplayer app can play it back correctly, but blu-ray app plays back double speed.
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  6. Mod Neophyte Super Moderator redwudz's Avatar
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    I use AVIDemux for converting my MOV videos to a more useful format and editing and appending the videos together. No ideas about Xbox.
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    Thanks.
    Just afraid that every extra step might introduce some resampling or something, degrading content.
    Both Premiere and Nero has this preserving of clips as long as no editing is done, or an effect used on them.

    When Xbox shut down, it was at the end, where I think it goes to start again in a loop kind of. So MediaPlayer app seems to play it right.
    Don't know, have to experiment if the ending time-lapse still images in there, playing three frames each does not end properly or similar.
    A lot of trial and error this.

    Files played just fine on pc players like mpchc.
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  8. Member brassplyer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by larioso View Post
    Currently I bought Premiere Elements 15 and Nero Video 2017. But I like working in Nero better, but also saw this Best of test where quality of video is C on Nero and A on Premiere.
    http://www.toptenreviews.com/software/multimedia/best-video-editing-software/

    But not sure if that is about various mobile phone formats or the ones I will work in.
    Learning to steer the apps you're using is your first priority above the codec. Miss one parameter that's needed to be set a certain way and your project can get borked. For example on Vegas Pro you have to make sure the properties of the video in the timeline are set correctly and that the project properties match.

    FYI from what I've read about TopTenReviews it's a shill for advertisers masquerading as a review site. My understanding is any company's product seen there has paid to be on the site.
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    Originally Posted by brassplyer View Post
    Learning to steer the apps you're using is your first priority above the codec. Miss one parameter that's needed to be set a certain way and your project can get borked. For example on Vegas Pro you have to make sure the properties of the video in the timeline are set correctly and that the project properties match.

    FYI from what I've read about TopTenReviews it's a shill for advertisers masquerading as a review site. My understanding is any company's product seen there has paid to be on the site.
    Thanks.
    Maybe one should think about if editor is widely spread and also having separate 3rd party books to master them, like you mention.
    I was a hobby musician all my life, and now retired aim to make music full time - and also wanted to make music to film and came into this with video stuff the backdoor kind of, making own films.

    So don't mind spending some more money if it really gives me control of parameters needed - but have to learn what those parameters are.
    Spend more time getting excellent photage and minimum of after effects, like reasoning about audio - crap in, crap out.

    But looking at tutorials, at least three of youtube channels, all reduce settings in camera, removing sharpness and contrast getting rather plain photage out from camera. And then using editor to get it where they want - but this must mean that original video clips are rendered again - is my assumption.

    And if not having the top notch software one might be in trouble here?

    Problem with the bigger versions of Premiere for me is subscription model, which becomes really expensive if not using it every day. A bit stressful not using and knowing you rent it. And had some crashes in Premiere Elements 15 - but nothing major, but am curious to see when the next fix comes for it - are Adobe up to maintaining their stuff.
    Problem with Vegas for me is that Magix bought it from Sony - and had problems with Magix maintenance of their software like Samplitude. I'm not getting anything Magix again.
    Avid is also strange in their sudden changes of policies, like for MediaComposer and ProTools - I don't trust them. And neither do investors on stockmarket it seems.

    So will experiment with Premiere Elements and Nero Video for a while - but to learn what I need mostly. Maybe it will be good enough too. Nero have been all stable for me, but again have to evaluate final result if not using smart encoding and clips are rendered again.

    Maybe look at Corel - what they are up to as well and if there are any books written to master it.
    Used a lot of Corel software and it's good experience. I did manuals in Corel Ventura, broschures in Designer(Corel bought Micrografx).

    So any real good books - on any software - explaining the most important aspects of video editors - are most welcome.

    Not only - do this, do that - but giving some in depth explaining why etc.
    I can always read the book and not using the software if I learn something of great value.

    Either way, Happy New Year to you and thanks for input so far.
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  10. Member brassplyer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by larioso View Post
    And if not having the top notch software one might be in trouble here?
    I don't know about "top notch". You can get great results using something like Vegas Pro and I'm sure others - but you have to learn what they can do. And you're likely not going to be just using one app. It's pretty much a given that you'll need to have Audio editing software as well.

