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  1. Hi all,

    I have old Pinnacle DV-500 video capture card, which transfer analog formats VHS, Hi8 to native DV resolution (plus digital to digital firewire capture for DV source), and the quality of these analog formats in PC look almost identical to original.

    Now I want to upscale them to full HD resolution 1080P, without or very little degradation from original material.

    Shall I continue use DV-500 hardware and then upscale DV to HD 1080P resolution using software?
    Or buy new capture card like Pinnacle Dazzle, or BlackMagic Intensity pro 4K which can upscale SD to HD during capture and save it in ProRes and DNxHD or uncompressed files?

    I know Pinnacle DV-500 is high quality capture use something called native capture which is identical to original source. Something I donít see it anymore, and not sure if new hardware's are better or less quality in this regard.

    Please can someone tell me precisely about this issue, because I wont to know for sure if worth or not buying a new hardware.

    And thank you for answering.
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  2. I like the old ATI all in wonder pro cards. In my opinion they are hard to beat. I did all my tapes lossless with these. The problem is you will need an older motherboard to fit these cards. But you should be able to pick up a very cheap computer on Ebay from this era.
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    Originally Posted by Kmroc View Post
    Hi all,

    I have old Pinnacle DV-500 video capture card, which transfer analog formats VHS, Hi8 to native DV resolution (plus digital to digital firewire capture for DV source), and the quality of these analog formats in PC look almost identical to original.

    Now I want to upscale them to full HD resolution 1080P, without or very little degradation from original material.

    Shall I continue use DV-500 hardware and then upscale DV to HD 1080P resolution using software?
    Or buy new capture card like Pinnacle Dazzle, or BlackMagic Intensity pro 4K which can upscale SD to HD during capture and save it in ProRes and DNxHD or uncompressed files?

    I know Pinnacle DV-500 is high quality capture use something called Pinnacle DV-500 which is identical to original source. Something I don’t see it anymore, and not sure if new hardware's are better or less quality in this regard.

    Please can someone tell me precisely about this issue, because I wont to know for sure if worth or not buying a new hardware.

    And thank you for answering.
    Upscaling from SD to 1080p should be done using software after capturing, but will never look as good as native 1080p video. The amount of detail available from the original SD recording is insufficient to make that possible even when the original recording was made with a DV camera.

    The intensity Pro 4K is a poor choice for SD analog capture (especially NTSC sources), and nobody here thinks the Pinnacle Dazzle is anything special. It is hard to make a recommendation for an SD analog capture device without knowing the country where a poster resides and the video system used for the recordings. Some devices have a limited geographical distribution. There are also few devices which only work or only work well for NTSC analog sources, so they are not a good choice for someone converting PAL analog recordings. You should capture SD analog sources using a lossless codec rather than capturing uncompressed video to reduce the file size without loosing any quality. DNxHD and ProRes are both somewhat lossy. HuffYUV, Lagarith, and UT Video are lossless

    If at all possible, recordings stored on DV tapes should always be transferred to a PC using a Firewire (IEEE-1394) connection and appropriate software. If DV file transfer via Firewire on the Pinnacle DV-500 no longer functions, there are still relatively inexpensive new PCI and PCI-e Firewire cards available (without analog capture) that would allow DV file transfer, and third-party software that still works.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 14th Oct 2016 at 11:29. Reason: clarity
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  4. Thank you very much for reply. The informations very helpful.

    As for video system, i have both Pal and NTC, but Pal is most important becuse many tapes in Pal.

    About Intensity Pro 4K, in case codec issue, if I capture in uncompressed will make it identical to source ?

