Flexible recording and dual layer disks

[JohnR]

With Flexible recording, If I insert a DL disk and specify the time duration, will my Panasonic EZ485v detect that the disk has more empty space (than a regular 4.7 GB disk) and then give me a higher quality recording and fill up the disk, or do I need to specify in some way that there is a DL disk and I want it completely filled for best possible quality?

[johnmeyer]

What happens if you try it? If you haven't tried it, why haven't you done so? It seems like it would be an easy test.

[JohnR]

Didn't try it because I can't find any rewritable DL disks. But if I don't finalize the DL disk, can I start all over even though it wouldn't be a RW disk? Can't imagine that once you record something, it could be used again if it's not RW. I'm used to a Toshiba that doesn't even have Flexible recording, but I now have the Panasonic (used) so I'm still learning it..

[johnmeyer]

Dual layer rewriteable don't exist. However you can purchase Dual layer discs for about $1, so the test doesn't cost much: far less than one cup of coffee.

[JohnR]

I'll try it then, see what happens. Thanks for the suggestion.

[LMotlow]

With Flexible recording, If I insert a DL disk and specify the time duration, will my Panasonic EZ485v detect that the disk has more empty space (than a regular 4.7 GB disk) and then give me a higher quality recording and fill up the disk, or do I need to specify in some way that there is a DL disk and I want it completely filled for best possible quality?

Say, didn't you see the user guide? Page 24:



XP is best quality, SP is very good quality.
LP is low quality, a good VCR can do better.
A disc filled with EP and FR will be crap.
ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/dvdrecorder/om/dmr-ez48_mul_om.pdf

[orsetto]

It should detect the higher DL capacity and adjust FR accordingly. Just keep in mind, dual-layer discs and Panasonic recorders are generally considered a shotgun marriage. They work together grudgingly if you insist, but they don't like it much. Combine this with the fact dual-layer recordable dvd media is mostly crap to begin with, and you have a setup thats less than ideal. Consumers get entranced with the idea of using DL blank media in DVD recorders for extra recording time, but unfortunately neither the recorder mfrs nor the media mfrs were ever interested in making the concept actually work. DL media is the dvd stepchild optimized for use in computers with versatile and "intelligent" burning software: over the history of DVD recorders, few could use it (and even fewer could use it well).

Panasonic excels over other recorder brands in some respects, but DL handling is not one of them. The big "gotcha" with DL is that only one brand and one type of blank DL disc is good quality: Verbatim AZO DVD+R DL. All other DL media is sketchy: it may burn well, it may not, it may be durable, it may not. Trouble is, Panasonic recorders don't like the +R version of DL, they much prefer -R, but Verbatim does not make -R DL. No top-tier brands made -R DL aside from TY, which is hard to find and ridiculously expensive.

Panasonic will record to +DL well enough for simple straight-thru playback, but speed search and other playback options are degraded compared to -R. If you want to keep anything permanently, I'd advise forgetting DL and using top-quality single layer -R instead. If the higher capacity of DL is absolutely required for a recording you want to keep, stick to Verbatim +R DL (bought via web dealers, it doesn't cost all that much more than crap brands like Ritek).

[JohnR]

Well, I gave it a try with a Verbatim DVD+R DL and the the disk filled up with 8.5 GB data, leaving only a small unrecorded section. Now I know. So that's very good. But what I also discovered was that the quality of the recording was really less than what I was expecting.

So I have a fair amount of experimenting to do in order to find the cause of the mid-level quality. After your helpful note, LMotlow, I think some of the factors you mentioned are in operation here.

But I'm also wondering about the source (Amazon Fire-Stick). Also wondering about the device I have to use to get the Amazon HDMI signal into the DVD recorder inputs, an inexpensive MINI HDMI to AV converter box and, of course the RCA cables to route the signal to the DVD recorder. There's a lot of opportunities for signal degradation here.

I'll invest in high-quality RCA cables (maybe gold-plated), place some Tweek on the physical RCA connections and research for a better converter box (if there even IS anything better), try recording on a single-layer DVD, and whatever else I can figure.

Having said all that, I have to say that my DL recording does look a bit better than a prior recording of the same movie made onto a single-layer disk. The source origin was different (Verizon rather than Amazon) and the DVD recorder was a Toshiba. Also sitting farther away from the monitor helps, as expected.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the discussion - if anyone knows of a higher quality HDMI to AV converter than my MINI brand, I'd love to hear your experience with any other device. Thanks for responding!

[johnmeyer]

IMHO, you are wasting money on gold-plated RCA cables. Your existing cables would have to have spent the past two years in the ocean to become corroded enough to degrade the signal in a way that you would notice (OK, that's an exaggeration...). Remember that the audio signal is only 20 kHz and the video signal is approximately 5 MHz, so the waveguide characteristics of the cable don't matter much, the way that they do with RG-59 or RG-6 coax cable. In that case, the quality of the cable makes a difference, and using the better RG-6 can produce better quality.

The most likely cause of any degradation (if indeed you actually have any) is from the digital encoding. You always want to have as few encoding steps as possible, and definitely want to make sure that the video is only encoded once between the source and the final bits on your DVD.

[LMotlow]

So I have a fair amount of experimenting to do in order to find the cause of the mid-level quality. After your helpful note, LMotlow, I think some of the factors you mentioned are in operation here.