    There are great fee apps out there like Virtualdub and AviSynth that are very powerful, but there's a lot to learn. I think you could devote the rest of your life to learning to use Avisynth.

    I'm basically in the same boat as you - learning things. A/V tech is very deep.

    There are endless tutorials on Youtube. For example.

    https://youtu.be/QbBR7IsBbZ8
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    Originally Posted by brassplyer View Post
    Originally Posted by larioso View Post
    And if not having the top notch software one might be in trouble here?
    I don't know about "top notch". You can get great results using something like Vegas Pro and I'm sure others - but you have to learn what they can do. And you're likely not going to be just using one app. It's pretty much a given that you'll need to have Audio editing software as well.

    There are great fee apps out there like Virtualdub and AviSynth that are very powerful, but there's a lot to learn. I think you could devote the rest of your life to learning to use Avisynth.

    I'm basically in the same boat as you - learning things. A/V tech is very deep.

    There are endless tutorials on Youtube. For example.

    https://youtu.be/QbBR7IsBbZ8
    Thank you.
    I've got plenty music gear and daws as well, that was the origin of it all for me - it's been a lifelong interest.
    Making music to film is very different process, and find it interesting to dwelve into. Just going from an emotion and what happends in pictures. Very different from writing songs.

    Right now on video, I look at Pinnacle Studio - a bit because I found a 3rd party 700 pages guide book too it as well, it probably means widely spread.


    Your bound to pick up something good from that.

    Books are really cheap way to move forward. A lot of good videotuts as well, but when writing a book you really think things through.
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    Originally Posted by redwudz View Post
    I use AVIDemux for converting my MOV videos to a more useful format and editing and appending the videos together. No ideas about Xbox.
    If I understand you right - you convert to uncompressed AVI or something - and then do all in video editors and render to compressed H264 or so in the end?
    So you get only one re-encoding once getting it into editors.

    Or is this far too hard to handle in computer with maybe a couple of video tracks?

    I remember using ScreenCorder to make tutorials which made AVI first. But that was in the 90's with computers nothing near todays.

    In daws you work uncompressed all the way, until possibly make an mp3 at the end.
    I guess you need to care more how you do with video - since it is compressed to start with.
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  13. Member brassplyer's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=larioso;2472108]
    Originally Posted by brassplyer View Post
    Right now on video, I look at Pinnacle Studio - a bit because I found a 3rd party 700 pages guide book too it as well, it probably means widely spread.
    Well....I don't know what's going on with Pinnacle these days, the last time I wrestled with Pinnacle Studio it was buggy and tech support was pathetic. Their standard response, if you actually got a response was "uninstall and reinstall Pinnacle". Once I tried Vegas I never looked back. Different universe of functionality. The version of Vegas Pro I got is far more stable and is much more powerful. As many audio/video tracks as your machine can handle, does multi-camera editing. The audio interface has a lot of the same elements as SoundForge - supports VST plugins among other things. In fact you can export the audio track to SoundForge and work on it there. Pinnacle would do 2 video tracks if you got the fancy version and had a basic 10-band equalizer as about the extent of the available audio processing.

    I'm sure the latest versions have more functionality but I don't see any reason I'd ever pay money for a Pinnacle Product again.
    Last edited by brassplyer; 31st Dec 2016 at 01:57.
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    [QUOTE=brassplyer;2472112]
    Originally Posted by larioso View Post
    Originally Posted by brassplyer View Post
    Right now on video, I look at Pinnacle Studio - a bit because I found a 3rd party 700 pages guide book too it as well, it probably means widely spread.
    Well....I don't know what's going on with Pinnacle these days, the last time I wrestled with Pinnacle Studio it was buggy and tech support was pathetic. Their standard response, if you actually got a response was "uninstall and reinstall Pinnacle". Once I tried Vegas I never looked back. Different universe of functionality. The version of Vegas Pro I got is far more stable and is much more powerful. As many audio/video tracks as your machine can handle, does multi-camera editing. The audio interface has a lot of the same elements as SoundForge - supports VST plugins among other things. In fact you can export the audio track to SoundForge and work on it there. Pinnacle would do 2 video tracks if you got the fancy version and had a basic 10-band equalizer as about the extent of the available audio processing.