    Also what about BlackMagic DeckLink cards?
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    Originally Posted by Kmroc View Post
    About Intensity Pro 4K, in case codec issue, if I capture in uncompressed will make it identical to source ?
    Members here who have one have the following complaints about the Intensity Pro 4K:
    1. The built-in TBC is ineffective. It is still necessary to use an external TBC when capturing from analog tapes.
    2. The fan is very loud.
    3. The Intensity Pro 4K has a 2D comb filter. A 3D comb filter is better. (A comb filter reduces dot-crawl noise when capturing from a composite video connection (CVBS))
    4. When capturing an NTSC tape it produces an off-center 720x480 frame letterboxed in a 720x486 frame. To get rid of the added black lines and the VBI, it is necessary to to crop 9-10 lines off the top.
    5. There are no Proc Amp controls through DirectShow to adjust brightness, contrast, etc. when using third party software like Virtualdub.

    Capturing uncompressed doesn't make the capture identical to the source. The digitized video may still look different from the original.

    Capturing uncompressed only ensures that there are no compression artifacts in the digitized file. Using lossless codecs for capture does the same thing, but produces smaller files.

    Originally Posted by Kmroc View Post
    Also what about BlackMagic DeckLink cards?
    I don't know anything about how well those work for analog capture.
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    Originally Posted by Kmroc View Post
    I know Pinnacle DV-500 is high quality capture use something called native capture which is identical to original source.
    I fear that's pure marketing hype. The DV encoding scheme is quite good, but it is lossy and suffers from certain artifacts, particularly in regard to its 4:1:1 color subsampling. Those deficiencies will be literally magnified when you upscale it to 1080P. These days, you can buy a USB converter dongle for less than $70 that will give you uncompressed video with 4:2:2 subsampling. Save it to disk using a lossless codec (such as HuffYUV or Lagarith), then perform highest-quality deinterlacing (QTGMC) and upscaling using Avisynth. As always, the better picture you obtain in the analog realm (proper levels and stabilization), the better will be the digital result.
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  7. Member godai's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by david151 View Post
    I like the old ATI all in wonder pro cards. In my opinion they are hard to beat. I did all my tapes lossless with these. The problem is you will need an older motherboard to fit these cards. But you should be able to pick up a very cheap computer on Ebay from this era.
    i read that before, but its not posible do it using an old os in a modern machine?

    probably in that case you need something for vhs protection of ati software
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  8. Dinosaur Supervisor KarMa's Avatar
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    I still like my Hauppauge HVR 1250, which can do lossless 4:2:2 or use the on board MPEG2 chip for 4:2:0. Seems to be indifferent to Macrovision nor false alert on what it might think is Macrovision. But requires a PCI-E 1x slot.

    Originally Posted by Kmroc View Post
    Or buy new capture card like Pinnacle Dazzle, or BlackMagic Intensity pro 4K which can upscale SD to HD during capture and save it in ProRes and DNxHD or uncompressed files?
    Sounds like a bad idea and a waste of space. Should just upscale it at the very last stage.
    Last edited by KarMa; 14th Oct 2016 at 19:50. Reason: grammer edit
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    Originally Posted by KarMa View Post
    I still like my Hauppauge HVR 1250, which can do lossless 4:2:2 or use the on board MPEG2 chip for 4:2:0. Seems to be indifferent to Macrovision nor false alert on what it might thinks is Macrovision. But requires a PCI-E 1x slot.
    Hauppauge has replaced that model with the WinTV-HVR-1265 in N. America and the WinTV-HVR-5525 in DVB-T countries. Both models encode analog video input using software, so using them with something other than Hauppauge's included WinTV software should still allow lossess capture. The original HVR-1250 had a 3D comb filter, and hopefully these do as well.

    Yes, upscaling the video along with encoding to a lossy format for convenience should be the last steps.
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  10. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
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    A couple intriguing options that have been posted about recently:

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Members here who have one have the following complaints about the Intensity Pro 4K:
    2. The fan is very loud.
    This is the one thing they actually fixed -- after months of complaints from professionals and newbies alike. Maybe it still kicks in at times, but not in my usage.