LP is low quality, EP and FR are the pits. Been there. What's wrong with 3 and a half hours at SP? The long reording settings are strictly utilitarian at best.

But I'm also wondering about the source (Amazon Fire-Stick). Also wondering about the device I have to use to get the Amazon HDMI signal into the DVD recorder inputs, an inexpensive MINI HDMI to AV converter box and, of course the RCA cables to route the signal to the DVD recorder. There's a lot of opportunities for signal degradation here.

No surprise. A proper HDMI to analog converter will cost you well into 3 figures and beyond.

I'll invest in high-quality RCA cables (maybe gold-plated)

I can echo johnmeyer there. How much gold can you be getting at those low prices? Gold isn't the best conductor, BTW. Look at your incoming cable and other connections -- won't see any gold there. Main cable supplied by Big Brother would be copper-chromium alloy or similar, not gold.

[filmboss80]

Also, you DO realize that your DVD recorder will only record standard definition, not high-definition, right? The HD in HDMI is for High Definition, and only way to get an HDMI signal playable in your DVD recorder is to downconvert to standard def. And surely you also know that RCA inputs are analog, not digital, right? Again, you'd be degrading the signal even further. It has already been stated that any reliable downconverter is likely going to cost quite a bit, and in the end, you will still get a crappy standard resolution analog-back-to-digital image.

It seems to me that you are spinning your wheels on a folly project.

[orsetto]

But I'm also wondering about the source (Amazon Fire-Stick). Also wondering about the device I have to use to get the Amazon HDMI signal into the DVD recorder inputs, an inexpensive MINI HDMI to AV converter box and, of course the RCA cables to route the signal to the DVD recorder. There's a lot of opportunities for signal degradation here.

I understand exactly what you're trying to do, since I use the same hookup myself occasionally. The most important thing when attempting to dub High Def HDMI sources to a DVD recorder is (drumroll): lower your expectations. Drastically.

A dvd recorder on its best day, recording at XP speed directly from its own off-air 16:9 tuner, may come respectably close to a High Def source like the FireStick. But the minute you connect an external video source to the line inputs of a dvd recorder, you lose a big chunk of potential quality. This applies to separate broadcast tuners, cable boxes, satellite boxes: anything that connects externally will result in recorded PQ thats noticeably worse than what you get from a major broadcast station via the internal ATSC tuner. This goes double for any HDMI>Composite converter: I have yet to try one that wasn't mediocre at best and terrible at worst. They all degrade the signal via their cheap downconverter chips, so what looks great on your TV via direct HDMI looks pretty dull and lifeless thru the converter, and worse after its encoded a second time by the DVD recorder. Changing the RCA cables won't help, and may make things worse (perversely, many "gold" cables are very poor quality compared to ordinary RCA cables).

There is remarkably little difference in performance between the dozen or so brands of HDMI>Composite converter: they all essentially suck. They allow you to make a dvd recording of something that may not be possible to capture in any other way, at the price of it looking not much better than VHS. Personally I'm satisfied with that for the occasional special project, because its better than nothing, but I wouldn't be happy with it as my day-to-day quality level. The "MINI" variation of HDMI converter supposedly has the best performance of the lot, so changing to another brand won't net you any picture improvement. OTOH, if you plan to make heavy use of a converter, investing $40-$50 in a more sturdy model with a metal case and direct AC power supply may be more reliable and convenient (I use this one). But none of the one-box HDMI converters are great: to approach the quality you get when recording from the Panasonic internal tuner, you would need a premium HDMI>component converter + a premium component>composite converter, which together would run around $400. Not really worth it.

The FR function can be a little tricky to operate in Panasonics: it isn't always clear how to make it do exactly what you want. Depending on the running time of what you need to record, the best possible quality would come from manually selecting the highest XP speed. That works out to approx 105mins per DL disc. If your goal is max recording quality, see if you can break things into 60 minute (SL) or 105 minute (DL) chunks, and just default to manual XP setting. Don't worry about unused space left on each disc: blanks are cheap today. FR may help you make more efficient use of disc capacity, but it doesn't always result in maximum picture quality. XP iis your best bet.

[JohnR]

No, I had no idea that DVD recorders only record in standard definition. I wonder if they make HD DVD recorders (more stuff to research), what a rude awakening! It appears I don't stand a chance without an HD DVD recorder, but that is just not in the budget for this year. If anyone out there knows of a "ConsumerReportsBestBuy" type of unit, make me aware, but that's probably being unrealistic.

I tried using SP with 3.25 hours but results were the same, as I expected. I believe that when you use Flex recording, the FlexP over-rules any other setting used (XP, SP, LP,EP), but I thought it best to check it out anyway.

My understanding about electrical conductors is that silver is the best conductor, followed by gold and then copper. Gold coated connectors are probably used because gold is the "gold standard", and because gold does not tarnish but silver does. I couldn't find much on chrome-copper alloys as electrical conductors although they are used where strength is a factor.

My tuner (antenna-based) on the Panasonic produces a remarkably good image (better than the Amazon, I think), so I'll be looking into recording off the air, but probably SD is SD. I'll try it.

Thanks for the suggestion on the HDMI -> AV converter, I'll keep that in mind for future reference. Again, thanks to all & have a Happy Holiday.