    I'm sure the latest versions have more functionality but I don't see any reason I'd ever pay money for a Pinnacle Product again.
    Thank you, I see your point, I absolutely hate unstable stuff and evasive support on top of that.

    The bad part that is the case with Magix as well, their support though is good, but the time to fix bugs - not going there either.
    Maybe thanks to Sony, it is pretty stable to start with when Magix bought it.
    I use Independence sampler, Magix bought from Yellowtools, and it's always been excellent - so maybe Vegas is worth a look.

    I use daws so much, and Cubase Pro 9 is my main daw - just waiting for them to replace video engine since current one needs quicktime.
    So will do music stuff there, and possibly do simple things with recorded audio with video only in video editor.

    Some features in Pinnacle interested me, like picking frames to do animations. Some things I plan to do will be animations, and with time-lapse video feature in camera, and will have to set a fixed interval where I can move things around a bit, but also expect to fail and my hands or something else will be in the video. But you can use still images as well making a video from that.

    I have to run trial for a month and see about stability. It's the same with daws, that depending on how advanced features you use you might get into trouble. So one person can be ok, and for another it crashes all the time.
    Last edited by larioso; 31st Dec 2016 at 03:02.
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  15. Member brassplyer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by larioso View Post
    Some features in Pinnacle interested me, like picking frames to do animations. Some things I plan to do will be animations, and with time-lapse video feature in camera, and will have to set a fixed interval where I can move things around a bit, but also expect to fail and my hands or something else will be in the video. But you can use still images as well making a video from that.

    I have to run trial for a month and see about stability. It's the same with daws, that depending on how advanced features you use you might get into trouble. So one person can be ok, and for another it crashes all the time.
    Just to check, are you using one drive for everything or do you put files you're editing on a separate drive(s)? At minimum you should have a second drive. If doing multi-camera editing - i.e. multiple views of the same event you need a separate drive for each video track, at least when using hard drives. The more load you can take off the C: drive the better. Not sure if it's a different story with solid state drives. But I would guess that even with SSD's things will run smoother with multiple drives.
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    Originally Posted by brassplyer View Post
    Just to check, are you using one drive for everything or do you put files you're editing on a separate drive(s)? At minimum you should have a second drive. If doing multi-camera editing - i.e. multiple views of the same event you need a separate drive for each video track, at least when using hard drives. The more load you can take off the C: drive the better. Not sure if it's a different story with solid state drives. But I would guess that even with SSD's things will run smoother with multiple drives.
    Thanks a lot. Yes, I do have a second hdd drive, where media is kept. If for nothing else for space.

    I wonder if it's possible to to do full hd AVI uncompressed, or is that too much to ask?
    I've got 16G ram, but don't know how far that works.

    At least Premiere is 64-bit of what I got now. Nero is 32-bit so not so much memory available to process there.

    But for now I will make a field test and see what quality becomes with the H264 that comes from camera - in PRE15 and Nero and compare.
    Can I notice any difference like Premiere A-rated, and Nero C-rated - will see.

    I looked through manual a bit today for Pinnacle, and I have never seen such a large section on troubleshooting in a manual.
    Just about everything should be fixed by:
    a) reboot computer
    b) remove background processes, with some unnamed software they claim exist.
    c) reinstall windows if not the above works.

    Nowhere do they suggest it could be anything wrong with their software.
    I think I will stay away from those folks.

    Some common things like look for updates of drivers etc are reasonable and good sense though.
    And helping people structure if happening at startup, or after working and doing certain stuff - that all makes sense too.

    I put a ticket to Corel, now owning Pinncacle, and ask about bug reports and stuff - will see what they say.
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