    4. When capturing an NTSC tape it produces an off-center 720x480 frame letterboxed in a 720x486 frame. To get rid of the added black lines and the VBI, it is necessary to to crop 9-10 lines off the top.
    And the lines that it crops from the bottom are lost forever, of course.

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet
    I don't know anything about how well [BlackMagic DeckLink cards] work for analog capture.
    The Intensity Pro 4K is a stripped-down DeckLink card, so the situation isn't confidence-inspiring:
    Last edited by Brad; 15th Oct 2016 at 03:45.
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  11. Thank you all for help and support.
    Sound I have very little choices, Hauppauge and "maybe" ATI depend if i find right model at moment. So these will not lower picture quality during capture?
    Is their better option ?
    Last edited by Kmroc; 15th Oct 2016 at 04:07.
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    The ATI All-in-Wonder cards which receive the most praise for analog capture use the Theatre 200 chipsets and were made prior to 2004. They require an AGP slot. The later AIW cards from 2004 to 2007 which install in a PCI-e slot are not as well thought of. None of the AGP AIW cards have drivers for anything other than Windows XP 32-bit. I think even the PCI-e models require using Windows XP 32-bit. A separate sound card is needed for audio because these cards don't do a good job with audio capture. See the discussion at http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/6938-ati-wonder-helps.html
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  13. Please can you tell me or show me link for particular model?
    I found 9600 XT 128 MB AGP Graphics Card and 9800 Pro 128 MB 8X AGP Graphics Card, but not sure video captures.
    Also, what type of file they save and resolution?
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  14. Originally Posted by godai View Post
    Originally Posted by david151 View Post
    I like the old ATI all in wonder pro cards. In my opinion they are hard to beat. I did all my tapes lossless with these. The problem is you will need an older motherboard to fit these cards. But you should be able to pick up a very cheap computer on Ebay from this era.
    i read that before, but its not posible do it using an old os in a modern machine?

    probably in that case you need something for vhs protection of ati software

    No because you need a motherboard with an AGP slot. But that's really no problem, you could buy a very cheap computer with an AGP slot for almost nothing. Plus it does not matter that they need XP, it's not as though you will be connecting it to the internet.
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    Why not consider an Avermedia M780. I really liked mine, choice of mpeg-2 HW encoder or uncompressed > Huffy or similar.

    Worked great through iuVCR and I assume AmarecTV works but never tried it. It's a PCIe x1 card.

    About $20 used on Ebay
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    Originally Posted by Kmroc View Post
    Please can you tell me or show me link for particular model?
    I found 9600 XT 128 MB AGP Graphics Card and 9800 Pro 128 MB 8X AGP Graphics Card, but not sure video captures.
    Also, what type of file they save and resolution?
    The 9800 Pro is one of the recommended ones. Here is a review of the card: https://www.cnet.com/products/ati-all-in-wonder-9800-pro/review/ Note that most of the AIW cards came with a specialized break-out cable to provide connections for analog capture. That piece is often missing when the card is purchased used. I don't think all of the break-out cables used the same pin-out either, so using the break-out cable from a different model may not work.

    Re-reading the thread I linked to at digitalfaq.com, if you use the included software, the card captures MPEG-2 video in an MPG container, but it is possible to use Virtualdub instead and capture using a lossless codec in an AVI container.

    They only capture video in standard definition resolutions if you are using a standard definition source.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 15th Oct 2016 at 14:22.
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  17. I found 9800 pro new and ready to buy, only problem I couldn't find locally through my dealer the AGP board, I'm continue searching. In case couldn't work, would Hauppauge or Magewell or Avermedia M780 better than Pinnacle DV-500?
    Last edited by Kmroc; 16th Oct 2016 at 07:44.
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    Originally Posted by Kmroc View Post
    I found 9800 pro new and ready to buy, only problem I couldn't find locally through my dealer the AGP board, I'm continue searching. In case couldn't work, would Hauppauge or Magewell or Avermedia M780 better than Pinnacle DV-500?
    The reasons to stay with an all DV workflow for both analog and DV tapes would be convenience and cost, assuming that someone already has most of the hardware and software they need. If one is used to doing things a particular way, learning to do something new can be difficult.

    If the Pinnacle DV-500 only allows capturing an analog signal as DV, then any good device that allows capturing an analog signal with a lossless codec would technically be better, particularly if someone plans to upscale the video because DV compression artifacts will be magnified during upscaling. If someone is starting with a DV tape, the recording already has compression artifacts. In that case, staying with a DV workflow makes more sense than re-capturing using a lossless codec.
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  19. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
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    I think you need to evaluate whether DV compression artifacts or any other anomalies of your current captures actually bother you before investing in new equipment.
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    @Kmroc I read your other thread related to this project.

    Upscaling your video would make sense if a project required combining it with HD footage for some reason. However, I agree with what jagabo said in your other thread -- it doesn't make sense to upscale merely to watch the video when most TVs and media players do a good job upscaling video on their own. ...but converting from DV to something else for the sake of present and future playability does make sense because other than DV cameras and computers, what else do you own that will play DV video?
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  21. Ok, I transferred DV tapes through IEEE 1394 card and working good with Panasonic NV-DV2000 (Pal only). Sadly, I discovered my Pinnacle DV500 not working, I still need Ntc capture for my analog tapes Hi8. I tried feed Ntc through DV2000 but couldnít process it to Pal as no image.

    What option for analog Ntc capture ? (is there Nto to pal convertor used between Ntc camcorder and NV-dv200)

    Someone here mention USB converter dongle less than $70 will give uncompressed video with 4:2:2 subsampling, is recording high quality same as original?

    If not what about Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1265 or Avermedia M780 ?
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    Originally Posted by Kmroc View Post
    Ok, I transferred DV tapes through IEEE 1394 card and working good with Panasonic NV-DV2000 (Pal only). Sadly, I discovered my Pinnacle DV500 not working, I still need Ntc capture for my analog tapes Hi8. I tried feed Ntc through DV2000 but couldnít process it to Pal as no image.

    What option for analog Ntc capture ? (is there Nto to pal convertor used between Ntc camcorder and NV-dv200)
    Just to be certain, you mean NTSC capture? (NTSC = analog video system used in N. America and Japan).

    An NTSC to PAL video converter would probably not provide the kind of quality that you want.

    Originally Posted by Kmroc View Post
    Someone here mention USB converter dongle less than $70 will give uncompressed video with 4:2:2 subsampling, is recording high quality same as original?
    The USB capture dongles that currently receive the most recommendations here (Hauppauge USB Live 2 and I-O DATA GV-USB2) don't have a 3D comb filter. Although they are good, they are not capable of producing the best possible quality for composite video/CVBS captures.

    While looking for information about the I-O DATA GV-USB2, I found this video (probably posted by someone who has a connection with the makers of the FEBON264 device). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnnNyc8m8yo The FEBON264 looks interesting, but I know nothing about it. This is the first I have ever heard of it.

    This is the only source I found for the FEBON264: http://en.camerafistore.com/product/febon264/142/

    Originally Posted by Kmroc View Post
    If not what about Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1265 or Avermedia M780 ?
    The Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1265 is still made, but it may be hard to obtain outside N. America. It has a 3D comb filter, and encodes with software so lossless captures are possible.

    The Avermedia M780 is discontinued. ...and is capture direct to MPEG-2 acceptable to you? It has a 3D comb filter, but uses a hardware encoder for capture, so MPEG-2 video is the only type of video this card can produce
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 18th Feb 2017 at 11:43. Reason: grammar
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    I'm using an HVR-1250 under linux for my analog VHS captures. I'm currently capturing raw to an SSD before encoding with lossless HUFFYUV / FLAC for archiving / further processing. The HVR-1250 has no problem picking up native PAL resolution. And I'm getting better quality material for postprocessing than with my DVD recorder or using a USB dongle. In terms of quality:

    - no name cheap USB dongle: heavy horizontal jitter, bad color
    - DVD recorder: stable picture but color artifacts (could be because of internal NTSC conversion; the analog output will always be NTSC and never PAL)
    - Hauppauge HVR-1250: minimal horizontal jitter which I may be able to iron out with an external TBC, but otherwise smooth picture with good colors. External color correction using a Vidicraft VDM-200 yields worse results with a fat horizontal bar at the bottom of the screen which is probably due to the source not being NTSC. I'm currently doing minimal color correction using v4l (video for linux) adjustments on capture
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    The Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1265 is an updated version of the Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1250. The only major difference is probably a new and improved ATSC-NTSC tuner.
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    I found another source for the FEBON264: http://www.febon.net/products/usb20-febon264-uvc-cvbs-capture-card

    Looking at the specs at http://www.febon.net/products/usb20-febon264-uvc-cvbs-capture-card, the FEBON264 may not be the right device to use for this application.

    If it has no option for interlaced video output and can only output progressive NTSC resolution video at 30fps, then it is discarding half the interlaced fields rather than deinterlacing all of them. Too bad. It is the first SD USB grabber I've seen that claims to have a 3D comb filter.
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    The USB capture dongles that currently receive the most recommendations here (Hauppauge USB Live 2 and I-O DATA GV-USB2)
    I'm looking for a similar product so are these USB dongles a good alternative to the internal cards?
    Also I've looked feedback on Amazon and these two dongles don't appear on the top of the results.
    Could you please give more information?
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  27. Looking to comparing Hauppauge:
    http://www.hauppauge.com/site/compare/compare_tuners.html?#tabs-2

    Seems HVR-1265 (which replaced HVR-1250) is 2D comb filter, are both 1265 and 1250 exact ?
    However, WinTV-HVR-2255 is 3D comb filterr but its Dual hardware MPEG-2 encoders, is recording better ?
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    Originally Posted by Kmroc View Post
    Looking to comparing Hauppauge:
    http://www.hauppauge.com/site/compare/compare_tuners.html?#tabs-2

    Seems HVR-1265 (which replaced HVR-1250) is 2D comb filter, are both 1265 and 1250 exact ?
    Apparently they are not the same. The HVR-1250 has a 3D filter according to the specs I saw a few years ago. The HVR-1250 used a Conexant CX23887 chip for analog decoding which has a 3D comb filter. http://205.175.208.33/products/entry.jsp?id=454

    Originally Posted by Kmroc View Post
    Looking to comparing Hauppauge:
    However, WinTV-HVR-2255 is 3D comb filterr but its Dual hardware MPEG-2 encoders, is recording better ?
    I have the older version of that card, the WINTV HVR-2250, which I mostly use to record TV. You can only capture in MPEG-2 and MPEG1 Layer 2 audio format with either of these cards. Most capture software won't work with them on account of the hardware encoder, and that will be true for any card which only allows hardware encoding.

    What does work: WinTV 8, GraphEdit, GraphStudio, or various Media Center programs for HTPCs like NextPVR and WMC. GraphEdit and GrapStudio provide direct access to the hardware encoder's video bitrate settings, but you need to build your own filter graph. The others have "Good", "Better", "Best" settings.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 20th Feb 2017 at 11:54.
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    Originally Posted by tried View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    The USB capture dongles that currently receive the most recommendations here (Hauppauge USB Live 2 and I-O DATA GV-USB2)
    I'm looking for a similar product so are these USB dongles a good alternative to the internal cards?
    Also I've looked feedback on Amazon and these two dongles don't appear on the top of the results.
    Could you please give more information?
    If you want answers from me, start your own thread. I have decided not to enable thread hijacking.
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  30. Seems there are many different models of same card.
    Anybody know where i can buy exact model HVR-1250 which have 3d comb filter ?
    (hopefully is perfect recording and losseless)
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